ammonia in tap water

[rorie87]

After adding my new 6 discus, i went to 50% once a day water changes. I checked a couple times before checks and noticed 0.25ppm of ammonia, so the changes were required.

But, AFTER todays water change (a couple hours later) i checked the ammonia and it was 0.25ppm!! I have 2 good mature filters on the go, doing 50% water changes each day, and a week on i still have ammonia?! That aint right!

So i went to check my tap water....and i have ammonia in it! 0.25ppm! What does this mean for me? Do i need to get the ammonia out of the water before adding it to my aquarium?

All this time, may i add, my discus have been laying eggs! So i guess they are happy!

[moon_knight1971]

Are you conditioning the water before adding it to the tank? If so, what are you conditioning it with? Most conditioners will convert ammonia into a harmless form for the fish....

[rorie87]

Using sera dechlor.

But my tap has 0.25, and hours after adding to my tank, my tank reads 0.25....

[moon_knight1971]

Do you have an old or expired test kit? How long has your tank been running?

[flyman767]

What you are reading is chloramines. This is your what most water municipalities are using to replace straight chlorine. It is chlorine and ammonia combines to form chloramines. When you use a dechlorinator, it will convert the toxic ammonia to a non-toxic form...nothing to be alarmed over.

[Jason K.]

get some safe, or prime...

[Eddie]

get some safe, or prime...

Yup, some dechlors will not convert ammonia to ammonium so its important to make sure. Your bacteria bed can utilize the ammonium for nitrification.

[Latro]

Incidentally, do these dechlors create some sort of complex to keep ammonia in its ionized form? I keep hearing that they convert it to its ionized form, but unless they do something else as well it'll just spike back to the unionized form unless the pH is low.

[Eddie]

Incidentally, do these dechlors create some sort of complex to keep ammonia in its ionized form? I keep hearing that they convert it to its ionized form, but unless they do something else as well it'll just spike back to the unionized form unless the pH is low.

Or the bacteria convert it to nitrite. ;)

[ericatdallas]

Incidentally, do these dechlors create some sort of complex to keep ammonia in its ionized form? I keep hearing that they convert it to its ionized form, but unless they do something else as well it'll just spike back to the unionized form unless the pH is low.

It reacts to form a semi-stable ammonium salt... not exactly sure what, but my guess is ammonium sulfate because de-choramine solutions are usually made with sodium bisulfate.

Again, just a guess... not a chemist, but I'm pretty sure it's in the ballpark.

[Latro]

It reacts to form a semi-stable ammonium salt... not exactly sure what, but my guess is ammonium sulfate because de-choramine solutions are usually made with sodium bisulfate.

Again, just a guess... not a chemist, but I'm pretty sure it's in the ballpark.
Ammonium sulfate is soluble in water (like almost all ammonium salts), and so in aqueous solution would exist only as ammonium ions and sulfate ions. The ammonium ions could easily drift away from the sulfate ions, being entirely stabilized by a shell of water molecules. You'd need a very highly stable complex, like the kind of complex you get when metals react with EDTA, to keep water from having its way with the species you're trying to isolate.

I should clarify that my statement is not quite accurate; the pKa of NH4+ is about 8.5, so at pH 8.5 you have 50/50 NH3/NH4+, at pH 7.5 10/90 NH3/NH4+, and at pH 6.5 you have 1/99 NH3/NH4+. (This ignores all the myriad of acid/base reactions that are possible in an actual fish tank, with the exception of proton exchange with water, so take it with a grain of salt.) So it doesn't just all spike back to ammonia, but it would, without complex formation, go right back to where it was (inorganic acid/base reactions are extremely fast).

[ericatdallas]

Ammonium sulfate is soluble in water (like almost all ammonium salts), and so in aqueous solution would exist only as ammonium ions and sulfate ions. The ammonium ions could easily drift away from the sulfate ions, being entirely stabilized by a shell of water molecules. You'd need a very highly stable complex, like the kind of complex you get when metals react with EDTA, to keep water from having its way with the species you're trying to isolate.

I should clarify that my statement is not quite accurate; the pKa of NH4+ is about 8.5, so at pH 8.5 you have 50/50 NH3/NH4+, at pH 7.5 10/90 NH3/NH4+, and at pH 6.5 you have 1/99 NH3/NH4+. (This ignores all the myriad of acid/base reactions that are possible in an actual fish tank, with the exception of proton exchange with water, so take it with a grain of salt.) So it doesn't just all spike back to ammonia, but it would, without complex formation, go right back to where it was (inorganic acid/base reactions are extremely fast).

Well,..

1) Like I said, it was a guess based on the potential reactions involved. I don't know if you need a VERY stable compound, but I don't know (see #2 :). I suppose I know a few environmental engineers I could ask, they might know but that'll have to wait until next week.

2) It looks like you're better equipped to answer your own question than I am. If you find out, it might be good info for the rest of us in the future. I don't have chloramine or ammonia problems nor do I use Safe, Prime, or sodium metabisulfate - I use sodium thiosulfate as my dechlorinator.

[ericatdallas]

Found something... or re-found it... I remember reading this before, but had forgotten about it.

http://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?topic=34531.0

[Jhhnn]

My Denver water has chloramines, so I definitely use Prime. Some people have switched to Seachem's dry product, Safe, which has the same ingredients, other than water. Another product often used with chloramine treated water is Cloram-X, and there are others, I'm sure.

None of these actually remove ammonia, but rather convert it to harmless ammonium. Normal test kits don't work right in Prime treated water, because they convert ammonium into ammonia, measure that. They'll drive you crazy.

To my knowledge, only the Seachem ammonia test it will give accurate results when using Prime or similar-

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/MT_Ammonia.html

They cost more, and aren't easy to find locally, but they're widely available online. I like and use Seachem's nitrite/nitrate test kit, as well.

I updated the sticky thread in the water works section to link Seachem's current ammonia test kit page.

[seanyuki]

Other ammonia brands test kits usually are Nessler based and may give you inaccurate readings when using Seachem Prime/Safe for testing ammonia......as stated above better use Seachem test kit......perhaps use a Salicylate based reagent testing method.

[Eddie]

Just to keep this on track, Rorie, don't worry about it, everything is fine. ;) If you have an established bacteria bed, there is absolutely nothing to worry about. Also, doing daily water changes, and using the right dechlor is another fail safe. I highly recommend using Safe from Seachem, its extremely cost effective and very little goes a LONG way. ;)

All the best and let me know you if you have any other questions!

Eddie