How to go from gravel to bare bottom without crashing the bio system?

[Sasha]

It's clear from many of the posts on this forum that a bare bottom tank is highly recommended for "growing out" discus. Can someone clarify what the "growing out" stage is? Does this include the 3" juvie stage?

I tried removing about 3 cups of gravel each day for several days during water changes, and I ended up crashing my system - producing a slight ammonia spike and an even bigger nitrite spike. I presume it was because I removed too much of the nitrifying bacteria that was living in the gravel?

I have a HOB filter, and just 4 days ago I added Eheim SubstratePro to the filter box. I also have a pre-filter sponge on the water intake tube. If I remove all the gravel I'm concerned that I won't have enough surface area for the bacteria.

Any advice you can provide would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[TURQ64]

1. Grow out refers to discus up to sub adult/ adults...
2. No. most likely, stirred up detritus in the gravel substrate caused the spike
3. Add a sponge filter if you don't already have one...Gravel isn't the best place to grow bacteria in a Discus tank...I have no experince with the Eheim product, so someone else will need to comment...Gary

[Sasha]

Gary - thanks! I don't have sponge filter. If you know of a good one, I'd appreciate any tips or guidance. After I put in the sponge filter, how long should I wait to remove the gravel? And should I do it slowly (a few cups at a time?)

I had no idea that stirred up particles could cause a spike like that. Have any others out there experienced this?

[TURQ64]

ATI sponges in various sizes thru KensFish.com ... Oxygen Plus #4 thru FosterandSmithAquatics.com Glad to be of help...Sponges take a while to get the colony of bacteria going..there are many brands of starter bacteria on the market..Many swear by them, others consider them bunk; your decision...I sometimes use them, but never depend on them

[Darrell Ward]

The size of sponge filter you need depends on the size of your tank. For a tank like a standard 55 gal. up to around a 125 gal., I like to use 2- Hydro Sponge III, one in each corner. The IIIs are versatile, and can be used in different sized tanks without taking up too much space. I would run them one to two weeks to seed them. To remove your gravel, I would move your fish to a temporary tank or bucket containing tank water, drain the tank, remove the gravel, fill, replace fish, and run the sponges along with your HOB for a few weeks.

[Sasha]

Ok - thanks! So you think it will be less stressful on the fish to move them to a bucket vs. removing the gravel over time while they are still in their home tank? I have to be honest, I'm a bit nervous about catching them in a net. They can be really fast and dart around when they want to. :-)

[Bud]

Agree with Darrell.I have an AC110 with prefilter and 2 hydro IV's in my 75!and I waited a solid 3 weeks to let ALL my sponges culture before I removed the sponges my breeder gave me(also a BB tank).I also never let any debri from filters enter tank water when cleaning,seems to really p. them off!Id imagine gravel removal would be same scenerio.You have a BIG net?theyre cheap.JMO

[Keith Perkins]

Ok - thanks! So you think it will be less stressful on the fish to move them to a bucket vs. removing the gravel over time while they are still in their home tank? I have to be honest, I'm a bit nervous about catching them in a net. They can be really fast and dart around when they want to. :-)

YES. Well, at least less stressful on them, you having to catch them is a completely different matter. Pull a little water out of the tank before you go to catch them. Gives you a little comfort zone at the top and less area for you to catch them in.

[gsteve]

Here is what i did. I syphoned 80% of the water out while gravel vaccing to get as much debris out as possible. Then i used a dust pan to scoop out the gravel. I then refilled with treated water and then cleaned the filter after about a hour. Never lost a fish.

[Sasha]

LOL. I guess I have some tolerant juvies. They don't seem to mind much when I vacuum the gravel, despite the floaties that inevitably occur when I do so. I'll get some sponge filters today and will see how my water parameters react over time. Do you think I'll continue to see some small amount of ammonia and nitrite readings until I completely get rid of the gravel? My readings are hovering between 0-0.25 ppm despite my daily water changes.

[gsteve]

I thought i was doing a great job gravel vaccing , i did it 3x a week , thought i was getting it all. After 8 mons all of a sudden all my discus were sick. Didnt think it was the gravel holding junk because i was doing such a good job vaccing. After trying everything drug wise i lost 3 out of four fish. The last guy just sat there hanging in. He looked terrible. I was prepping my tank for my next attempt at discus , it was to be bare bottom. Thats when i removed all the gravel. My last guy came back strong and has now gasined all his size back and then some. BB from now on for me.

[Darrell Ward]

LOL. I guess I have some tolerant juvies. They don't seem to mind much when I vacuum the gravel, despite the floaties that inevitably occur when I do so. I'll get some sponge filters today and will see how my water parameters react over time. Do you think I'll continue to see some small amount of ammonia and nitrite readings until I completely get rid of the gravel? My readings are hovering between 0-0.25 ppm despite my daily water changes.

When the sponge filters cycle, your ammonia levels will likely drop to zero.

[Sasha]

Many thanks to all who have replied :-) By the way, I vac as thoroughly as I can every time I do a change (daily), and sometimes will do a "mini-vac" after a feed. It's a lot of work and I look forward to the day when I can ease up a bit and still have happy, healthy fish.

It does seem odd that my Penguin BioWheel 200 with 2 filter (floss) cartridges and the Eheim biomedia - plus a pre-filter on the water intake tube - wouldn't be enough to handle the bio-load of 4 juvies in a 37 gallon tank.

[Keith Perkins]

Many thanks to all who have replied :-) By the way, I vac as thoroughly as I can every time I do a change (daily), and sometimes will do a "mini-vac" after a feed. It's a lot of work and I look forward to the day when I can ease up a bit and still have happy, healthy fish.

It does seem odd that my Penguin BioWheel 200 with 2 filter (floss) cartridges and the Eheim biomedia - plus a pre-filter on the water intake tube - wouldn't be enough to handle the bio-load of 4 juvies in a 37 gallon tank.

Those filters would handle your fish with ease if the tank was bare bottom, but when you have gravel holding nasties you change the dynamics dramatically. A gravel bottom tank on it's cleanest day is probably still a lot dirtier than a bb one needing a WC.

[Darrell Ward]

Perhaps your tank was merely cycled, and not fully established. It can take months for a tank to mature after initial cycling. It can be a fragile thing until that happens, with the bacteria still growing and expanding.

[Ardan]

Hi,
To remove gravel, I siphon it out. The hose has to be large enough, but siphoning out the gravel also siphons out all debris that is in the gravel at the same time.
I Don't remove all the gravel at once to allow any beneficial bacteria loss to be built up in the filter.

Just my way of doing it.
hth
Ardan

[Sasha]

You all have been so wonderful with your thoughts and suggestions. So if the gravel holds all the nasties, maybe I should just get on with it and remove the gravel now and treat with Prime as needed until the appropriate levels have been established with BB cleanliness???? Ugh, this can be so confusing. Thank goodness for all of you helping us newbies.

[Darrell Ward]

You all have been so wonderful with your thoughts and suggestions. So if the gravel holds all the nasties, maybe I should just get on with it and remove the gravel now and treat with Prime as needed until the appropriate levels have been established with BB cleanliness???? Ugh, this can be so confusing. Thank goodness for all of you helping us newbies.

That might not be a bad idea, but you'll definitely have to keep a sharp eye on it, and be ready to do large water changes until the bacteria levels rise.

[zimmjeff]

I have a 75 planted tank with gravel and no matter how good I think i am doing there is always a ton of crap in the gravel.

[mikel]

To change from a planted to a BB tank, it's quite easy. Take the fish out...you can round them into a plastic bucket to get them out after you have siphon out as much as the water as possible. Then, take a plastic scoop and shovel away. Dump the disgusting gravel in your garden.

Clean tank with vinegar, wipe down with bounty towels...(use lots and be generous). Refill tank, add several cap ful of Prime, turn on seasoned HOB filter, add fish. Do 75% wc daily for the next month...everyday! Then after that, do at least 50% Wc eveyday, feed good food, and watch your fish grow. If you do substantail wc everyday, who cares about spikes? But you CANNOT miss even one day...not even if you are sick, especially during the first month. Very simple. mike

[Jhhnn]

I've never done what you describe- I just started my tanks BB with sponge and canister filters, but I'm not big on radical changes for my discus. If it were me, I'd just suck out some of the gravel with each vacuuming, keep doing that until it was all gone. Meanwhile, I'd definitely use Prime (I do anyway). That's if you don't have undergravel filters. For that, removing the fish, taking out the gravel & plates & refilling would probably be best. UG filters don't work well at all unless they're completely covered in a fairly thick layer of gravel.

Establishing sponge filters is faster if they're squeezed in & out a few times in some gooky tank water, which loads them with bacteria & a snack to get them established... The sponges may not want to sink at first, so I load the inner tube with ball bearings or marbles for a few days until they sink on their own... I use small airstones in the ATI sponges I get from Kensfish. They need maintenance once in a great while, but they keep the noise down & may give better aeration, dunno that for sure....

[Sasha]

You all have been terrific. I have learned something new in each one of your responses. Thank you!

I will let you know my final course of action and how it all turns out, so that others can learn from this experience.

I will reiterate how incredibly helpful this Forum is. It's nice to feel supported by those with real experience.

[jimg]

Hi,
To remove gravel, I siphon it out. The hose has to be large enough, but siphoning out the gravel also siphons out all debris that is in the gravel at the same time.
I Don't remove all the gravel at once to allow any beneficial bacteria loss to be built up in the filter.

Just my way of doing it.
hth
Ardan

+1 done this a few times with flourite.

[DerekFF]

Hi,
To remove gravel, I siphon it out. The hose has to be large enough, but siphoning out the gravel also siphons out all debris that is in the gravel at the same time.
I Don't remove all the gravel at once to allow any beneficial bacteria loss to be built up in the filter.

Just my way of doing it.
hth
Ardan

Ive done it this way. Gets pretty much everything out without stirring it all up and all youre left with is a BB tank. Also Tetra makes a product called SafeStart. Works great, especially in a tank with fish in it. I cycled my tank in 3 days with it. Dont know if id try it with a bunch of discus in the tank, but so long as theres ammonia in the tank the safe start will populate you sponges and filters SUPER fast.

[nc0gnet0]

The size of sponge filter you need depends on the size of your tank. For a tank like a standard 55 gal. up to around a 125 gal., I like to use 2- Hydro Sponge III, one in each corner.

While it is true that most filters are rated by tank size, really it is a bit of a misonomer and not totally acurate. The size of your sponge filter(s), or any filtration for that matter, is directly proportianal to your bio-load.

Rick

[Jhhnn]

While it is true that most filters are rated by tank size, really it is a bit of a misonomer and not totally acurate. The size of your sponge filter(s), or any filtration for that matter, is directly proportianal to your bio-load.

Rick

I'd agree with that, in general. I personally use the #3 ATI sponge filters because they fit in & out of standard tank openings easily. I also use an extra step or riser at the base to make siphoning away debris easier. If I need more capacity, I just add more sponge filters, and get added aeration as a bonus. It's easy when you have a central air pump.

[JustinJDH401]

I also have gravel (50 pounds in a 55 gallon). I am trying to grow out my 2 month old juveniles and after reading these posts, i am starting to realize that this is too much!

Any advice on what i should do?