Raising sub-adult discus in a planted tank??

[Mxx]

How big should discus be before they might thrive in a planted tank? Would 4" potentially work?

As I plan my first discus display tank, which will be a large planted display tank, many of you have contributed your advice to my previous question, and thanks for that. One piece of advice I keep hearing repeated is not to raise juveniles in a planted tank, and that you should only use adults instead. I've been searching the site for reasons why this is, and I'm seeing suggestions ranging from them hiding all the time to the fact that they need lots of food and therefore you can't possibly keep a planted tank clean enough. However I'm also getting different views that adults don't acclimate as well to a new tank or planted tank, and that discus often become more confident and less skittish when raised in an environment where they have the option to find cover if spooked.

I don't want to raise small juveniles, but the largest stock that I seem from most breeders is about 4". I've asked one breeder that I've been talking to if and at what cost he could rear one tankful of discus for me until they add an extra inch or two, but thus far haven't had a response.

My planned tank would be a high-tech planted tank of probably 300 gallons. (72x30x30) is what I'm looking at now. I'd have a 40 gallon bio-filter sump filled with submerged bio-medium which acts both aerobically and anaerobically in order to eliminate nitrates as well as ammonia, a plant scrubber to create a wall of terrestrial plants behind the tank, would use Phosguard to eliminate phosphates, and I'd have an ozone reactor and carbon reactor as well. I'd do water changes as often as proves necessary to maintain high water quality parameters, via an automated overflow system. The substrate would be densely planted as well, and from what I've heard from planted tank people, it would actually be likely that I'd need to dose nitrates to keep the plants in top form (which would however a secondary consideration to rearing healthy discus for me).

I was thinking of starting with maybe 18-24 four inch discus, if I can't get them any larger at a reasonable price. I could feed frozen food twice a day, and could use an automated pellet feeder to provide an additional 3 or 4 feedings. I would probably start with fish-less cycling, and then add a clean-up crew shortly thereafter, followed by the discus when things prove fully stable.

I've kept planted tanks before, so I'm not so worried about that aspect of it. But with this size of a tank, that amount of plants and filtration, and basically only the sub-adult discus to deal with I'm relatively confident that maintaining high water quality in spite of intense feeding should not be that much of a problem. And when, (or if?) they reach 6" in size then I would sell a few to get down to about 8 to 12, and eventually add some other fish as water quality permits when they reach full-size at which time I could reduce the feeding regimen.

I was thinking about raising sub-adults to maturity in a bare tank, but to do that for a dozen almost mature discus I'd still need a very large rearing tank. And I don't want to have to successively set up a 55, and a 150, and the 300 gallon tank, and a 29 quarantine tank of course, just to raise some decent discus.

Thus, I would like to hear what different people have to say about whether this would work, and if not then specifically why it might not? Thanks!

[dawrtw]

I have 22, 3-1/2" to 4" fish in a 220 gal planted tank. They are growing and nearly always out, especially at feeding time. I don't think they are growing any faster than the ones in my 46 BB tank but they don't seem to be growing any slower either. The one thing I did do however is increase the number of cats in my clean up crew. This is in hopes of staying on top of any food missed by that many discus.
Working for me.

[jball1125]

4" discus can definitely thrive in a 300 gallon tank provided you do enough water changes. Its not impossible to grow discus in a planted tank its just harder ( a lot harder ). However at 4" you should be good. Make sure you get discus that still have the potential to grow. I would suggest one of our sponsors.

[Mxx]

Tracy, that's encouraging, thanks. The topic of uneaten food was something I'd always wondered about. Does it really make any difference in terms of tank health whether uneaten food decomposes or whether it is consumed by bottom feeders? Doesn't it eventually impact the tank health and bio-load to precisely the same extent?

And Jball, apart from the care necessary for the plants, why is harder to grow discus in a planted tank? The precise why's are really the things I'm looking for in posing this question, so that I can try to address them in advance and design those pitfalls out of the system as much as possible. Is it that any detritus is difficult to remove? Or is it that plants and discus have requirements that contradict one another? I think the care necessary to achieve a decent planted tank is well worth it though, and that they can help the health of the system significantly. I do appreciate that you have to be careful with dosing CO2 and fertilizer for plants, to ensure those are not a detriment to the discus of course, but using hardy plants can help make this easier as well. If ammonia/nitrites/nitrates/&phosphates are virtually non-existent , as is often the case with even well stocked planted tanks, (and KH and PH are appropriately buffered), then are there any other factors that I could use as my guide for determining water change frequencies?

A planted tank is of course an altogether different approach than the usual bare sterile rearing tank I appreciate, but that in itself doesn't mean that it can't be done successfully I don't expect, at least so far as the system capacity is such that uneaten food and the breakdown of any mulm aren't causing any water problems. But adequate planting and filtration to cope with that is not something that many people have from the sound of it.

[dawrtw]

Waste and uneaten food both have to be dealt with. I really don't count my cats as part of my bioload. I feel like any waste they create is cancelled out by what they clean up. There are times that I feed a little heavy, if I do then I do water changes a little more often. (after feeding beef heart etc.) Practicing good common sence should always followed.

[jball1125]

Discus grow best when they are provided two things. Lots of food and lost of clean water. When you add gravel/sand to an aquarium you are making it that much harder to remove waste. However at 4 inches you could slow down on the feeding which makes the cleanup easier. I recommend that you get the plants stabalized before you get into the discus. That will help because a heavily planted tank will give you the advantage of not having ammonia spikes when adding a lot of fish.

[dbfzurowski]

Take a look at this

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?170-avionics30-(Chad-H)

[Mxx]

Take a look at this

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?170-avionics30-(Chad-H)

Thanks, I'd skimmed through that thread while looking for answers on another matter at the time, so it will be helpful to go through that more carefully now. So in a year's time his six discus had grown from 3" to 6.5" in a year's time in a moderately planted tank, with water changes only every week or two. I suppose that in itself proves there isn't necessarily a problem with doing it, but I'll have to read through his posts in greater detail to find out more.

[Mxx]

Discus grow best when they are provided two things. Lots of food and lost of clean water. When you add gravel/sand to an aquarium you are making it that much harder to remove waste. However at 4 inches you could slow down on the feeding which makes the cleanup easier. I recommend that you get the plants stabalized before you get into the discus. That will help because a heavily planted tank will give you the advantage of not having ammonia spikes when adding a lot of fish.

They also say that you can add a decent amount of fish the day after planting a heavily planted tank, as the plants will prevent any sort of ammonia spike. Nevertheless I'd want to make sure the system is stable and the plants are well rooted and achieving good growth rates before I'd add discus and dial down the CO2, especially if I'm to use mineralized top soil as the sub-substrate as many people recommend which can cause some fluctuations initially.

I agree that in a planted tank with substrate it is much more difficult to remove waste, and that's why I was saying in a planted tank you may have to approach things in a different way. And as with other animals, there is more than one way to skin a discus. So if you can't remove all the solid waste physically, then you can let the remaining waste be broken down and removed biologically, hence the mega biofilter and plant filtration. So instead of relying merely upon water changes alone to remove organic waste, filtration of this sort may be able to make a substantial contribution to keeping the water clean of any by-products resulting from biological activity. Thus, despite the plants and substrate, you needn't necessarily worry about the waste as it will quickly be consumed by the plants and filtration anyway, capacity permitting of course.

In any case, in your view is maintaining pristine water conditions in a planted tank the extent of the problem, or is there any other inherent difference in how discus behave in a planted tank which makes it a greater challenge?

[discuspaul]

I've kept juvie discus (all of about 3" from the outset) in 3 different moderately planted tanks over the past year or so, with what I consider to be reasonably good success. My first batch of 3" fish is now adult - beautiful Cobalt, Red Melon, RSG, and others, over 5" at this point, now being kept by my daughter. My most recent discus set-up is a 75 gal. in which I'm raising 10 juvie Red Snakeskins and Flamingos. They were acquired just a short time ago @ 3", and are currently over 4" and growing well.
I do, and have always done, about 50% w/c's 2-3 X weekly, with vacuum & meticulous tank clean up with each W/C. The discus are fed 4 - 6 X daily, every 2 or 3 hours, all they can eat in under 3-4 minutes. Vey little, if any, food ever lingers on the bottom.
The tank gets filtration via 2 - AC 110's HOB, and I use pool filter sand - which is very easily cleaned.
I've had no problems with the fish, nor the plants, the latter which get root tab ferts, and 2 X 3 weekly dosing with Excel and Comprehensive. Judging by the the Discus' behavior, they're pleased with their planted environment, and so am I. Works very well for me & I'm sticking with it - no BB for me !

[discuspaul]

P.S. IMHO the big, and only, challenge of raising discus in a planted tank is "in the mind's eye" as they say.
No question that maintaining pristine water conditions in a BB tank is an easier task - and certainly more "work" in a planted tank. However, if you're up to that ( i.e. no 'lazybones' - and I'm not suggesting that BB tank adherents are lazy - perhaps some are - the others may simply feel they can raise healthier fish quicker, and to a larger size in a BB, and perhaps that's so) - the results are rewarding in a planted environment - the fish look better, so does the tank, and I believe you'll feel better about it yourself.

[scottthomas]

How big should discus be before they might thrive in a planted tank? Would 4" potentially work?

I would think 4" is no problem, they are almost grown. You could probably start even smaller and cost less. I have seen some nice fish in a planted tank start smaller size and grow well. I have even raised some in planted environment.


perhaps some are - the others may simply feel they can raise healthier fish quicker, and to a larger size in a BB, and perhaps that's so) - the results are rewarding in a planted environment - the fish look better, so does the tank, and I believe you'll feel better about it yourself.

Its all in the eye of the beholder. Over the years my tastes have changed and I prefer seeing discus in a bb or biotope style setting rather than a heavy planted tank. Is much like seeing African Rift lake cichlids in a heavy planted tank. Something unatural to me. I ndo have planted tank but no discus. :)

[jimg]

I have had adult fish last years in a planted tank. the smaller juveniles always seemed to have problems.
Keep in mind, no matter how much you try to keep it clean, you cannot clean too much around the roots without killing the plants (which could be good places for nasties to multiply). Also unless your on a good balanced fertilizer schedule, the plants can suffer from too clean water.
I think if your discus come from a quality source and don't add any lfs fish you have better chances. A lot of problems can arise from when the algae gets heavy people add lfs algae eaters which can be carriers.
I don't mean to turn you off doing it, I'm just giving some points I found with my tanks.
IMHO there are reasons why most use bb with discus beside being easier to maintain.
Nothing is nicer than a planted tank with discus, but I found the nicest times are the fewest times. some can have the nicest tanks you'll ever see, but ask them in a couple years what happened!
After all I just said I would do it again, it is nice to see and it is a challenge!

[scottthomas]

bb with discus beside being easier to maintain. You have a good point and not trying to diuade anyone from trying planted discus but parasites can be a nighmare to get out of a planted system. for example flukes. Just be sure to get a quality stock to start and quarantine everything that goes in that tank.

[Mxx]

I have had adult fish last years in a planted tank. the smaller juveniles always seemed to have problems.

What kinds of problems with the smaller juveniles, if you don't mind being specific?

And is it best in that case to quarantine AND medicinally treat (as some sort of a preventitive measure) any fish before they go into the tank? Including the discus, even if they come from a reputable local breeder?

[Mxx]

I would think 4" is no problem, they are almost grown. You could probably start even smaller and cost less. I have seen some nice fish in a planted tank start smaller size and grow well. I have even raised some in planted environment.
Its all in the eye of the beerholder. Over the years my tastes have changed and I prefer seeing discus in a bb or biotope style setting rather than a heavy planted tank. Is much like seeing African Rift lake cichlids in a heavy planted tank. Something unatural to me. I ndo have planted tank but no discus. :)

Quite interesting that I'd received far more positive and encouraging responses and accounts from members than I'd expected! From other comments I'd heard previously it made it sound as if we could never achieve anything beyond stunted runts from trying to grow them in a well-planted tank.*

I don't at all mind starting with 4" discus. The 3" ones are not actually that much cheaper and starting a little larger would increase my chances of success slightly. Larger would get me a faster start as well in any case, and a 300 gallon tank with dense cover is pretty massive for a group of quite small fish. For discussions sake, at 3" in size do you think they'd fare about as well as 4" fish would though?

To some degree I'd be aspiring to emulate a biotope tank, but clearly not accurately in every detail. I believe there is a happy balance that can be found there as well. I've been at work finding sources of wood which would help me to achieve the look of relatively vertical downward style slightly branching roots. And I'd use a decent Amazonia 3D background as well. I have to think that wild discus surely do spend some time mingling with plants and submerged vegetation for certain parts of the year. For during the flood season they spread throughout the flooded forest to breed and feed amongst the undergrowth and the trees. And I certainly don't really want just a muddy bottomed tank with some bits of wood in order to mimic the natural habitiat.

I've also been searching for UK breeders that produce captive bred natural colour discus, but after a preliminary look hadn't found anything. I do love some of the wild strains of greens, blues, and Heckels, but would only be interested if they were several generation captive-bred. I do like the Brilliant Turquoise strain as well, as it retains some natural colour and patterning still.

[scottthomas]

Quite interesting that I'd received far more positive and encouraging responses and accounts from members than I'd expected! From other comments I'd heard previously it made it sound as if we could never achieve anything beyond stunted runts from trying to grow them in a well-planted tank

There have been several posts here over the years where people kept and grew nice discus in a planted tank. However, most documented attempts by those who have never kept discus have been a little disappointing. Often resulting in less than ideal discus as far as size, and often problems with sickness or disease etc. No doubt it can be done but just a little harder (not easier) in my humble opinion. You sound like you are doing homework and have a well planned out idea of what to do consequently you will likely be one that realizes some measure of success IMO.


For discussions sake, at 3" in size do you think they'd fare about as well as 4" fish would though



You have a good point. In a tank that large i'm afraid they would be stressed out at a small size. I have even had to put a divider in my 55 gallon in order for the fish to feel secure. Before, they huddle in a corner and skttish. Amazing to see the difference a smaller space makes to their comfort level. They will be healthier and everything that goes with that if they are not stressed.

[scottthomas]

I have to think that wild discus surely do spend some time mingling with plants and submerged vegetation for certain parts of the year. For during the flood season they spread throughout the flooded forest to breed and feed amongst the undergrowth and the trees. And I certainly don't really want just a muddy bottomed tank with some bits of wood in order to mimic the natural habitiat. True- HHHHHMMM mud bottom tank (mbt) ! you may be on to something:)

[jimg]

What kinds of problems with the smaller juveniles, if you don't mind being specific?

And is it best in that case to quarantine AND medicinally treat (as some sort of a preventitive measure) any fish before they go into the tank? Including the discus, even if they come from a reputable local breeder?

problems range from gill flukes,flagellates and bacterial. all fish carry their own share of pathogens. in a planted tank you usually have too much hiding spots for these nasties to multiply and water conditions cannot be kept as clean as they should be. You also really cannot treat a planted tank with many meds at all.The juveniles usually do not tolerate nasties or have the immune as the adults.
Even quarantining good quality fish does not prevent everything,there imo is no med that will clean any fish, many treatments usually just knock the pathogen down to a tolerable level, but they do not eliminate the problem.
In a bb tank you vacuum the bottom wipe sides etc which keep build up of nasties under control, that is why so many have much better results with bb tanks. In a planted tank there is not much you can really wipe clean beside the glass.
don't get me wrong it can be done for some, but IMHO it's a gamble of what will win on a constant basis.
My personal experience from having 2 high tech planted tanks is that any adult in the tank lasted years, (I had one wild that was about 8 years old). and in the 6 years or so I had the planted tanks only one juvenile became an adult.
But as I said this may work fine for you.You may get a few very healthy strong fish and have them grow quickly to adults, where mine may have been weaker or raised under uv with no immune system built up. If I did it again i would expect the same results.

[Mxx]

problems range from gill flukes,flagellates and bacterial. all fish carry their own share of pathogens. in a planted tank you usually have too much hiding spots for these nasties to multiply and water conditions cannot be kept as clean as they should be. You also really cannot treat a planted tank with many meds at all.The juveniles usually do not tolerate nasties or have the immune as the adults.
Even quarantining good quality fish does not prevent everything,there imo is no med that will clean any fish, many treatments usually just knock the pathogen down to a tolerable level, but they do not eliminate the problem.
In a bb tank you vacuum the bottom wipe sides etc which keep build up of nasties under control, that is why so many have much better results with bb tanks. In a planted tank there is not much you can really wipe clean beside the glass.
don't get me wrong it can be done for some, but IMHO it's a gamble of what will win on a constant basis.
My personal experience from having 2 high tech planted tanks is that any adult in the tank lasted years, (I had one wild that was about 8 years old). and in the 6 years or so I had the planted tanks only one juvenile became an adult.
But as I said this may work fine for you.You may get a few very healthy strong fish and have them grow quickly to adults, where mine may have been weaker or raised under uv with no immune system built up. If I did it again i would expect the same results.

Well that's an interesting comment, despite that deeper analysis of this concern necessary to get to the bottom of this would require immersing myself in literature detailing the life cycles of various parasites and pathogens, which doesn't exactly sound like a gripping pursuit... I suppose we'd generally suspect that any pathogens would spend their life cycle on the fish, but I appreciate this isn't true, and that many do spend a cycle free of their hosts.

The wiping down the sides of discus tank I always found to be a bit strange though, for its not as if anyone wipes down every particle of your filtration medium as well, and wouldn't that have the same build-up as a tank's glass?

[Mxx]

You have a good point. In a tank that large i'm afraid they would be stressed out at a small size. I have even had to put a divider in my 55 gallon in order for the fish to feel secure. Before, they huddle in a corner and skttish. Amazing to see the difference a smaller space makes to their comfort level. They will be healthier and everything that goes with that if they are not stressed.

Thanks, and I'm certainly trying to be as thorough as I can in doing all my homework before jumping into this. The small discus you mention in your 55, how many did you have, at what size, and with any cover in the tank? I'd heard that it helps to start with a larger group of juveniles, which is why I was thinking of getting around 20 at the start. And I'd heard that keeping some dither fish such as guppies helps them as well, by making them less skittish and encouraging them to eat with greater enthusiasm. When you say that they'd be stressed out at a small size are you talking there about discus that are 3", while they might be fine at 4" in your opinion?

[scottthomas]

Thanks, and I'm certainly trying to be as thorough as I can in doing all my homework before jumping into this. The small discus you mention in your 55, how many did you have, at what size, and with any cover in the tank? I'd heard that it helps to start with a larger group of juveniles, which is why I was thinking of getting around 20 at the start. And I'd heard that keeping some dither fish such as guppies helps them as well, by making them less skittish and encouraging them to eat with greater enthusiasm. When you say that they'd be stressed out at a small size are you talking there about discus that are 3", while they might be fine at 4" in your opinion?

I had no cover for mine. I have raised hundreds of discus from fry-1.5 inches on up. They do best in large groups the smaller they are. I'm not saying that 3" will be fine anf 4" wont. Just the smaller the discus IME the smaller the tank and bigger the group works best. You may be right with the dither fish idea I have heard that too but not really experienced firrst hand.

[jimg]

Well that's an interesting comment, despite that deeper analysis of this concern necessary to get to the bottom of this would require immersing myself in literature detailing the life cycles of various parasites and pathogens, which doesn't exactly sound like a gripping pursuit... I suppose we'd generally suspect that any pathogens would spend their life cycle on the fish, but I appreciate this isn't true, and that many do spend a cycle free of their hosts.

The wiping down the sides of discus tank I always found to be a bit strange though, for its not as if anyone wipes down every particle of your filtration medium as well, and wouldn't that have the same build-up as a tank's glass?

Immersing ourselves in reading and literature about keeping discus is a priority we must do to be successful in keeping them. we do not wipe down every particle of the filter but many do regularly clean the sponges,tubes etc.
I am giving you my personal experiences with what you asked advise about but you seem to pick it apart.If you only want to hear the positives about it.... good luck with it.

[Mxx]

Immersing ourselves in reading and literature about keeping discus is a priority we must do to be successful in keeping them. we do not wipe down every particle of the filter but many do regularly clean the sponges,tubes etc.
I am giving you my personal experiences with what you asked advise about but you seem to pick it apart.If you only want to hear the positives about it.... good luck with it.

Thanks, I will delve into the subject of pathogens further, and as is necessary, although doing so isn't something I'm all that excited about of course! I hope I haven't come across as sounding negative in my responses though. Not that I'm trying to negate your views at all, as you guys are the one speaking from experience here with keeping discus, not I. But it is true that I appreciate the opportunity to carry out a discussion where we do critically examine our practices to try to uncover the underlying scientific basis. So in that spirit of scientific inquiry I did want to further ask about the aspects which I didn't understand or didn't seem to make sense on their surface, until I do discover the truth of the matter. And I do appreciate the assistance of members in doing so. This is particularly important to me personally to understand these things wherever possible before I launch myself into trying some untested combinations of practices with my own set-up, in order to give myself the best chance for success.

[jimg]

you'll be surprised at what you will be learning about keeping discus! water chemistry,pathogens,medicines,plumbing etc,etc. If I had a dime for every minute I have spent in books, internet, conversations and my face in the microscope i would be very wealthy! Then when you get to doing something a certain way for years you find it may be wrong... it starts over!!!
Many things we try to explain the shortest way to help but in reality it does get very complex at times. I do understand your just wanting a nice planted tank with beautiful discus in it, it can happen but lots of literature helps!

[Eddie]

Raising sub-adult discus in a planted tank. I guess that would be more like keeping, not raising. Go for some smaller ones, around 3 inches. That way you actually have something to raise.


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[vera]

Thanks, and I'm certainly trying to be as thorough as I can in doing all my homework before jumping into this. The small discus you mention in your 55, how many did you have, at what size, and with any cover in the tank? I'd heard that it helps to start with a larger group of juveniles, which is why I was thinking of getting around 20 at the start. And I'd heard that keeping some dither fish such as guppies helps them as well, by making them less skittish and encouraging them to eat with greater enthusiasm. When you say that they'd be stressed out at a small size are you talking there about discus that are 3", while they might be fine at 4" in your opinion?

i see no reason for u not to start with 20 4" in a planted tank there are many members who grew them successfully in planted and u dont need any dither fish for semi adults in a group of 20
my only concern would be that the number and size would kill yr filter in the beginning

[chriscro]

im doing the exact same thing with sub-adults in a planted tank..
so far i see some growth after about 1 month but i don't see why not as long as water quality is good with a good diet

[Mxx]

you'll be surprised at what you will be learning about keeping discus! water chemistry,pathogens,medicines,plumbing etc,etc. If I had a dime for every minute I have spent in books, internet, conversations and my face in the microscope i would be very wealthy! Then when you get to doing something a certain way for years you find it may be wrong... it starts over!!!
Many things we try to explain the shortest way to help but in reality it does get very complex at times. I do understand your just wanting a nice planted tank with beautiful discus in it, it can happen but lots of literature helps!

I do enjoy the intellectual challenge of the hobby as well. And it's not that I want simply a nice discus tank with nice discus, I want the perfect discus tank with plants! ;) I appreciate there are some compromises there perhaps, but I do at least want to iron out any issues beforehand as much as I can so that I'm not looking back and wishing in hindsight that I'd planned things differently.

[Eddie]

A perfect discus tank with plants...you are better off starting with potential show quality adults. Because in all reality, the perfect discus tank is another mans not so perfect discus tank. ;)


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[treker5]

+1

[walt3]

beauty is in the eye of the beholder. that goes with perceived perfection too i would guess. :) walt.