Captive Breed Heckels???

[3meis]

I'm rather new to the forum...Are there captive breed heckels available? If yes, any suggestions for breeders?

[Discus Origins]

As far as I know no one recent has done so, at least without proof. Heiko verifies Schmidt-focke did it 30 yrs ago but no one since. Anyone who does now can claim to be a rock star!

[roundfishross]

Andrzej Nowicki. this guy in poland is tha man turning them ou tbut I think he's the only guy on the planet

[roundfishross]

http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100000062661860

[Discus Origins]

Wow just saw his pix....looks like 2 true Heckels with fry, now he's a rock star!

[dbfzurowski]

He is definitely on my list of people to visit next summer.
Oh I intend on bringing some back , just need to work on my german:)

[Ryan]

Wow! Why isn't this guy rich? lol. I'd love some F1s because the chance of spawning them is much higher than the wild parents.

[dbfzurowski]

oh he will be. He is trying to grow out F1 and breed those

[Melissa]

Holy shmokes!! Ohhh! I can't wait for the day you can get a domestic Heckel! :-)

[Iralde]

It's posible to now how they do to breed them? thanks

[Sameen]

I have one Heckel which is captive bred. The breeder told me he bred it home. And i believe him bcoz the heckel is doing great with other captive breds and eats like pig and is pretty happy in tap water.
The breeder also had wild heckels but their price was higher. He had 100 captive bred heckels and all of them were in same size. the wilds were bigger tho. He said he kept the wilds for more than 1 year before he could get them to eat and finally breed. The captive breds are 6 inch now and the wilds are 8 inch and is not growing anymore.

[Second Hand Pat]

Sameen, your heckel a full heckel or cross?

[Discus Origins]

Sameen,

Just because a heckel does great with other captive breds and is happy in tap water doesn't necessarily mean its a F1. Any wilds can be acclimated to tap water and eat voraciously once settled in. It also surprises me that a F1 heckel would be cheaper than wild, to me it would be more valuable as it should more likely to breed under domestic conditions. As with any claims of Heckel breeding, documentation and pictures of actual parents with egg/fry/young would be necessary to accept as fact.

Mark

[Gajowa]

He is definitely on my list of people to visit next summer.
Oh I intend on bringing some back , just need to work on my german:)

Why do you need to work on your greman language?
Andrzej is polish and dosn't speak german.

[Sameen]

PLease dont get me wrong, i am pretty sure my Heckel is domestic. I would be proud if it was wild. It cost me 95 canadian dollars. And all the other heckels in that tank were same size and color. And i am 100% sure its domestic. Here in the forum a lot of people breed heckels at home too

[TURQ64]

Please hook me up with whoever is breeding captive Heckel's.....I've my doubts.

[DiscusOnly]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DKdFXF3pVc&

[TURQ64]

PLease dont get me wrong, i am pretty sure my Heckel is domestic. I would be proud if it was wild. It cost me 95 canadian dollars. And all the other heckels in that tank were same size and color. And i am 100% sure its domestic. Here in the forum a lot of people breed heckels at home too

I saw the video the first day it was posted. That's not what I'm referring to...the above post is. I don't know anyone on this forum or in the U.S.

[CliffsDiscus]

Captive bred Heckels are selling currently at Sunrise Tropical or MrDiscus, not sure if they are crosses or pure Heckels.

Cliff

[TURQ64]

well, I'll be damn'd..there's plenty of people crossing them, or so it seems, but I'll be interested in seeing any true Heckel's....I've got crosses, and I've got Heckel's, but...I'll bet a five spot Tony's are a cross; don't know 'mrDiscus'...currently waiting on a friend's PEXHeckel's to get big enough to travel...

[Larry Bugg]

PLease dont get me wrong, i am pretty sure my Heckel is domestic. I would be proud if it was wild. It cost me 95 canadian dollars. And all the other heckels in that tank were same size and color. And i am 100% sure its domestic. Here in the forum a lot of people breed heckels at home too

I don't mean to dispute but saying a lot of people breed heckels at home is incorrect unless you are talking about a male heckle to either a wild blue or green or a male heckel to a domestic discus. It is very well known that breeding heckel x heckel has been next to impossible. Besides Schmidt-focke and the new guy in Poland the only other confirmed case that I am aware of is Dale Jordan. His was documented back in the 80's or 90's I believe. I have a male heckel that I have breed with a female wild blue and a lot of people have done that. The issue has always been getting a wild female heckel to breed.

[ockyra215]

Vlam breeds wild Heckles he has tanks full of them LOL J/K Van

[CliffsDiscus]

. Besides Schmidt-focke and the new guy in Poland the only other confirmed case that I am aware of is Dale Jordan. documentedback in the 80's or 90's I believe. I have a male heckel that I have breed with a female wild blue and a lot of people have done that. The issue has always been getting a wild female heckel to breed.

I think Eddy Schmidt's Heckel's were also crosses which were sold by Aquarium Rio under the name Schmidth Focke's number 4 crosses this was back in the 80's. Dollman has spawn the wild Heckel(probably artifically) in the U.S. another Herman Chan back in the 60's spawn the Wild Heckel too, the rest of his Heckels
were crosses with the green and royal blue (know at that time RedBlue). Later Bing Seto's named his Discus Bing's Colbalt, this was the same
Discus that Herman Chan(Fairly Lake Discus) had in the early 70 before being wiped out with the Discus Plague the 80's.

Cliff

[moon_knight1971]

Tony from Sunrise Tropicals/Mrdiscus has some captive bred babies if anyone is interested.

[TURQ64]

Well Moon, Tony wouldn't have to sell on a street corner if those were true Heckel's....I'll get back to the Bay Area one of these days (I was there this week last year, but it was for a funeral)....and I'll get face to face with Tony again..soggy memory on his part, memory like a steel jawed trap on my part...I still remember vividly when he was yet to own a Discus fish....

[jimmyjoe]

I think what I'm going to do is this and I've been pondering this for awhile. Once I start seeing pairing behavior between my Red Tefe's I got from Han's or even my Tefe Greens I got from John, I'm going to try it. I'll buy the best Heckel Male I can find and see if I can't get some of my own, now Al there's a discus challenge to maybe consider down the road. Get some people from here to commit on trying to breed some domestic Heckel's for a Simply Auction? Jim in Ohio

[aequifasciatus]

The late Don Handley from New Zealand successfully bred wild caught Heckels and Cardinal Tetras back in the 80's. Jack Wattley visited him and bought his Heckels back to Florida but was unable to breed them. Jack wrote about him in one of his books.
I was lucky enough to buy all his stock of Jack's Turquoise before he retired and moved to Australia in the 90's.

Aequifasciatus

[moon_knight1971]

Well Moon, Tony wouldn't have to sell on a street corner if those were true Heckel's....I'll get back to the Bay Area one of these days (I was there this week last year, but it was for a funeral)....and I'll get face to face with Tony again..soggy memory on his part, memory like a steel jawed trap on my part...I still remember vividly when he was yet to own a Discus fish....

Think Tony gets a very limited supply? I bought 1 Snow Leopard from him on Sunday and by Monday his website said he was sold out. I called him up and he said he had 2 left but the buyer never came so I bought another 1. I don't think he's actual got more than a dozen of any fish at any time nowadays as he tries to get new stock every 4 - 6 weeks.

[TURQ64]

I don't know what he does, not being in the Bay Area since my retirement, but true captive bred Heckel Discus is kind of like the 'Holy Grail', so that Tony is the one would makes me skeptical.. As for crosses, they happen, as stated, but by and large it's always a male Heckel spawning with something....How'd the auction go last week,BTW?

[Discus Origins]

Here's the deal, if anyone has documented proof of true Heckel x Heckel breeding from eggs to raising young in the past 15 years please post the source link. Otherwise it's all hearsay and rumor, because the accomplishment is a HUGE deal and no one in their right mind would keep it a 'secret'. Why is Andrej of Poland world famous right now? He's the only one with documented proof of F1 Heckel young!!

I love hearing things like 'this place has them, he was selling them, etc' because when you call that source, somehow either the fish mysteriously vanished or they sold out yet they can't tell you who they sold their F1 Heckels to!

I've been trying to get Heckels to do something since 1991, I haven't even come close
to getting a 'pair' to even act like one. Yet I have bred all strains of discus most recent being Cuipeaus. I know how difficult and frustrating heckels can be and I've tried all
the tricks I know. I've spoken to Dale many times, and I can say that just getting a
female Heckel to lay eggs is a miracle.

I wish someone would break this spell in the US so maybe others can try their hands at F1s and eventually produce tank bred Heckels on a routine basis.

Mark

[roundfishross]

Here's the deal, if anyone has documented proof of true Heckel x Heckel breeding from eggs to raising young in the past 15 years please post the source link. Otherwise it's all hearsay and rumor, because the accomplishment is a HUGE deal and no one in their right mind would keep it a 'secret'. Why is Andrej of Poland world famous right now? He's the only one with documented proof of F1 Heckel young!!

I love hearing things like 'this place has them, he was selling them, etc' because when you call that source, somehow either the fish mysteriously vanished or they sold out yet they can't tell you who they sold their F1 Heckels to!

I've been trying to get Heckels to do something since 1991, I haven't even come close
to getting a 'pair' to even act like one. Yet I have bred all strains of discus most recent being Cuipeaus. I know how difficult and frustrating heckels can be and I've tried all
the tricks I know. I've spoken to Dale many times, and I can say that just getting a
female Heckel to lay eggs is a miracle.

I wish someone would break this spell in the US so maybe others can try their hands at F1s and eventually produce tank bred Heckels on a routine basis.

Mark

I have already posred the link earlier in this thread it is a true doccumented cased the only current one I know of. Tony has been selling crosses for about a year and a half these are not true h x h

[Discus Origins]

I have already posred the link earlier in this thread it is a true doccumented cased the only current one I know of. Tony has been selling crosses for about a year and a half these are not true h x h

I know Ross, that link is of Andrej in Poland the same person I mentioned. Heckel crosses way more common, and F2s lose the middle stripe. To me they are nothing to get too excited about.

[moon_knight1971]

I don't know what he does, not being in the Bay Area since my retirement, but true captive bred Heckel Discus is kind of like the 'Holy Grail', so that Tony is the one would makes me skeptical.. As for crosses, they happen, as stated, but by and large it's always a male Heckel spawning with something....How'd the auction go last week,BTW?

Had a hard time finding the building (took 40 mins!) so I missed the 1st half hour but I was overall slightly disappointed in what was being auctioned. Most of it was Red Crystal Shrimp, Bettas, several baby Angelfish and plants. There were several equiptment auctions so I scored a 36 light fixture for $15 and some lights for $2. I'll give it a couple more tries since it is for a good cause. I asked one of the organizers if they ever have discus and was told it's been a while...

[ericatdallas]

As far as I know no one recent has done so, at least without proof. Heiko verifies Schmidt-focke did it 30 yrs ago but no one since. Anyone who does now can claim to be a rock star!

I can't access it from work, but Sunrise Tropical is selling F1 or F2 Heckels on Aquabid... I e-mailed him asking which generation it was but he said he didn't know.

Here is his response, "These are tank raised as the auction states, bred by world champion breeder Tan Chee Lok. I did not ask the breeder if they are F1 or F2."


--------------------

Item number : 1302722480
Item Title : 6 baby Heckel discus - FREE SHIP
URL Here : http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi/?fwdiscus&1302722480

---------------------------------

What do you think of this sale? I was considering it, but decided against it only because the seller didn't know what I think should be a simple fact about his product.

[roundfishross]

I can't access it from work, but Sunrise Tropical is selling F1 or F2 Heckels on Aquabid... I e-mailed him asking which generation it was but he said he didn't know.

Here is his response, "These are tank raised as the auction states, bred by world champion breeder Tan Chee Lok. I did not ask the breeder if they are F1 or F2."


--------------------

Item number : 1302722480
Item Title : 6 baby Heckel discus - FREE SHIP
URL Here : http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi/?fwdiscus&1302722480

---------------------------------

What do you think of this sale? I was considering it, but decided against it only because the seller didn't know what I think should be a simple fact about his product.

the fish in this link do not appear to be hekels to me. I see no bold 5th bar and they appear to be spotting like a leopard.

[ericatdallas]

the fish in this link do not appear to be hekels to me. I see no bold 5th bar and they appear to be spotting like a leopard.

I guess even better that I didn't bite :) I didn't think they looked like it either because I stared at those pictures for a while and Google'd images. I'm not really experienced at identifying discus though so I figured my inability to distinguish them was due to my untrained eye.

[Larry Bugg]

Leo, you've never heard of the RARE red spotted Heckel...............


I would agree with Leo. Maybe they are a heckel cross but not heckel x heckel. I emailed the seller on aquabid. I believe that is false advertising.

[roundfishross]

Leo, you've never heard of the RARE red spotted Heckel...............


I would agree with Leo. Maybe they are a heckel cross but not heckel x heckel.

Larry I dont even think cross unless f2 and have lost center bar

[Larry Bugg]

Larry I dont even think cross unless f2 and have lost center bar

All heckel crosses will not necessarily have the center bar. Roger had a heckel x wild blue and the juvies had no center bar. I now have that pair. They had one very small spawn for me and I lost all the fry before they got very big but again no center bar was evident. I am hoping they will spawn again.

[Discus Origins]

I can't access it from work, but Sunrise Tropical is selling F1 or F2 Heckels on Aquabid... I e-mailed him asking which generation it was but he said he didn't know.

Here is his response, "These are tank raised as the auction states, bred by world champion breeder Tan Chee Lok. I did not ask the breeder if they are F1 or F2."

Like previously stated, most likely a Heckel cross. If it was true heckelxheckel do you think the world champion breeder wouldn't have had a press conference?? ;)

Mark

[Gajowa]

Here's the deal, if anyone has documented proof of true Heckel x Heckel breeding from eggs to raising young in the past 15 years please post the source link. Otherwise it's all hearsay and rumor, because the accomplishment is a HUGE deal and no one in their right mind would keep it a 'secret'. Why is Andrej of Poland world famous right now? He's the only one with documented proof of F1 Heckel young!!

I love hearing things like 'this place has them, he was selling them, etc' because when you call that source, somehow either the fish mysteriously vanished or they sold out yet they can't tell you who they sold their F1 Heckels to!

I've been trying to get Heckels to do something since 1991, I haven't even come close
to getting a 'pair' to even act like one. Yet I have bred all strains of discus most recent being Cuipeaus. I know how difficult and frustrating heckels can be and I've tried all
the tricks I know. I've spoken to Dale many times, and I can say that just getting a
female Heckel to lay eggs is a miracle.

I wish someone would break this spell in the US so maybe others can try their hands at F1s and eventually produce tank bred Heckels on a routine basis.

Mark

I have read long time ago in some discus book, that asians bred wild heckel x heckel in hundreds, but they couldn't find buyers for them, so they stoped.
Jeffrey Tan and Andrew Soh told me the same.

[damian_ireland]

I am currently of the opinion that ANdrej in Poland(http://www.superdiscus.pl/heckel.html) has breed them. Just wondering if anyone else has kept Heckels at this low pH ?

[Discus Origins]

You are correct to assume so, that has been confirmed by earlier posts in this thread. I keep my Heckels at 4.0-4.2, I havent found a way to get the ph any lower without adding chemicals. Anyone kept ph below 4 naturally?

[Moon]

Back in the 80's I had a pair of Heckels that spawned. I am not quite sure if they were a pair or two females. They eggs did not hatch and in a couple of days were eaten. The ph of the water was 4.0. I was experimenting with the water by adding acid. The spawing was a pure fluke. I neglected the tank for a couple of weeks and the water was quite dirty.
It was a one time thing. I gave the pair to a buudy of mine. Bob is a well known discus keeper locally and i thought he might be able to get them to spawn. They never did.

[Discus Origins]

Moon, that's awesome you got heckels to lay eggs...it's was a nice surprise! This guy in Poland is actually raising F 1 heckels and it's documented. I don't think anyone else currently can claim the same feat.

[John_Nicholson]

Dennis Hardenburger also bred them many, many years ago. I was at his place 10 years or so ago and saw the pictures. He used a 40 gallon breeder and had almost pure RO water in it. It was so soft that he would come home from work at lunch to do an extra water change. If he did not the Ph would crash. He only did it once. Said it was not worth the effort.

-john

[Apistomaster]

Andre's documented accounts of breeding Heckels is the most credible of any I have come across in many years. Having seen most of his youtube videos I am completely convinced of his successful accomplishments.
I have a feeling that F1 Heckels are probably going to be nearly as difficult to breed as wild fish but not quite as difficult. Still likely to prove that very few who manage to obtain any of Andre's F1's will be successful but only because I think F1 is too soon to gain any domesticated traits. They should be parasite free and I think that is one thing which will make it easier to get the F1 females into breeding condition.
I think we are still many years away from establishing some purebred, tank raised aquarium strains of Heckels but at least we have seen some progress thanks to Andre's success and adequate documentation.
It is not too difficult to maintain a pH of 4.0 in nearly pure RO water. It is hard to reach 4.0 without using Muriatic acid and I really do not think there is any need to try to keep the pH below 4.0.
By most standards if the pH is as low as 4.0 that would be difficult to lower any further without using more Muriatic acid. Once the pH is at 4.0 it won't crash to a lower pH by any natural means I am aware of.

I have found the statements that Heckels are not bred commercially because there is no market for them an incredulous assertion.
The comments in posts about Heckels I have seen on the Singapore based aquarium forum, www.aquaticquotient.com indicates a considerable interest in keeping and breeding Heckel Discus.
They are always very excited about whenever some wild caught Heckels become available in the area and they seem to want to breed or buy tank raised Heckels as badly as North American wild type Discus lovers.
I started a topic asking about the availability of Tan's TR Altum Angels and found that they were not being made available but there are many hobbyists already thrilled to be able to get any wild caught Altum Angelfish which manage to make it to Singapore. It parallels in many ways the Heckel's popularity in SE Asia.
So to say there is no market for TR Heckels sounds like a hollow claim to me. It sounds more like a flimsy excuse to cover the lack of success the SE Asian breeders have had with Heckel breeding that those in the rest of the world experience.

Vlam breeding Heckels doesn't ring true to me. Vlam has been one of my Pleco customers and he knows how interested I am in breeding all species of wild Discus. We have traded e-mails having to do with breeding plecos but he has never once mentioned that he has bred or is breeding Heckel Discus to me in any of our conversations.
In fact, that he is breeding any wild Discus has never come up in our e-mail conversations.

[Apistomaster]

From these very pages of the forum we have a perfect example of the enthusiasm that SE Asian hobbyists have for Heckel Discus and Altum Angels.
This is far from being an isolated case in support of the claims I have made in my above previous post.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?85519-My-Heckel-amp-Altum-Angels-newbie-from-.-.-.-Thailand

[prabuddhasarkar]

Hi Sameen, you said that, the breeder had to wait for 1 year for the wild to eat and breed??? Is it possible to a discus to stay without eating for 1 year?

[jawfish]

With all this I'm really thinking of starting my Heckel Project back.

I kept heckels for 6 months several years ago and sold them when I got out of the hobby. Now that I'm back I got the urge to do it again.

Whats really puzzling me and I've search a little the heckel project about this, is why do the females are reluctant to breed. I find it intriging that Males will breed, but not females.

Cheers,

Fred

[roundfishross]

it sorta mimics human life. they are very picky

[ericatdallas]

With all this I'm really thinking of starting my Heckel Project back.

I kept heckels for 6 months several years ago and sold them when I got out of the hobby. Now that I'm back I got the urge to do it again.

Whats really puzzling me and I've search a little the heckel project about this, is why do the females are reluctant to breed. I find it intriging that Males will breed, but not females.

Cheers,

Fred

Just speculating, but maybe heckels only breed where they're hatched. This may not apply to the males as long as there are eggs to fertilize. The few breeding reports may be more the exception than the rule. So people are trying to recreate the wrong parameters. The fish may be looking at other ques other than pH, hardness, etc. There may be something that's harder to characterize such as certain scents trigger different memories for humans.

[ockyra215]

I would say its more likely the cause of people getting heckles and meeting thier proper water parameters and then trying to recreate the proper spawning conditions its very time consuming and mostget frustrated and loose interest, Andrzej Nowicki has succesfully spawned Wild Heckles in poland look him up on facebook he has it all documented.Most people give up.And Suichi Wantanabe has some serious Heckle Crosses available in Japan which are killer.Not to mention Lucky Tropical Lawrence Soon has also a nice variety of Heckle crosses.It would be a neat contest of sorts to try and sucessfully breed wild Heckles or Even a Killer cross between a wild heckle and a Classic Turq.
JMO I love Heckles as many of us do and right now I dont have the time but I would like to try if anyone is interested in it.Also I remember Al having a huge tank full of Heckles from Hans I wonder whats going on in that tank..........

[ericatdallas]

I don't think the crosses are the issue.

I also would suspect something other than -exacting- water parameters for pure heckels because nature is very dynamic and any organism that is too rigid is setting itself up for extinction. That's not to say it's not the case, but it really throws a wrench in the theory that adaptatation is a driving factor for evolution.

[damian_ireland]

I would have to agree with Eric on this. I remember reading an article on someone trying to breed Retroculus xinguensis and was having major problem. he then added small little pebbles to the tank and away they spawned..
My gut feeling on Heckle is that it is something to do with diet. I dont think it is water parameters as too many good people have failed.


I don't think the crosses are the issue.

I also would suspect something other than -exacting- water parameters for pure heckels because nature is very dynamic and any organism that is too rigid is setting itself up for extinction. That's not to say it's not the case, but it really throws a wrench in the theory that adaptatation is a driving factor for evolution.

[Moon]

A change of diet might be wort considering. I recall reading in Heiko's book that wild discus do eat fruits and seeds.

[zimmjeff]

try adding coffee brandy it seams to work around here. jeff.

[Moon]

Is it coffee with brandy or brandy flavoured coffee?

[zimmjeff]

brandy flavored coffee

[roundfishross]

allens coffee brandy. the official trailor park drink of Maine....lol

[jawfish]

I've looked at Andre's facebook, and website... In a way it confims it can be done. Its a good source of insparations and those videos are just great...

Now I agree there probably more to it than water paremeters i.e. PH, Hardness, Temperature etc... Maybe there's a trigger...Yes food could play a factor, may be not just the diet itself but also the quantity... could also ligthing conditions and cycles/length ?... what about temperature fluctuations or changes in water change valumes i.e. the large influx of new water after a period of stagnation ?

Correct me if I'm wrong but If I remember right Wild discus reproduce in the rainy season... Conditions and food diversity and quantity varies between season could the females require a dry season and then the start of the rain season conditions to lay eggs ?

Like I said I'm intrigue, plus I've got a nice 150 gallon tank that would be perfect for a Heckel project... I'm also under the impression that getting younger fish for the project would increase the chances for success... What the smallest size can someone get ? I've heard of size restrictions for export...

cheers

Fred

[zchauvin]

I've looked at Andre's facebook, and website... In a way it confims it can be done. Its a good source of insparations and those videos are just great...

Now I agree there probably more to it than water paremeters i.e. PH, Hardness, Temperature etc... Maybe there's a trigger...Yes food could play a factor, may be not just the diet itself but also the quantity... could also ligthing conditions and cycles/length ?... what about temperature fluctuations or changes in water change valumes i.e. the large influx of new water after a period of stagnation ?

Correct me if I'm wrong but If I remember right Wild discus reproduce in the rainy season... Conditions and food diversity and quantity varies between season could the females require a dry season and then the start of the rain season conditions to lay eggs ?

Like I said I'm intrigue, plus I've got a nice 150 gallon tank that would be perfect for a Heckel project... I'm also under the impression that getting younger fish for the project would increase the chances for success... What the smallest size can someone get ? I've heard of size restrictions for export...

cheers

Fred
Good question, I plan to get a 240 by next year and get a few heckels for it when the season comes back around.

[Apistomaster]

In 2006 I bought ten subadult Heckels which were 3-1/2 to 3-3/4 inches. They were the smallest Heckels I have ever had. I had three pairs form and they took things as far as guarding suitable spawning sites and doing pre-spawn cleaning but that is as far as I have ever been able to get. I have had other groups of larger Heckels reach the same stage but never got any further. Heckels like to eat Spirulina and Earth Worm Sticks. Other wild Discus will eat Earth Worm Sticks but show little interest in Spirulina Sticks.
I sold my last group about 4 years later since it did not look like they would ever breed.
They grew to 5-1/2 and 6 inches which is close to their normal adult sizes in the wild. Heckels are the smallest of the three Discus species.

[jawfish]

Thanks Apistomaster...

I figure this to be a long term project...

They may be the smallest of the 3 Discus species, and I find them to be the most delicate in looks yet in my eyes they are the most desirable of all the discus species... that center bar adds something, in my mind at least.

Some people are saying to stay away from beef heart with heckels. I was reading Andre's presentation, well at least from the google translater and it was mentioned that he did feed them beefheart. With beefheart adding vegetable and fruits is not an issue, then again which fruits to add ? If not using beefheart how and what to give becomes interesting also...

Cheers,

Fred

[damian_ireland]

I've looked at Andre's facebook, and website... In a way it confims it can be done. Its a good source of insparations and those videos are just great...

Now I agree there probably more to it than water paremeters i.e. PH, Hardness, Temperature etc... Maybe there's a trigger...Yes food could play a factor, may be not just the diet itself but also the quantity... could also ligthing conditions and cycles/length ?... what about temperature fluctuations or changes in water change valumes i.e. the large influx of new water after a period of stagnation ?

Correct me if I'm wrong but If I remember right Wild discus reproduce in the rainy season... Conditions and food diversity and quantity varies between season could the females require a dry season and then the start of the rain season conditions to lay eggs ?

Like I said I'm intrigue, plus I've got a nice 150 gallon tank that would be perfect for a Heckel project... I'm also under the impression that getting younger fish for the project would increase the chances for success... What the smallest size can someone get ? I've heard of size restrictions for export...

cheers

Fred

Interesting opinions Fred. I am going to move my Geos on soon as the are spawning like crazy. I wonder will the fact I have wild blues in the tank also mean that if the is any breeding it will be crossed.

[kevin joseph]

can you or could it be done, cross heckel male with a heckel cross female and keep line breeding till the offspring are back to looking more like a wild heckel? artificial heckel type thing.

[jawfish]

can you or could it be done, cross heckel male with a heckel cross female and keep line breeding till the offspring are back to looking more like a wild heckel? artificial heckel type thing.

Well that's kind like cheating ;)

In Soh's second book discus genetics seems quite intertwine. I doubts you could ever really go back to a true breeding artificial heckel. I think we need to crack the code to get them to breed. The goal is to get some homebreed heckels of F2 or F3 generation were hopefully they would be a little easier to breed.

If they are not laying eggs the simple reason is that one or several of the Heckel needs are not being met. Propagation of the species is a basic instinct. For it not to happen is that something is fundamentally not right. Discus keepers have been able to have heckels survive: That is to eat and live for several years. The issue is getting them to thrive i.e. Getting them to breed. There something missing for the fish to move on from surviving to propagating. Biology teachs us that in order to do so, the animal conditions must support population growth. I just love theory... It's doesn't mean much in the real world sometimes... So the Question is what's missing ?

Several have mentionned that the fish were getting into the motion, so this leads me to believe that these Discus keepers had their Heckels go from surviving to thriving. Why didn't they lay eggs ? That's the Million $ question. 6 or 8 heckels may simply not be a proper number to start with, maybe we need 15-20 fish, just to increase the odds of having 1 female not being so difficult :o

Just as I'm typing this I'm just glad to see this pop up NEW Acrylic tank build http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?88635-NEW-Acrylic-tank-build

Hmmm Something like a 96 inch long tank by 30 inch wide by 24 inch high would be perfect...

I'm still going to have a go with my 150 gallon first. in the mean time I need to figure severals things. Filtration, Water processing and getting comfortable with a tank at the proper water perameters with some fish in it...

Cheers,

Fred

[TURQ64]

can you or could it be done, cross heckel male with a heckel cross female and keep line breeding till the offspring are back to looking more like a wild heckel? artificial heckel type thing.
This angle of the dangle has been asnd is currently being done..The trouble seems to be keeping Heckel traits in the offspring........

[Apistomaster]

I believe Heckels are a very sociable species. I have always wondered if they were kept in larger groups in an impractically large tank or pool if that would make the difference.
Heckels have always been the Discus I wanted to breed most but after trying many times over more than 4 decades I concluded I had little more than a snow ball's chance in Hades of pulling it off and have given up the idea.
It is easy to get them to the point of pairing and preliminary pre-spawn behaviors but really hard to push them past that stage.
I do recommend that you add Spirulina Sticks to their diet as they do increase the vegetable matter in their diet and because of the way the sticks soften the Discus can and do sift the bottom to find all the particles. H. Bleher's studies of stomach contents of wild fish shows that about 50% of their diet consists of detritus from the bottom and the stick foods allow them to feed in a way that is very natural for them. www.kensfish.com sells both Spirulina and Earth worm sticks. I stopped using beef heart on Discus several years ago because I found that my wild Blues and the Heckels I had did fine on these Stick foods. Heckels are the only wilds that like Spirulina sticks. I use frozen blood worms and Tetra Color Bits but my Blues' staple food is earth worm sticks.

[jawfish]

I believe Heckels are a very sociable species. I have always wondered if they were kept in larger groups in an impractically large tank or pool if that would make the difference.
Heckels have always been the Discus I wanted to breed most but after trying many times over more than 4 decades I concluded I had little more than a snow ball's chance in Hades of pulling it off and have given up the idea.
It is easy to get them to the point of pairing and preliminary pre-spawn behaviors but really hard to push them past that stage.
I do recommend that you add Spirulina Sticks to their diet as they do increase the vegetable matter in their diet and because of the way the sticks soften the Discus can and do sift the bottom to find all the particles. H. Bleher's studies of stomach contents of wild fish shows that about 50% of their diet consists of detritus from the bottom and the stick foods allow them to feed in a way that is very natural for them. www.kensfish.com sells both Spirulina and Earth worm sticks. I stopped using beef heart on Discus several years ago because I found that my wild Blues and the Heckels I had did fine on these Stick foods. Heckels are the only wilds that like Spirulina sticks. I use frozen blood worms and Tetra Color Bits but my Blues' staple food is earth worm sticks.

I dunno if it would make the difference, but it would increase the odds. Plus I think it would be a really cool display tank, and since Heckels have different requirements it make sense to give them their special corner.

Thanks for the tip on the kenfish sticks... I was wondering if anybody had oppened the stomach content ? Over the years I've accumulated many Discus books, but I have to admitt that the Heckel content is alway dim... Is the Bleher Discus Volume 1 any different ?

I've got good white worm cultures going on and started 2 new red wrigglers cultures... Next step is building a new peat bomb. I had one years ago, but got rid of it when I got out of the hobby 10 years ago...Oh well..

Cheers,

Fred

[morgs8u]

Has anyone tried having a higher tank say 1m +
cause in the wild they breed during floods mabye it might have to do with pressure
???????????????

[morgs8u]

mabye having it half capacity then a rapid water increase

[damian_ireland]

Well, I am getting another 4 heckels and I am going to clear out my Geos and the other odd bits and bobs. That will leave me with 8 Heckels and 3 Blues.... will keep ye updated

[Apistomaster]

A very large and deep tank is probably better than a shallow 24 inch deep tank although Andre's documented success shows that it is possible to breed Heckels in captivity.
They need such soft and acid water that you can not get the pH down to 4.0 or lower relying on peat alone. It is better to use small amounts of Muriatic acid to get a stable pH between 3.5 and 4.0. I prefer to use Cattapa(Indian Almond leaves to get the organic tint over peat.
Cattapa leaves are sold on eBay and Aquabid. As they decay they provide some detritus that Heckels love to pick through. It may add a bit of mess but that is a more natural habitat than a pristinely maintained tank provides.
I use Cattapa leaves extensively in all my black water type tanks and in my fancy pleco breeding tanks.
I only have 10 F1 Nhamunda Blue Discus now and they are just reaching maturity and beginning their pair formation. They love earth worm sticks and are not a black water Discus species so I do not use Cattapa leaves in their tank.

[Moon]

Larry
Have you checked the ingredient list of the earthworm sticks? Earth worm is number 10. There are other items like corn starch, gluten, fish meal etc way before earth worm is listed. I am wondering what percentage of the composition is earthworms.

[jawfish]

I agree that you can't do it with peat alone... My thought are the tannin and hummic acids... I already have 3 bags of Cattapa leaves from my Betta breeding, which I gave up to concentrate on the Discus I guess I will have some use for them after all. What about the Bannana leaves ? I'll admitt that it's my nature to experiment frist then move on to the living organisms.

Dry foods make this more convenient, but I've always been succesfull with my worm cultures so I'm planning to rely on them with the combination of dry foods. The Earth worm sticks, Spirulina Sticks and the Vegetable Sticks are just too convenient to ignore.

[JamesP]

As Gary mentioned further back in this thread I have spawned a Penang Eruption with a Heckel male. The fry are about 3" right now and have really started to show some color. I have included a few photos taken about a month ago when they were 2 1/2". I will take new photos next week. If you notice there are two distinctive types of striping. The 14 bar ones are looking much more like the Penang. The 9 bar have a darker center bar and appear to be coloring out more like the Heckel. I am also raising a batch of Tefe Green F1's which are actually a week older. My observation is the Heckel X's grow much faster and are rounder from the very beginning compare with the Tefes.
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Picture014-1.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Picture013-1.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Picture017.jpg
Female Penang Eruption
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Picture043.jpg
Blue Faced Heckel male
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Picture040.jpg
I plan to raise the Heckel barred fry and try to cross them with a wild Heckel as well as just breeding some of the F1's together. I also noticed in this post that Heckels are the smallest of the wild varieties. I find it just the opposite. My wild Heckels are at least a third larger than my largest Tefe's. The Heckels are more reserved and feed a little slower but do just fine in any type of water. The Heckel X were spawned in a Ph of 5.8 and it was pure RO water. I also use logs to stain the water. In this particular case the water was so dark I needed a flash light to verify the eggs and fry were in the tank. The next photo is after a 50% water change to lighten the water so I could see the fry and get a photo.
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Picture022.jpg
More fry photos to come.

Jim

[damian_ireland]

Interesting input Jim, I wonder how relevant water colour is, looking at Andrzej Nowickis pictures his water does not look dark. Anyone else have heckels breeding with Blues or Greens ?

[ericatdallas]

Has anyone tried having a higher tank say 1m +
cause in the wild they breed during floods mabye it might have to do with pressure
???????????????

Wouldn't it be a kick in the 'balls' if high TDS is what triggered spawning? :P I mean, after a rain, if you look in a lake or river, the water is murky due to sediment being mixed in. Perhaps the flooding brought in additional particles (i.e. calcium) into the water that tells the heckels to lay eggs. I doubt it since if it was purely high TDS, then many people would have breeding pairs just out of dumb luck. Still, it's amusing to think and it would be funny to see that the 'trigger' is totally the opposite of what people have thought all these years.

[Apistomaster]

Larry
Have you checked the ingredient list of the earthworm sticks? Earth worm is number 10. There are other items like corn starch, gluten, fish meal etc way before earth worm is listed. I am wondering what percentage of the composition is earthworms.

I do not know exactly how much of earth worm sticks are actually earth worms but I know the % by weight is low. Despite that the growth of Discus I have raised on a mainly earth worm stick diet is still excellent.
If you look over the stomach contents analysis of wild Discus that Heiko Bleher published you find that almost half of their diet in the wild is a low nutrition detritus. I think that earth worm sticks help fill in that gap well. Same goes for the Spirulina sticks for Heckels. They eat a lot of these foods and will feed off the bottom hours after feeding them sticks sifting the sand(where applicable) which allows them to graze fairly constantly as they would in the wild.
Richer foods may grow out fish faster but is that as desirable as growing up a little slower as long as they still reach their maximum size?

Earth worm sticks are an essential food in my fancy pleco breeding program. In fact, I discovered how much wild Discus liked them when I was using them to feed the Hypancistrus spp and Peckoltia compta(Leopard Frog Plecos L134) that I was keeping with my last group of Heckels. I have moved beyond breeding wild P. compta, Hypancistrus sp L260(Queen Arabesque) and Sturisoma aureum("Royal Farlowella") and am now producing my own F2 generations.
I have raised my current group of F1 Nhamunda Blue Discus on mainly earth worm sticks and frozen blood worms. I expect these Blues to begin spawning at most anytime.

Heckels are the smallest of the Discus species on average. There will always be some specimens that grow larger than the average size in the wild just as some do not grow as large as average size. Bleher and others have documented the sizes of each of the wild species and S. haraldi is the largest species on average.

[jawfish]

Interesting James...& Congrats !!!

Are you going to try to cross back one of the f1 with its father ?

BTW love your Tefe offsprings too....

Cheers,

Fred

[JamesP]

Interesting James...& Congrats !!!

Are you going to try to cross back one of the f1 with its father ?

BTW love your Tefe offsprings too....

Cheers,

Fred

Thanks. I do plan on using the male to cross back as well as I have another very large Blue Face Heckel sex undetermined right now. I think I will use my Penang female to see if I can verify it's sex. I actually think it is a female from other activities I have seen with my grow out F1 Tefe.

Jim

[TURQ64]

It'll be interesting to see how the crosses color up...I have juvies from the female PE's siblings, and there are a lot of color variations. Hardly any two the same....It does make me wonder about the PE's pedigree. It seems to me that for my money, the line is less than stellar, but I digress, as we have discussed this previously....time will tell...Gary

[Rex82]

It'll be interesting to see how the crosses color up...I have juvies from the female PE's siblings, and there are a lot of color variations. Hardly any two the same....It does make me wonder about the PE's pedigree. It seems to me that for my money, the line is less than stellar, but I digress, as we have discussed this previously....time will tell...Gary

PE's are a form of snakeskin. should be some 14 bar snakeskins, some 9 bar snakeskins, some turk type, some non barred type. Oh the joys of snakeskins

[TURQ64]

Yep, them 'snakes throw a lot of variation, thanks to the unfixed genes...Not to run away from the Heckel thread, but of the batch I purchased, only one colored up anywhere close to a PE, and a poor one at that. The rest colored up like a form of spotted leopards;two different types of spotting..although I purchased them, I culled heavily, as they weren't turning out to be something I wanted to further,so now there are only four...Two pairs, both spawning....back to Heckel's..
The Mari Mari's sure seem to want to spawn; a lot of posturing going on............

[JamesP]

Gary,

Congrats post some photos of the pairs.

Thanks,

Jim

[jawfish]

Sure would like to see some pics of those Heckels posturing ;-)

Cheers,

Fred

[TURQ64]

O.K. mates, bear with me here....We have tons of ambient room light that causes glare across the larger tanks in the music room...Back in 'fish alley', where the fry and breeder tanks are, there's only ceiling light, as with the music room, but no room for camera angle due to the aisle...So, here's some lousy photo's as asked...
Jim, these are the sub adult PE fry which are from the siblings of your PE...we've talked these guys over a time or two...They have no real relevance on the Heckel Project, but they are related to your PE, so that they are different looking than the parents is the only thing relative. One pair is large striations and spots, and the other pair are fine lined and spotted, but both different from the first...Neither group IMO represent PE well, so the few fry that have been attaching in these spawns aren't worth me keeping at this point....I don't have a clue how the Heckel genes will add to this stew....
This id the wider spotted pair, more like leopards. Male in front, female rear, watching about a dozen wrigglers
http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/Royaliste/Fish/IMG_06292.jpg
This is the female of those two
http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/Royaliste/Fish/IMG_06452.jpg
This is the male of pair number two, with the fine spotting...all of the past fish are siblings
http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/Royaliste/Fish/IMG_06502.jpg
And Jawfish, this is two of the Heckel's posturing, but as you see, reflections of everything around, including me! I'll keep trying.....
http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/Royaliste/Fish/IMG_06132.jpg
So, this is just the goods of my observation regarding PE's, of which I'm no expert...Add in the Heckel genes from Jim's male, and who knows what's in the works,eh?...Gary

[jawfish]

Thanks Gary !!!

Keep us posted on what happens !!!

Cheers,

Fred

[Thras]

Ok so I understand that heckels haven't been breed with each other because of something missing I was siting here thinking to my self what if it wasn't a water quality issue but a pressure problem if and I'm no scientist but if I'm not mistaken the higher the altitude the more pressure there is on the water witch would increase pressure so maybe look into a water pressure issue sorry If this sounds lame but it was just a thought

[TURQ64]

Elevation of Alenquer,Para, Brazil=0 ft......elevation of my house=900 ft......not much pressure difference.....Gary

[Thras]

Ok well was just a thought I had didn't know if it would make a difference but worth a thought I know I'm no discus expert beings I'm just getting into the hobby

[Len]

Gary,

Since your in the picture taking mood, any chance of seeing some shots of you'd Marine Marine Hackers? I've wanted some for a long while now, but just can't get them easily. I've been told that they don't keep their colour once you get them in the tank for shots time, but I'm not sure how accurate that is.

Cheers,
Len

[TURQ64]

Well, it's really tough to get a photo in a room with this much ambient lighting. On the other hand, every specie of fish I've overflowed into the music room where the Heckel's reside, they've done superb, some of which I attribute to the passing of the sun daily..here's a few updated photo's. First, The Mari Mari Heckel's, specifically two that seem fairly paired up
http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/Royaliste/Fish/IMG_0662.jpg

And here's the newly received Jatapu Blue Faced Heckel's from Mark...

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/Royaliste/Fish/IMG_0666.jpg

These guys all have a story to tell; the Mari Mari's about the Blizzard, and the Jatapu's about being crushed almost to death by Dreadex....this is their fist day out of QT...

[Discus Origins]

Gary those Jatapus look great after all that they've been thru...good job on getting them settled in! Give them a little time and they will darken to a deep blue for you.

[Len]

Thanks for the pics. They are beautiful. I still trying to scheme up a way to sget some :-)

[jawfish]

Thanks for the pics Gary, please keep us posted on your progress.

Decided to have a go at it in the fall. Will try to get between 12-15 small 3.5inch heckels for the 150.

At least I have time te set up properlly all my worm cultures...Set up my 40gallon sump filter... and get some experience keeping a tank at a PH of 4.0-4.5...

Cheers,

Fred

[NanDiscus]

I just finished a 15-minute-long conversation over the phone with my old-time friend and avid Heckel fan, Attila Lukács from Budapest and he has confirmed the second-hand information I received from someone else two hours ago about a bunch of eggs laid by a pair of Rio Negro Heckels.
There are 8 fish in a 125 gallon tank, with two pairs on either sides of the tank and the rest of the fish in the middle. The pair that spawned this evening are on the left side, under the jungle of Philodendron and Chlorophytum roots hanging into the tank. The spawning surface is a piece of dirftwood.
Pictures are being taken right now and more info is about to come regarding the water parameters and all the rest of it. What I do know is that the water is 99% pure RO.

I'll keep you posted.

Nandi

[JamesP]

Can't wait to see the photos.

[kent1963]

Can't wait to see the photos. +1!

[Second Hand Pat]

Can't wait to see the photos.

+2

[jimg]

you mean someone beat me too it?!!
+3 photos

[Second Hand Pat]

you mean someone beat me too it?!!
+3 photos

Jim, yours are a little young :)

[jimg]

Jim, yours are a little young :)
ahhhhh.... yeah I know!!

[NanDiscus]

Attila, the owner had them for over two years now, I think. The same pair had already spawned once, obviously the day before he went to the USA for two months. After he came back he gave them a fitness training with good food and immaculate water and the efforts seem to be paying off. Now we're waiting with all fingers crossed and I already shared my technique for building a good tank divider with him.

Jim, you may just have to wait long enough... ;)

Nandi

[jimg]

Jim, you may just have to wait long enough... It is worth the wait i guess. I like watching them grow. mine are growing quick and hopefully, and I do mean hopefully they will pair!

[Ryan]

This is exciting!

[illumnae]

I'm interested to know the water parameters. 99% RO, what's the remaining 1%?

[NanDiscus]

1%= tiny bit of good ole' Budapest tap water.

712857128671287

More info coming later, the world is upside down there. The divider is up and looking good, but the guys are a little shy.

Nandi

[jimg]

Nice! thanks for the pics

[Second Hand Pat]

Looks like a healthy batch of eggs. :)

[Jennie]

Andrzej Nowicki has already accomplished this successfully...check out his photo albums https://www.facebook.com/renataandrzej

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=188926577786096&set=a.188925817786172.48528.100000062661860&type=3&theater

[illumnae]

Hmm so for every 99 litres of water he puts in 1 litre of tap water. Very interesting.

[NanDiscus]

Hmm so for every 99 litres of water he puts in 1 litre of tap water. Very interesting.

No. This is just a very rough estimate, intended simply to give an idea about the approximate ratio of RO+tap.

Jennie,
We know about Andrzej's success, but it seems so far it's only my friend who could do it after him. We're far from being successful yet. The pics speak for themselves though. ;)

Nandi

[NanDiscus]

Happy New Year Everyone!

Here are the 'happy water parameters' as of yesterday evening:
pH: 4.7, EC: 60mS, NO3: somewhere between 0 and 10.
The pure RO-water used for the w/c's has an EC of about 10mS, the extra 50 comes from the life in the tank (food, etc.). The tap water I mentioned earlier is no longer present (or detectable) in the tank, it was only added before the long vacation to provide a bit of pH buffer while a not-so-very-competent person looked after the fish.
Otherwise there is nothing added to bring the pH down, time and the filtration takes care of this. Attila used to filter the prepp'ed water through peat, but he gave up on it as the fish didn't like it nearly as much as the pure RO. (I had the same observation re Xingús and peat.)
The parent fish arrived in early March 2009 as semi-adult fish, since then they have been in the same tank that's located in a corner of the kitchen, right next to a door, so there has always been relatively heavy traffic around the tank, which they seem to have gotten used to. They are fed primarily on a variety of frozen foods, discus granules and occasionally on fruits. What they accept and enjoy of the latter is very much mood (or season, flavour, etc.?) dependant. (Again, the same as with my Xingús.)

Approx. 36 hours after spawning, more than 90% percent of the eggs look nice and viable, the odd fungussed ones the parents pick out. There are about 100 eggs as we speak. More pics to follow tomorrow.

Nandi

ps.: Temp: 29C.

[nc0gnet0]

How soon after the extended vacation did they lay eggs? Just curious.......Were they fed during this vacation?

[jimg]

Nandi I have the altums and heckles which I have been keeping in 90%+- ro to tap to get an ec of 35 ph is around 5.5 i always kept water with the wilds at 150- 250 ec depending on species. this going this low with ph/ec is new to me.
The question I have is with a very low kh when I let the water go for 2-3 days without changing any the ph will drop(.5-1)) and the ec rises or stays the same the same as you mention, problem I find is when I do wc's with aged water with the same ec as the tank, the ph will be higher so I need to do daily small or add acid to match the ph. If I just lower the ec with more ro than tap to match the ph I would eventually be down to pure ro.
what I'm getting at is the water changes from nitrification and I seem to be chasing it, and there is really no way without raising the kh to stop that, does it really matter?

[Inland Empire Discus]

Happy New Year Everyone!

Here are the 'happy water parameters' as of yesterday evening:
pH: 4.7, EC: 60mS, NO3: somewhere between 0 and 10.
The pure RO-water used for the w/c's has an EC of about 10mS, the extra 50 comes from the life in the tank (food, etc.). The tap water I mentioned earlier is no longer present (or detectable) in the tank, it was only added before the long vacation to provide a bit of pH buffer while a not-so-very-competent person looked after the fish.
Otherwise there is nothing added to bring the pH down, time and the filtration takes care of this. Attila used to filter the prepp'ed water through peat, but he gave up on it as the fish didn't like it nearly as much as the pure RO. (I had the same observation re Xingús and peat.)
The parent fish arrived in early March 2009 as semi-adult fish, since then they have been in the same tank that's located in a corner of the kitchen, right next to a door, so there has always been relatively heavy traffic around the tank, which they seem to have gotten used to. They are fed primarily on a variety of frozen foods, discus granules and occasionally on fruits. What they accept and enjoy of the latter is very much mood (or season, flavour, etc.?) dependant. (Again, the same as with my Xingús.)

Approx. 36 hours after spawning, more than 90% percent of the eggs look nice and viable, the odd fungussed ones the parents pick out. There are about 100 eggs as we speak. More pics to follow tomorrow.

Nandi

ps.: Temp: 29C.

What types of fruit are used to feed them?

[illumnae]

Thank you very much for the sharing. All this while I've been keeping my Heckels and other extreme blackwater fish in pure RO. I, too,gave up on peat and cattapa leaf filtering. My fish have been thriving with no visible ill effects, but there has always been an underlying fear that I am harming my fish as people tell me that I must reconstitute the RO water or my fish will lack essential nutrients. I spent the last 2 weeks experimenting with water in a spare tank due to this. I am really so glad that your friend not only raises his fish healthily in water parameters almost identical to mine, he has had the resounding success of breeding them too!

[NanDiscus]

How soon after the extended vacation did they lay eggs? Just curious.......Were they fed during this vacation?

They did get fed, not loads, but enough to keep them in shape. They laid eggs a couple of weeks after Attila's return from the states. So, the theory of more frequent w/c's with soft water to trigger spawning does seem to work.

Jim,

A 9:1 ratio of RO and tap water resulting in 35ms says to me that your tap water is relatively soft. (By our standards at least.) I don't have totally accurate information about how exactly Attila mixes his water, but according to what he told me over the phone today, he uses plain RO for the w/c's which obviously contains nothing to stabilise the pH. According to him and two another friends who have been keeping wild Heckels (Rio Negros and Nhamundas) for a long time, plus according to my own experiences the trick of maintaining low pH in water with a very low conductivity lies in three things: water volume, stocking density and the method of filtration. All four of us ventured near the levels of 20-30mS and we found that with slow filtration (Just a reminder: I had a single filter on my 260-gallon-tank with a total volume of about 16 gallons and a flow of 100gpd. 100, not 1000.), relatively few fish in a tank (the most densely stocked tank is in fact the one Attila has with about 14 gallons/fish, I had about 35+ gallons/fish), and well-thought out w/c's with pure RO-water it is not only possible, but is fairly simple to maintain the pH-level steady around 4.0. Originally I did not intend the pH in the Xingú's tank to drop to such low levels, however the decrease from about 6.5 to 3.9 took place over a period of over three weeks and did not hurt my fish. They did not really enjoy this, but the same does not apply for the Heckels. The water Attila uses is aged, but not too long and since it's pure RO-water, it does not take too long before the pH stabilises in the holding tank and can be used for w/c's. In my experience, if the tank's water is acidic and you use pure RO with no buffering capacity, the pH does not swing too much. If you add tap water or minerals to it, even in very small amounts, the pH will swing, peak quite high then drop back down again. If this is too frequent, the fish will suffer from it. Bottom line is: if you have Heckels and wish to maintain low EC and rather low pH, it's easy. If you have Greens and wish to maintain relatively low EC (50-150mS) and a pH of around 6-6.5, it's a pain in the behind. Water that does contain buffers will be difficult to keep steady and you have to prepare the water used for changes very precisely not to cause stress with the w/c's. Lastly... If you have Xingús, you can have low EC (30-60) and pH around 7, which is fairly easy to achieve: daily w/c's with very thin mix of RO and tap water.

Bill,
Bananas, mainly, veggies in the form of spinach and spirulina flakes, plus attemps with all sorts of seasonal fruits that are easy to get or grow here (apricot, raspberries, mulberries -the Xingús favourite- and anything that falls to hand).


Illumnae,
According to H. Bleher's Vol.1., the EC in the Heckel habitats can be as low as 7! There can't be too many trace minerals in those waters. Despite this fact, the wild fish don't seem to be suffering from it.
One of my Heckel-keeper buddies does add trace elements into the RO-water: liquid plant fertiliser for his Echinodorus, bringing the EC up to about 40-50mS. PH: 4-ish all the time.

I'll keep everyone posted.

Nandi

[damian_ireland]

Happy New Year Everyone!

Here are the 'happy water parameters' as of yesterday evening:
pH: 4.7, EC: 60mS, NO3: somewhere between 0 and 10.
The pure RO-water used for the w/c's has an EC of about 10mS, the extra 50 comes from the life in the tank (food, etc.). The tap water I mentioned earlier is no longer present (or detectable) in the tank, it was only added before the long vacation to provide a bit of pH buffer while a not-so-very-competent person looked after the fish.
Otherwise there is nothing added to bring the pH down, time and the filtration takes care of this. Attila used to filter the prepp'ed water through peat, but he gave up on it as the fish didn't like it nearly as much as the pure RO. (I had the same observation re Xingús and peat.)
The parent fish arrived in early March 2009 as semi-adult fish, since then they have been in the same tank that's located in a corner of the kitchen, right next to a door, so there has always been relatively heavy traffic around the tank, which they seem to have gotten used to. They are fed primarily on a variety of frozen foods, discus granules and occasionally on fruits. What they accept and enjoy of the latter is very much mood (or season, flavour, etc.?) dependant. (Again, the same as with my Xingús.)

Approx. 36 hours after spawning, more than 90% percent of the eggs look nice and viable, the odd fungussed ones the parents pick out. There are about 100 eggs as we speak. More pics to follow tomorrow.

Nandi

ps.: Temp: 29C.

Nandi ,
Great news. However pure RO water has an ec of 0 or .1 not 10, so something is wrong there.

[jimg]

Nandi ,
Great news. However pure RO water has an ec of 0 or .1 not 10, so something is wrong there.ro di water maybe but usually not ro water mine is usually 8 ppm

[jimg]

Nandi Thanks for the reply I have the altums in a 29 g as they are only dime size 3 of them and 2 larger 1/2 dollar size The filter is a small hob and 1 #5 sponge. the ph only moves .5 to 1.0 every wc but that is what I was wondering where you said the other guy lets the ph go down due to nitrification, but when he does a wc the ph must be quite higher no? I know
I was using the ketapang leaves and stopped because that was drawing the ph down in 2-3 days by 2 points
I will try the straight ro and see how that goes or just continue daily wc,s.
Thanks again

[damian_ireland]

Jim are you talking about tds or ec ?

[jimg]

Jim are you talking about tds or ec ?tds is the 8, ec would be about 16

[KisA]

I think, i have to visit Luki next week with my camera.
KisA

[Second Hand Pat]

I think, i have to visit Luki next week with my camera.
KisA

:grin:

[illumnae]

Thanks Nandi :) I have Heiko's book and thought the same thing, but some discussion elsewhere pointed out that this 8-20EC of natural discus habitats is purely the minerals they need, and is constantly replaced by new water containing such minerals.

My RO water also comes out at 8TDS (don't have an EC meter), so it is extremely similar. Without adding anything, TDS rises to about 50, probably from food, wastes and nitrates. I do about 2x 30% water changes a week and the parameters remain pretty stable, with pH settling at about 5.3.

I'm really glad to hear of the water regime you described as being suitable for Heckels. It had always been my fear that I was not giving them the best that I could afford (which is my philosophy for all my fish - to give them the best that I can, since I'm responsible for them). Even though the Heckels are no longer with me, my other blackwater tank still is, and I'm glad that I've been doing right by my fish!

[jimg]

Thanks Nandi :) I have Heiko's book and thought the same thing, but some discussion elsewhere pointed out that this 8-20EC of natural discus habitats is purely the minerals they need, and is constantly replaced by new water containing such minerals.

My RO water also comes out at 8TDS (don't have an EC meter), so it is extremely similar. Without adding anything, TDS rises to about 50, probably from food, wastes and nitrates. I do about 2x 30% water changes a week and the parameters remain pretty stable, with pH settling at about 5.3.

I'm really glad to hear of the water regime you described as being suitable for Heckels. It had always been my fear that I was not giving them the best that I could afford (which is my philosophy for all my fish - to give them the best that I can, since I'm responsible for them). Even though the Heckels are no longer with me, my other blackwater tank still is, and I'm glad that I've been doing right by my fish! so when your water rises to 50 and you do a wc it must go back to 8 no?
I worry about that, I try to keep it the same but unless i change it often the replacement water will always be lower ec higher ph. just wondering if that really matters

[illumnae]

I only do a 30% water change at a time twice a week, so it's stable around 40-50

[NanDiscus]

Jim,

We never really do w/c's in excess of 20% unless we suspect that there is something wrong with the water. It takes a bit of experimenting to figure out what sort of amounts and how often you have to do w/c's in order to keep the water conditions ideal and the fish content. Giving an exact recipe is close to impossible as two identical setups don't really exist. It is best to start off with foolproof water and from there you can change water with pure RO. Give it a few days before the next w/c and monitor the pH very closely during this period. Once the filter knocks the pH down to approximately where you want it be most of the time, then you make a mix of RO and filtered tap water (or the commonly available salts) to get an EC somewhere between 20-40 (depending on the original EC of the water straight out of the RO-unit). Do a w/c of around 10%, wait half-an-hour, check the pH, drink a beer, go to bed, get up in the morning and check the pH again. If it drops drastically overnight, you have to use a somewhat thicker mix. If it stays about where you want it to be, you got the job right for the very first time, which -rest assured- isn't going to happen. :)

I come back to my usual mindcrime about big tanks once again. I very often see people keeping wilds in 100gal tanks of even smaller. I'm not saying it's impossible, there are and always have been many tanks like that, but for someone who really means business, 200 gallons with no more than 8-10 discus is probably the most optimal choice. A tank like this may not be the ultimate eye-catcher of a living room, but with fine white sand, lots of branches (rather than big pieces of wood) to help the fish mark the boundaries of their individual territories it can be a very promising starting kit.
There is a massive difference between creating sufficient conditions for your wild fish and recreating their original environment as best as you can. Giving good food, good water and the rest of it in smaller tanks is not a wasted effort, but no matter how good all these things are, your fish will always be under a higher level of general stress when 'cramped' together.
My 8' x 2.5' x 2' tall tank was a good choice for the Xingús, but I am already certain that once I'll get the chance to keep wilds again, the tank I'll have will be no smaller 10'x3'x2' at least. With 11-13 Rio Negro Heckels. :)

Nandi

ps.: The Heckel pair's eggs hatched this morning, there were no visible losses since the last report, the parents moved the fry to the far and invisible side of the mangrove. Where else...?

[jimg]

Thanks again Nandi.
The altums are going in a much bigger tank later, 3 of them were barely saved after poor shipping and in the smaller tank I have been doing massive wc's and slowly getting them back to health so I chose the smaller tank.
You are right, I didn't think of the fact in the bigger tank I won't see changes in ph like that. The Heckles are in a bigger tank and with ec about 135 and I don't see those changes as much as in the altum tank. I guess sometimes when we try too hard the simple obvious in hitting us in the face!!

[NanDiscus]

A little update on the Heckels:

The fry went free-swimming in the meantime, there are about 80 fry on the backs of the parents, everyone seems happy and well.
Here's a short video of them. I think it may be my old laptop screen with terrible settings, but I could not make out too much of the fry. I have on the other hand seen discus raising fry many times and this is exactly what these Heckels are doing. :)
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=323020577718589

Nandi

[Second Hand Pat]

You can see a few fry move across the parent's in the foreground as it pecks the bottom if you watch carefully. Totally awesome. Allita must be on the moon.

[NanDiscus]

You can see a few fry move across the parent's in the foreground as it pecks the bottom if you watch carefully. Totally awesome. Allita must be on the moon.

Well, he may well be on the Moon, because it is extremely difficult to squeeze any information out of him. When I do phone him, he opens up and discloses all information I ask for, but in a very reserved way, which is by no means a sign of unwillingness, it is more like his general nature. Which is possibly a condition required by the Heckels. :) Good lad indeed.

Nandi

[Second Hand Pat]

Nandi, on FB he looks "reserved" in a good way. I'm sure he knows that he has accomplished something very special. :)
Pat

[poddan]

It´s very impressive,and thanks for sharing the parameters.

[damian_ireland]

facebook link down ?

[NanDiscus]

facebook link down ?
https://www.facebook.com/groups/145498645514697/267976416600252/?notif_t=group_activity

[Apistomaster]

I am hoping this brood of Heckels get to grow up and that the pair raises more broods.
One of my reasons for giving up my dream of breeding Heckels after three serious attempts over the past 4 decades is I finally decided that it may require much larger aquariums than I could ever hope to have. I tried at least 3 to 5 years with each of my attempts at trying to breed Heckel Discus. If more hobbyists could keep their groups of prospective breeding stock in tanks of 1000 or more gallons/4000 plus liters, I think more pairs would form.
In all my attempts the largest tanks I had available were six feet long 125 gal tanks but I think those are too restrictive for Discus as social as Heckels although in each of my three attempts, each group consisting of 8 to 12 adults, I always had a couple of pairs form which would stake out their own territories and even do some cleaning of a prospective spawning site. Even so, I think they did not have enough room. One thing I never did try was to take one of my possible pairs and set them up in their own 125 gal tank.
The fellow that bought my last group of ten Heckels which I had raised to adults from young fish of about 9 cm in diameter, has kept just one of the pairs and given them a 100 plus gallon tank. He is using almost pure RO water along with some T. cattapa leaves. He lowers the pH to between 3.5 and 4.0 using Muriatic Acid. These conditions induced them to show even more brilliant colors than when I had them.

I like to think that if one had a a few 1000 plus gallon tanks for grow out/pair formation, then place ten or more pairs of Heckels in their own 100 plus gallon tanks that some of the pairs would probably spawn. Unfortunately I will never be able to test my hypothesis due to financial and space constraints.
One can certainly hope that by retaining a large number of the F1's for future breeding stock and providing them with enough space that they may be a little easier to breed than the wild fish if for no other reasons than their lack of various parasites all wild Heckel Discus carry. Even if one does treat them for parasites I doubt that it is possible to eliminate them 100% from wild fish. Given more spacious accomodations would probably help Heckels by diminishing the stresses of captivity such that their natural resistances would be sufficient to strike the balance between parasites and the fishes immune responses such that we might overcome this particular problem enough for bringing our female Heckels into breeding condition.
I think those parasites are the third factor which diminishes our chances of getting our female Heckels into prime breeding condition.

Wouldn't it be a grand experiment to have some huge tanks for the groups, use different regional color forms of Heckel Discus per group tank and have all the 100 plus gallon tanks you need for all the pairs that form?
Some nice comfortable lounging chairs and couches and a big wide screen TV and I would probably rarely leave the room. ;)
Just this guy's Heckel Discus dream fish room.

[NanDiscus]

I am hoping this brood of Heckels get to grow up and that the pair raises more broods.


Unfortunately this brood will not grow up. They are all gone as a result of human error. The pair were not properly separated from the other fish in the tank and the group of fry diminished at a speed of 5-10 fish a day, depending on how many decided to seek 'new parents' in the other group of fish on the other side of the net.
The babies are all gone and so is the net, replaced by a 2" sponge sheet that sitst between the glass sheets perfectly and will not allow the next batch to get through it.
The parents looked a little puzzled for a few days after the sponge was placed in the tank, but now they show every sign of wanting to have another go.
The expectations are high now! :)

Nandi

[Second Hand Pat]

Sad but great news on the next go. Hopefully the foam sheet does the trick.

[Inland Empire Discus]

Going back to the OP question. Kenny (Kenny's Discus) has heckels available this month. They are supposed to be pure.

[wannafish]

Apistomaster - Larry I think it is.
Why not make your dream a reality. With four decades of experience with Heckels, you surely are the
qualified expert to lead the group. Why couldn't you get a few of the administrators on this site and
yourself and make a proposition to Seattle Aquarium or another large aquarium location in the States.
You can propose that you would like to do research on the propagation of Heckels and their breeding behavior
in captivity. There is a Federal Grant program that is available for funding the project. This way you can
put all your experience into practice. You can bring a couch to the Aquarium and have a great view in
one of their large tanks.

Jeff

[Aquanero]

^^^ Great idea if it could be pulled off it would be amazing. A public aquarium would have the space and resourses to do it.

[nc0gnet0]

I have a question, which originates from the recent offering of "Heckels" in forrest/kenny's recent shipment. I was not sure where to post this question, as doing so on that thread wold likely derail it. Ok, heres the question, has there ever been any documentation of the F1 captive breed heckel offspring succesfully producing F2s?

[Discus Origins]

As I am currently the 'trouble maker' on that thread and have asked Kenny to delete my posts, it was def better to have posted here. To my knowledge no documented pure F2s.

[Apistomaster]

Apistomaster - Larry I think it is.
Why not make your dream a reality. With four decades of experience with Heckels, you surely are the
qualified expert to lead the group. Why couldn't you get a few of the administrators on this site and
yourself and make a proposition to Seattle Aquarium or another large aquarium location in the States.
You can propose that you would like to do research on the propagation of Heckels and their breeding behavior
in captivity. There is a Federal Grant program that is available for funding the project. This way you can
put all your experience into practice. You can bring a couch to the Aquarium and have a great view in
one of their large tanks.

Jeff

Jeff,
I was writing up my dream Heckel and other wild Discus fishroom.
I will never be able to do it on my own due to lack of that kind of money, age and a disability I incurred in an auto accident.
I had a major lifestyle change after I got injured back in 1998. I actually lived in a Seattle suburb for 27 years but now I live 307 miles, about 5-1/2 hours drive, from Seattle, WA.
That would make logistics a problem even if I could persuade all the public entities involved to rally to the idea.
Research resources are heavily weighted at the Seattle Aquarium to supporting the important Salmon industry and bottom fish fisheries.
Their tropical fresh water displays are not extravagant although they maintain a very cool large tropical reef tank.
I have always wanted to be able to try the ideas I expressed but I was fortunate that at the very beginning of my foray into wild Discus I already had a retail fish shop. I had my parent's help and they ultimately built a large building for the business. The front third was 36 X 72 feet. I had around 80 to 85 sales and display tanks.
My back room was twice as large. There I kept about 50 quarantine tanks and 50 breeding tanks. I was only 15 years old when we opened for business in 1967 and in 1969 the shop was the largest tropical fish shop in Idaho. I began keeping Discus with only two wild sub-adult Browns. They and a wild pair of Blue Discus breed in 1969. I developed a wide market for my semi-rural region for those who wanted to buy wild Discus and talk with someone who was breeding them. By then I was only 17. It was several years later before I began raising any domestic Discus. They were all Browns and some that were offspring from a plain looking early powder Blue.
I have been very lucky to have had the experiences I have had as a Discus hobbyists. Over the years I have specialized in Dwarf Cichlids, Discus, Angelfish, Corydoras, Pleco and their relatives. I also spent many years raising Killiefish. Somewhere around the 100th species I lost count of all the different Killies I have raised.
I think it is only fair that a younger generation cracks the Heckel breeding code as well as has been done with S. haraldi.
I have had a good run. I am trying to breed my Nhamunda Blues now that they are getting that size and I will probably acquire 8 or 10 medium sized, decent quality medium size wild Green Discus.
I still haven't bred Green Discus but they are a better match for my situation and are still a worthy challenge. Green Discus breeding is eminently doable but Heckels will have to be figured out by others. I am in fact, going through and rehabilitating all my "utility fish tanks". It is part of the next stage in the Blue Discus project and will ultimately allow me to free up a tank for a group of Greens. In the meanwhile I still have a thriving little pleco breeding operation which demands my attentions. I specialized in breeding three popular smaller fancy pleco species. My easiest and cheapest are my L333's. My L134 leopard Frog Plecos are my most popular species and is more expensive. I am still working on improving upon the results I get with my most rarely available and presently an expensive species, L260, "The Queen Arabesque Pleco". I also have been having a little success with raising the cool little L10 Red Lizard Whiptail Cats. I still do breeding of Zebra Shrimp, a couple Killiefish and attempting a very pretty form of Apistogramma agassizi.
Quite a lot considering all I have are 14 to 15 tanks set up.

[NanDiscus]

Breaking news! Again...

72039

The third spawn yielded around 100 fry, they are now six days from free-swimmers. The divider in the tank this time is a 2" foam sheet (man, it's cold in here! :(), sits perfectly, the fry should now be safe.
Day six and counting... More pics will follow soon. Attila is not too generous on this front for some reason. He promised to take some more tomorrow.

Nandi

[Second Hand Pat]

Nandi, that is a beautiful picture. :) The tank is cold? Wonder if Attila doesn't care for all the attention.

[NanDiscus]

Hi Pat!

Attila does care, just does not show it. He says that the fish do the miracles, the pro's do the 'marketing' but he's neither of these two. :)

The cold is in the room where I am - now it's actually better with the fire going. :)

Nandi

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Nandi,

I didn't mean to imply Attila does care, only that sometimes people do not like to receive the attention such an event as heckels spawning can generate.

Glad you are warm now. :)


Pat

[NanDiscus]

Hi Nandi,

I didn't mean to imply Attila does care, only that sometimes people do not like to receive the attention such an event as heckels spawning can generate.

Pat

I leave him with no choice. ;) And he does not mind it.

Nandi

[Second Hand Pat]

I leave him with no choice. ;) And he does not mind it.

Nandi

I see, so you are a pest lol. Good going otherwise we would know nothing :)

[Aquanero]

I see a plant in the tank and sand substrate in the pics. What were the water perameters again? Congrats on a great accomplishment.

[NanDiscus]

And for all the world to see:

72061




Here are the 'happy water parameters' as of yesterday evening:
pH: 4.7, EC: 60mS, NO3: somewhere between 0 and 10.
The pure RO-water used for the w/c's has an EC of about 10mS, the extra 50 comes from the life in the tank (food, etc.). The tap water I mentioned earlier is no longer present (or detectable) in the tank, it was only added before the long vacation to provide a bit of pH buffer while a not-so-very-competent person looked after the fish.
Otherwise there is nothing added to bring the pH down, time and the filtration takes care of this. Attila used to filter the prepp'ed water through peat, but he gave up on it as the fish didn't like it nearly as much as the pure RO. (I had the same observation re Xingús and peat.)
The parent fish arrived in early March 2009 as semi-adult fish, since then they have been in the same tank that's located in a corner of the kitchen, right next to a door, so there has always been relatively heavy traffic around the tank, which they seem to have gotten used to. They are fed primarily on a variety of frozen foods, discus granules and occasionally on fruits. What they accept and enjoy of the latter is very much mood (or season, flavour, etc.?) dependant. (Again, the same as with my Xingús.) Temp: 29C.

The water parameters are exactly the same as they were the last time, Attila keeps things under very tight control.

Nandi

[plecocicho]

What is Atillas water changing regime? How big is the tank, the filter? how many wilds and other fish are in there? congratulations, we are all holding our fingers for him to succeed

[NanDiscus]

A little update here, but first I'd like to answer plecochico's questions.:

The tank is 500 liters with two big air-driven sponge filters, an external filter of a nothing-fancy-type with a relatively low flow setting, roots of Philodendron and Clorophytum inside the tank, w/c's around 20% every other day. There is now an added Eheim filter with a sponge block, that does the circulation between the two sides of the foam.
To my best knowledge Attila sold two of his Heckels out of the 8 he had in the tank, so now there are six adult discus in the tank plus the fry.

It is now time to release the grip a little on those fingers, the fry are all swimming around happily with no losses so far, they are fed both by the parents and Attila, the latter gives them NHBS every two-three hours. They also venture longer expeditions away from the parents now and do the exact same thing as the Xingú babies were doing: grazing on every surface possible.

These pics are not most recent, I think they were shot six days ago, but Attila is still in slo-mo, so there will always be a lag with the reports.

Nandi

72168721697217072171

[Second Hand Pat]

Heckels covered in fry...what a beautiful site.

[Luky]

Hi my friends,

Thanks for your interest and posts. Special thanks to Nandi.

My name is Attila Lukács.

These wild Heckels arrived direct from Manaus in 03.2009 (I imported). Then, the fishes are quarantined for six months. There was no problem in quarantine. Treatment was not necessary.

Now only 1-1 pair in tank. Second pair in out side. They have no eggs. To transfer another tank of the second pair in the near future.

Have a nice day,
Luky

[Crockett]

Amazing, I have not really been following this thread, as I thought they were F1 breeding or Heckel crosses, but now I see that is not the case. Don't know too much about Heckels breeding etc, but from what I have read this has never been done or better still has not ever been documented I think (correct me if I am wrong) , so BIG CONGRATS

[TURQ64]

you are wrong...
Nice batch of fry, matey!...

[NanDiscus]

Amazing, I have not really been following this thread, as I thought they were F1 breeding or Heckel crosses, but now I see that is not the case. Don't know too much about Heckels breeding etc, but from what I have read this has never been done or better still has not ever been documented I think (correct me if I am wrong) , so BIG CONGRATS

The evindence is pictured above. Those Rio Negro Heckels are as real as they can get. ;)

Attila is the second guy I know of who managed to breed "the real thing" and provided unquestionnable evidence of it. The first person is Andrzej Nowicki from Poland. The latter became kind of world-famous for it...

Nandi

[NanDiscus]

Just to keep this thread going, here are a few pictures taken yesterday. The fry are eating like mad, Attila started to add new things to their diet too, so they are no longer sole BBS-eaters. There have been no detectable losses, so things seem to be on the right track.
The other pair are doing all but that...

Nandi

722487224972250

[AngryBird]

awesome sight

[Second Hand Pat]

Nandi, how many fry?

[NanDiscus]

Nandi, how many fry?

The rough estimate is about 80.

[JamesHe]

Awesome, congrats!

[Second Hand Pat]

Attila's Heckel family
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/heckels-1.jpg

[NanDiscus]

Thanks for posting the pic, Pat!

The babies are 27 days old and the count is still ~80.

Nandi

[cjr8420]

any new updates pics?

[Luky]

Hi cjr8420,

Thanks for your interest.

72792

[Len]

It's been quite awhile since last updates. How are they doing? New pics would be great :-)

[jimg]

It's been quite awhile since last updates. How are they doing? New pics would be great :-) +1

[Poco]

They will be about 7 months old by now. Hopefully all of them are still going strong. Pics will be great

[moltrup32]

New danish heckel babies on youtube. :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prvYW3LI3zE

[plecocicho]

Twice in Poland, once in Hungary, two different breeders in Germany and now in Dennmark. I think Europe has officially broken the Heckel code!

[Eddie]

Twice in Poland, once in Hungary, two different breeders in Germany and now in Dennmark. I think Europe has officially broken the Heckel code!

Yes they have!

[Cosgrovb]

How are the F1's coming along?

[plecocicho]

Another heckel succesfull spawn in Europe, htis time in germany (2nd). http://www.rio-negro-diskus.de/aktuelles/

[Apistomaster]

It is very pleasing to me to see how much progress Heckel breeders have made.
It wasn't too many years ago when I discussed the possibility with Al about a dedicated Heckel topic.
It eventually became "The Heckel Project" topic.
My only regrets are that I will never be among those who have successfully bred them. I have tried over my life several times but never quite got there.
My congratulations and respect to all of those who did.
I hope you go on to establish different tank bred, purebred Heckel Discus lines and they become mainstream in the hobby.

[jawfish]

Lets bring back this tread from the dead :-)

Seriously. How time fly... I never got my project underway as I had decided at the time to concentrate on my domesticated discus... I've decided to just to make a full jump to wilds... of course this implies a Heckel project. I've decided to build a 140 gallon tank for them 48L X 30W X 23 H with a 75 gallon reservoir underneath. Anybody else is giving it a go or thinking about it ?

One thing I'd like to brainstorm is preventing PH crash... I got the crazy idea (not my idea... read that Manfred Gobel had suggested using it) of hooking a small calcium reactor to a PH meter but I'm wondering if the hardness is goingbto raise too fast.

Cheers

FRED

[Apistomaster]

Hi Fred,
My recommendation would be to increase the volume and frequency of the water changes. I don't think your pH would tend to crash as long as you changed about 70% of the total system's water volume about every 4th day. Using calcium reactor would tend to increase the TDS don't you think? Maybe I'm wrong but that is what I think may happen.
Heckels have always been my favorite species of wild Discus but the captive breeding of these fish is a tough nut to crack. This coming from someone who prefers wild Discus over domestics anyday.
My only use for domestics has always been as a commodity to be sold.
I hate the complications that often come with age. I have had to sell all my Discus and their tanks. I could no longer keep up with the care they demand and deserve.

[jawfish]

Hi Larry,

The word calcium reactor is overkill, I found the tread on here mentioning it. The link to the italian website is no longer valid
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?60301-Manfred-Gobel-s-divice-for-low-pH

Its a 1 inch PVC tube about 14 inch high filled with calcium media. I agree that the TDS raise is bothering me... I'm going to run the tanks empty at a PH of 4.3 and conductivity at 30us just for the fun and see how fast the conductivity raises without the bioload.

I'm sorry to hear that you no longer have discus.

Fred

[tolga]

Hi Larry
Im grateful for all the help and advise you have given me in the past. I still go back and read some of your earlier posts on heckels. I did go ahead and set up my heckel tank in the end. 3 years on they are still going strong with a number of issues along the road. I wouldn't want to hijack the thread by going into all the details of my set up from the beginning but on Fred's question about the issue of aspiring a ph crash, I could say that it never happened to me. This could be due to the sheer volume of water (1000litres including sump) or the fact that the system is highly oxygen saturated with a fluidized k1 and a pool size oxydator in the sump which may contribute to ph stability. I've been on pure ro with only a small trace of mineral additive designed to provide some GH but no buffers at all not even crushed corrals etc. left to its own devices, my system will stabilize at around 5.5ph which is far from perfect but has been alright. Last year I've experimented with peat and dried leaves and the ph dropped to around 5. I have since moved away from black water conditions and installed a large purigen reactor. I'm stilll undecided as to whether or not I should go back to a more natural tea coloured water. I also experimented with muriatic acid and managed to bring the ph down to 4.5 but unless I use the acid with every water change, the ph would gradually creep up to 5.5. So I've stopped using the acid for the time being. My friend who has a much smaller tank and a canister filter system, however, had a different experience. His ph as far as I remember, plummeted to low 4's. His fish were fine but he was getting worried about his filter bacteria and decided to add crushed coral to his system. So every system is different. I have been away for two weeks recently. During this time the tank was left without any water changes. When I got back, I noticed my ph had remained the same. i don't measure my Kh anymore. I just measure my conductivity and it's around 180micro Siemens. I started paying more attention to the question of achieving some kind of a mineral balance in an attempt to try and replenish some of the calcium that gets lost due to the oxidation. Some people have spoken about using dosing pumps to add calcium and magnesium but not calcium carbonate as such. Anyhow, good luck with the project.
Tolga

[jawfish]

Thanks Tolga...

Hey don't be shy to describe your set-up... a 3 year old tread with 13 pages is there to discuss ;) Inspiration is always welcomed :D

I am planning a large system close to your capacity i.e. 800 liters with the sump for a population of 8 fish. A small amount of crushed coral in the filter has been suggested also as a solution when trying to have them breed with the PH at 3.9-4.2 and the conductivity at 15us...

Yhea I need also to revisit this tread from page 1 to 13...

Cheers,

Fred

[Altum Nut]

If there is anyone who is most determined to succeed...it's you Fred. I just worry about the stability value of ph when it's that low. I don't see the TDS where you mentioned being as much of a problem to maintain. Take your time my friend and will be nice to see your progress project thread.
As for Larry...always a pleasure to hear from him. I hope he at least is able to make it out to the river to cast his favorite flies.

...Ralph

[tolga]

Hi Fred. Thank you for your comments. I might start that tread one of these days although this is still an ongoing project and there is plenty of room for improvement always. I think you should go ahead and make small adjustments if it becomes necessary. With 15 us you r talking almost pure ro as it comes out of the ro unit at around 10us depending on your unit ofcourse. With food and fish waist plus regular water changes, it could indeed stabilize around 15us. This is more or less what I've tried to do when I've started, albeit with a higher ph as I've tried to let the ph settle on its own without any external input. It was fine to start with but then I had this whirling thing. I'm not saying this to scare you and I'm certainly not an expert on this but I subsequently decided based on what I've read here and elsewhere that the lack of positive mineral ions due to constant oxidation in a closed environment might compromise the fishes osmoregulation even extreme soft water fishes such as heckel. I know these are the actual parameters in the wild where they live and breed but in captivity it may be more complicated somehow. I'm not exactly sure and I need to check it again but as far as I remember, Heiko Bleher suggested a conductivity below 100us when discussing the setting up of a nhamunda biotope aquarium as opposed to their actual amazon environment. I'm sure Altum angel keepers would have more experience in maintaining such extreme parameters. One thing that may make a difference though would be the use of peat and/or dried leaves. I think these humic substances (if that's the right word) work with the fishes mucus layer and maybe provide some kind of barrier. Maybe if had a proper black water type system things might have been different but my system is a room divider and as such it is open on all sides except one so I tried to go for clearity and to keep the dissolved organics as low as I could in the hope that my fish would adapt. This is, of course, not recommended for Heckels by the experts. So there you go. My two cents as they say.
Tolga

[jawfish]

Thanks Altum nut... I'll start a thread here in next month with the tank build and so forth... I do not expect Heckels before October, but theres plenty of things to do and questions that I need to answer by then.

Tolga, please start a tread, This sections is kinda slow... A little action is going to be welcomed by all ;)

I got whilrling twice in the last 20 years. First time was with some Tefe, the second time was with some Stendker Kobalts. In both instances the PH was 6.5 and the hardness was about 160us. Not Pleasant.

Last month, in a facebook group, Bleher mentioned that the PH remains the same year round, but the conductivity varies, lowering of the conductivity would triggers spawning. So the plan would be get the Heckels, let them go trought a quarantine, then take care of them for a few months and start lowering the conductivity from 160 to 15 in late spring early summer, if nothing happens then bring back the conductivity in October and then try again the next year.

I agree to try to produce blackwater with a combination of Almonds leaves and peat. I already do it lightly for my breeding pairs, I just need to increase the amount of peat and leaves.

Nutrition is one thing I need to revisit my Bleher volume 1. I know it varies seasonally. I think this is part.

Another thing I've read Bleher mention a few times is sand ??? Does any one know why ?

Cheers,

Fred

[tolga]

Hi Fred, i think sand allows them to engage in their favourate activity of squirting water from their mouths to free the food particles and they do this all day long almost like eartheater cichlids. I decided to not have any bottom feeders to cut out completion. They sometimes swallow sand particles unintentionally and release them from their gills but sometimes they excrete them along with every thing else. I think the grain of sand needs to be fine otherwise bits might get stuck and cause a blockage as it happened with one or two of mine. I ended up having pool filter sand but the grains which are around 2mm may not have been fine enough as I was worried about compacting so it's always a balancing exercise I suppose also sand allows the detritus to remain on top. Thanks
Tolga

[tolga]

Sorry just a quick correction. I wasn't correct when I said pool filter sand. It's actually an aquarium sand similar to a PFS but not as fine.
Thanks

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi guys, in my conversions with Nandi (NanDiscus here on Simply) he always insists on sand too. Says the wild discus like to shift thru it looking for things to eat. Sort of supports their natural grazing way of eating. If you wish to maintain blackwater type conditions many altum and some wild discus keepers use Rooibos tea. Buy it loose and add a small amount to your water column. The tea has anti-fungal and anti-bacterial properties also. If you look thru this section there is a thread where a member got two pairs of heckels to spawn. Might be worth a read. Here is one of the thread with heckels breeding. http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?43094-Heckel-Spawn!!. The water parameters might surprise you.
Pat

[tolga]

Hi Pat thank you for this link. This is one amazing achievement. Shame we never got to find out what happened to the fry.
My other heckel keeper friend started to use Rooibos tea in his tank and is very happy with the results.
Tolga

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Pat thank you for this link. This is one amazing achievement. Shame we never got to find out what happened to the fry.
My other heckel keeper friend started to use Rooibos tea in his tank and is very happy with the results.
Tolga

The thing I find interesting Tolga is the ph is not the super low ph people recommend for heckels. I am not saying not to keep heckels at a low ph but rather a ph bump might help be a trigger for spawning. For example when we read the measurements taken on Amazon waters they seem to be generally taken during the dry season. Discus do not breed during the dry season but at the beginning and during the wet season. So what happens to the water to trigger spawning beside being higher and cooler?

[DiscusOnly]

Pat,

Where do you get your Rooibos tea? I've been out of almond leaves for the past 6 months. Maybe I'll try the tea instead.

Van

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Van, try this http://www.amazon.com/Davidsons-Tea-Organic-African-16-Ounce/dp/B000SATIE6/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1430927294&sr=8-2&keywords=Rooibos.+Tea.
Pat

[tolga]

that sound interesting. I suppose the water would get more acidic during the dry season but would it rise that much with the rains? I suppose that would depend on the mineral composition of the soil around the river or the lake and whether the rain water is seeping through dry and decaying vegetation. The water would be diluted to a great extent I'm sure and there might even be a slight increase in ph along with the lowering of the temperature and abundance of live food etc. It might be a good idea to find out if there are any published water readings regarding the various lakes and tributaries of the amazon during the wet season and the dry season. Approximately a year ago, two of my heckels started displaying, shaking and cleaning a section of the driftwood. Another heckel also tried to get in on the act. I was getting very exited but things did not go any further and this behaviour has not repeated itself since. As far as I remember, my ph was again around the 5.5 mark and my conductivity might have been lower than it is now also white worm has made a huge difference. So I don't know. I'm not determined when it comes to breeding heckels, partly because I'm not that experienced and the various difficulties I've encountered along the way has lowered my horizons. I'm just enjoying these remarkable fish, watching them swim in harmony when the sun is not shining on them and even engaging in what I can only assume is some kind of a grooming behaviour where one of the smaller ones cleans the largest of the bunch. Having said that, I haven't had any major problems for quite a while now and my fish are well and settled so who knows what may happen. A miracle perhaps...
Tolga

[DiscusOnly]

Perfect.. Thanks Pat

[tolga]

Also, on you tube there appears to be a number of videos of this guy spawning paununi heckels from Hudson. In one video, you can watch two sets of pairs spawning under two different drift wood tents inside the same tank. I can't remember the details but it is fairly recent. He has also included some videos of his black worm breeding tanks which might also have contributed to his success. Apart from that I'm sure we have all seen the Polish guy and his detailed heckel breeding set up reviewed in Heiko Blehers Discus book 2 (sorry his name I can't remember but he runs the Super Discus website and attends some of the discus shows in Europe).
Tolga

[jawfish]

Thanks Pat for the link... I have to admit I would not have taught to visit a 9 year old tread, but I guess the search button is there for a reason :embarassed:

Tolga: Andrzej Nowicki... His videos are responsible for getting this crazy project in my head.
Now theres serveral more not helping... Damned Internet

Interesting, if I understand Bleher correctly not all Heckels are created equal :confused:
He mention's in the tread that the Heckels from the Rio Abacaxis is from an area where the PH is 5.7...
The other thing that caught my eye was the spawning season... He mention's that this spawn take place at the right time and its short...
This got me to do a youtube search on most Heckels spawn video... the one I saw were from late March to early May.

Its interesting about the sand... Bleher also quickly mention's it in Volume 2 also did a quick read last night ;)
Now the question is how fine should it be, can it be too fine... I need to go to the Hardware store and check what they have in the 1mm range I guess.

PH may remain the same during rain season, Bleher insist on it, but its the hardness i.e. conductivity that changes, It drops.
Also the feeding changes less detritus more insects, more fruits... The habitat changes also, not sure I'm going to bother with this one.
I need to jive down all of this, plus my other notes into a single page and post it... Several heads are better than one.

Hey Al this forum is great !!! You guys and gal are motivating me in this one... Plus Pat Homesteader section has really convince to jump over the fence to concentrate on Wild discus only, yes I'm joining the darkside :D

Cheers,

Fred

[jawfish]

So whats everybody up to ?

In my case I'm starting to build a 140 gallons plywood tank for the Heckel, this weekend, it will be 50 inchs long, 23 high and 30 wide. I'm actually building two as i want another one for some Browns or Xingus... This is a practice run as I want to build something much bigger in a few years and I figure might as well do a smaller version first. I'll set-up a new tread when I actually have some things built ;-)

Cheers,

Fred

[Altum Nut]

Can't wait for the start and completion of that build thread Fred.

...Ralph

[CliffsDiscus]

I'm no expert in breeding wild Heckels, but I was able to artifically raise one spawn. This was also publish by Tropical Fish Hobbyist by Dr.Iggy Tavares.

Cliff

[jawfish]

Hi Cliff, I went to see in the TFH archive,,, Too bad you lost the male soon after,

Hey Ralf here's a teaser for you. The shell is built, now it's time to sand and waterproof. One thing I will admit I love the 30 inches of width...
88843

Cheers,

Fred

[rickztahone]

Very nice. Are you using pond liner black?

[jawfish]

Thanks Ricardo,

I'm using Pond Shield by Pond Liner, its a two part non toxic epoxy. I decided on Tan as background color.

[rickztahone]

Thanks Ricardo,

I'm using Pond Shield by Pond Liner, its a two part non toxic epoxy. I decided on Tan as background color.

Very nice. Did you see Joey's latest YT project for a 300g (If I remember correctly) tank made out of plywood?

[jawfish]

Very nice. Did you see Joey's latest YT project for a 300g (If I remember correctly) tank made out of plywood?

Yes I did, I'm building in a similar fashion, just smaller... I want to try for a couple of years. Eventually I'd like to step up to the same size he built.

[rickztahone]

Yes I did, I'm building in a similar fashion, just smaller... I want to try for a couple of years. Eventually I'd like to step up to the same size he built.

yeah that was a pretty cool build. I hate how easy he makes it look, lol. Great guy though.

[Second Hand Pat]

Cool Fred, definitely will follow your Heckel project. Also there is another thread where a guy successfully spawned heckels and had wigglers. He posted his water parameters and that was a bit of a surprise.
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

Check out this thread http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?43094-Heckel-Spawn!!.
Pat

[rickztahone]

Check out this thread http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?43094-Heckel-Spawn!!.
Pat

That's a mighty good memory you have there missy :)

[Second Hand Pat]

That's a mighty good memory you have there missy :)

and pretty cool thread :o

[jawfish]

Thanks Pat,

I saw the tread. I was also surprise by the PH level...

I've been experimenting with a new discus mix formula, with my current discus. This is a non beef heart mix, I based myself on Norbert Koch formula that he shared on facebook a while back.

Proteins: 1kg of salmon, 1kg of shrimps and 750 gr of steamed mussels.
I ran this mix 3 times in the meat grinder
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v684/jawfish/11220071_10205729940222449_4530577951421599618_n.j pg

Fruits and vegetable. 1 pack of blanched bok choy. 2 large carrots. One can of unsalted peas and 4 bananas.
I ran this mixture once in the meat grinder.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v684/jawfish/11027999_10205729940462455_7448257781688808736_n.j pg

I then mix everything and added the following supplements:
4 cooked egg yolks, 1/2 gratted nutmeg, 5 vitamins capsules , 6 probiatic capsules, 4 cloves of garlic, 20gr of peat dust, 2 teaspoon of calcium powdered, 3 teaspoon of powdered spirulina.

I mix it in the food processor for 90 seconds and added Agar Agar as a binder.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v684/jawfish/11540911_10205729940902466_1673109163625132759_n.j pg

My current discus love it. Next time I will add more components and fruits.

[Second Hand Pat]

Fred, not sure if you know Nandi. His username is NanDiscus and he has been wildly successful with breeding wild Xingu and he experimented with different fruits. I will try and find that thread.
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

Here it is if interested http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?86305-Edible-Greens-For-Wilds&highlight=Edible+greens.
Pat

[jawfish]

Hi Pat,

Yes I've exchanged with Nandi. His Xingu adventure is one of the most interesting tread on this forum, in my eye, but that's me. I think the concept of keeping one specie from one region and trying to preserve it, is something that a Hobbyist can aspire to do well. The size can be managed by most hobby fishroom, the imports are available for new blood once in a while. This is what I want to do as a hobby, I've grown so disillusioned with domesticated discus, that wilds became the only answer. Plus your videos of your Cuipeuas simply tipped me overboard :D Cuipeuas are my leading candidate right now.

The Heckel project is in parallel, but so different. This is a real challenge. A lot of mysteries, some limited success here and there, but We still are not seeing F2 or F3s. At least no one is really coming forward yet. Thanks for the link, I have visited it. I think nutrition is one key of the equation. A big key, fruits, flowers, nuts... They have been found in discus stomach. I'm taking the approach of adapting my aquarium and nutrition to the fish. For me this is a big experiment.

Cheers,

Fred

[CliffsDiscus]

[QUOTE=jawfish;1167223]Hi Cliff, I went to see in the TFH archive,,, Too bad you lost the male soon after,

Cheers,

Fred[/QUOTE

Hi Fred,
There is a picture on the pair in NADA's Website, under the photo gallery.

Cliff

[jawfish]

Hi Cliff couldn't find the picture.

I admit being impatient for the new season to start. I'm still undecided as to wich region of Heckel I want to get. I'm debating between Namundha or Unini... They are distinct and in two opposite direction...

Cheers
Fred

[CliffsDiscus]

Hi Cliff couldn't find the pictur

Cheers
Fred

Hi Fred,
I think you have to be a member to look at the pictures. Might be a good time to join since there is a membership drive.

Cliff

[jawfish]

My bad Cliff,

I was not looking into the forum. I found them. Pretty cool to see the fry in the bowl.
p.s. Yes I'm already a member, but for those not a member yet, the membership drive is a good time to join.
I will be at NADA 2016... Lets get a Heckel project meet with some cold beverages going on :D

Cheers,

Fred

[tonysdiscus]

This would be great if there is something about heckels going on at NADA 2016.

[jawfish]

Tony if theres nothing official. We will definitly have some could beverage discussion going on.

It will be my first NADA convention, Im counting on meeting some Heckel Pojects participants and would be participants. :-)

Cheers
Fred

[tonysdiscus]

Tony if theres nothing official. We will definitly have some could beverage discussion going on.

It will be my first NADA convention, Im counting on meeting some Heckel Pojects participants and would be participants. :-)

Cheers
Fred

Sounds good Fred, this will be my first time as well.So excited to go
-Tony

[Second Hand Pat]

Count me in :D
Pat