HEATERS

[Steven Turitz]

I have been researching for over a year now all the variables necessary to re-enter the aquarium hobby with a "Discus-Only" showtank.
The more I research the more confused I get with all the different information.
So I am going to try and isolate the important variables that I need to resolve,
and tackle one variable at a time.

RE: So, with that being said, can we talk "HEATERS" ??????

Can you please all share with me your heater setup and structure (type, brand, location, placement and wattage) !!!!!!

One of our SimplyDiscus members, Jose (jcardona1) initiated a thread (see link below)
that was phenomenally interesting and informative, maybe one of the best threads I've ever subscribed to.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?87275-A-monster-journal...My-190g-wild-discus-biotope!

In his thread he referenced BeanAnimal.com (see link below).
http://www.beananimal.com/articles/aquarium-heaters-what-you-need-to-know!.aspx

Below is BeanAnimal wattage guide.
A basic guideline is to have three to five watts per gallon for every 10° Fahrenheit above room temperature that you wish to have keep the tank temperature.

((Desired Tank Temp − Room Temp) ÷ 10) × System Gallons × 3 = Watts Desired

Example:
100 Gallon System
78° Target temp
67° Room temp

Using both the low and high values:
(78 − 67) ÷ 10) × 100 × 3 = 330 Watts
(78 − 67) ÷ 10) × 100 × 5 = 550 Watts

A good place to start would be to use (4) 100W or (3) 150W heaters.

Is this Discus specific accurate information ???????

Thanks
Steve

[ericatdallas]

It's discus-neutral information. Plug in your target temperature and your ambient room temperature (think worst case scenario, so if you let it drop to 60F in the winter, use that number) and see what you get.

How many heaters is for you to decide your risk and budget. The more heaters you have, the less likely your discus will die due to a heater failure. The negative to that is the more heaters you have, the more it costs and the more room it takes.

To answer your question, it's not discus-specific because it's a very good guideline for all fish/aquariums.

[Discusgeo2]

I use the 3 watt per gallon rule and for my 305 gallon cube. I have a 1000 watt Aqua Medic Titanium Heater Element powered off a Ranco controller set at 84 degrees. I always check the temp on all my tanks and so far the Ranco controller has out performs all controllers I have used to date.

http://i508.photobucket.com/albums/s323/13SouthwestDiscus/Acrylictank.jpg

http://i508.photobucket.com/albums/s323/13SouthwestDiscus/RancoETC-111000.jpg

http://i508.photobucket.com/albums/s323/13SouthwestDiscus/aqua-medic-titanium-heater-image.jpg

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

volume of water x 8.33 x Delta T / 3414 / 8 hours* = kilowatts needed.

100gal x 8.33 x 10 = 8330

8330 / 3414 = 2.44

2.44 / 8 hours = 0.305 kW

*8 hours is a standard number for time to heat up. This number could be smaller, or larger depending upon application. As a rule of thumb, never go above 12 hours, as beyond that you would be fighting evaporative heat loss through available surface area (unless tank is well insulated).

A 300 watt heater should be more than enough for your system, assuming no greater than a 10 degree increase over ambient temp.

Also, I agree with George. Ranco style controllers are an "industry standard" and are considered very high quality and very accurate. They are available in a wide variety of electrical configurations and capacities.

-Ryan

[Steven Turitz]

It's discus-neutral information. Plug in your target temperature and your ambient room temperature (think worst case scenario, so if you let it drop to 60F in the winter, use that number) and see what you get.

How many heaters is for you to decide your risk and budget. The more heaters you have, the less likely your discus will die due to a heater failure. The negative to that is the more heaters you have, the more it costs and the more room it takes.

To answer your question, it's not discus-specific because it's a very good guideline for all fish/aquariums.


Hi Eric
Thank you for your post.
That 60F example you used was ironic.
That is the exact temperature that the lower level of the house is set at in the Winter. The lower level is where I will most likely place all the equipment for the system (filtration, heated water change storage, etc. etc. etc).

http://www.jehmco.com/html/heaters.html
"General rule of thumb for sizing is 3 - 5 watts per gallon of water. Stay on the higher side of range if your room’s ambient temperature is lower than normal (as in basements) or if you are keeping very warm water fish such as Discus"

If I use the BeanAnimal equation and I go with the planned 150 gallon tank and use the Jehmco formula at 5 watts per gallon, am I correct that I need 1950 watts of heaters (4 x 500W Titanium Heater with a Ranco Controller) for the Discus-Only Main Showtank and the same for the heated water change storage ?

"The negative to that is the more heaters you have, the more it costs"
I realize the cost for heating hardware will be a few hundred dollars (heaters, controllers, and "Heater Adapter for Sumps" from Jehmco to mount the heaters through the sump wall). I imagine the heating equipment cost would be alot less expensive than replacing a tank of Discus that could be lost due to a heater malfunction.

Thanks
Steve



I use the 3 watt per gallon rule and for my 305 gallon cube. I have a 1000 watt Aqua Medic Titanium Heater Element powered off a Ranco controller set at 84 degrees. I always check the temp on all my tanks and so far the Ranco controller has out performs all controllers I have used to date.

http://i508.photobucket.com/albums/s323/13SouthwestDiscus/Acrylictank.jpg

http://i508.photobucket.com/albums/s323/13SouthwestDiscus/RancoETC-111000.jpg

http://i508.photobucket.com/albums/s323/13SouthwestDiscus/aqua-medic-titanium-heater-image.jpg

George
Beautiful tank. Thank you for the post, your input, and the feedback.
That Ranco Controller keep on surfacing and appears to be the "STANDARD" that the experienced Discus keepers (the pros) turn to.
Thanks
Steve

[Steven Turitz]

volume of water x 8.33 x Delta T / 3414 / 8 hours* = kilowatts needed.

100gal x 8.33 x 10 = 8330

8330 / 3414 = 2.44

2.44 / 8 hours = 0.305 kW

*8 hours is a standard number for time to heat up. This number could be smaller, or larger depending upon application. As a rule of thumb, never go above 12 hours, as beyond that you would be fighting evaporative heat loss through available surface area (unless tank is well insulated).

A 300 watt heater should be more than enough for your system, assuming no greater than a 10 degree increase over ambient temp.

Also, I agree with George. Ranco style controllers are an "industry standard" and are considered very high quality and very accurate. They are available in a wide variety of electrical configurations and capacities.

-Ryan

Heya Ryan
Thank you for your post.
As you can see I am still "RESEARCHING". I am happy that I have had the patience and fortitude to continue my quest for Discus knowlege. I have to be 100% positive that every facet of this "Discus Journey" is the perfect approach, at least in my mind.
You have always been an invaluable source of aquatic experience with a wealth of knowledge.
I have changed direction several times in regards to almost every element of the system, including the filter system that we worked on together.

The lower level is where I will most likely place all the equipment for the system (filtration, heated water change storage, etc. etc. etc) in the Winter is set at 60F.

http://www.jehmco.com/html/heaters.html
"General rule of thumb for sizing is 3 - 5 watts per gallon of water. Stay on the higher side of range if your room’s ambient temperature is lower than normal (as in basements) or if you are keeping very warm water fish such as Discus"

If I use the BeanAnimal equation and I go with the planned 150 gallon tank and use the Jehmco formula at 5 watts per gallon, am I correct that I need 1950 watts of heaters (4 x 500W Titanium Heater with a Ranco Controller) for the Discus-Only Main Showtank and the same for the heated water change storage ?

BeanAnimal formula is ((Desired Tank Temp − Room Temp) ÷ 10) × System Gallons × 3 = Watts Desired
Therefore, (86F-60F) = 26 divided by 10 = 2.6 x 150 = 390 x 5 Watts = 1950 Watts for the Main Showtank, and the same for the heated water change storage.

Thanks
Steve

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Steve, with a Delta T of 26F, I came up with around 1,200W requirement for the 150 gal display tank. That is around 8W per gallon. However, if I remember your system correctly, there will be a bit of water movement from the tank to the filtration system (air to water exposure). I would feel comfortable saying you may need upwards of 1,800W to ensure adequate heating capabilities. Keep in mind, this does not include the volume of the filtration system, so the total wattage required may change considerably depending on which route you go.

Here is a link to one of our "Tech Talks" about sizing heating systems in general (very general overview):
http://www.aquaticeco.com/pages/full_width/94/Heater-Sizing


-Ryan

[ericatdallas]

Hi Eric
Thank you for your post.
That 60F example you used was ironic.
That is the exact temperature that the lower level of the house is set at in the Winter. The lower level is where I will most likely place all the equipment for the system (filtration, heated water change storage, etc. etc. etc).

http://www.jehmco.com/html/heaters.html
"General rule of thumb for sizing is 3 - 5 watts per gallon of water. Stay on the higher side of range if your room’s ambient temperature is lower than normal (as in basements) or if you are keeping very warm water fish such as Discus"

If I use the BeanAnimal equation and I go with the planned 150 gallon tank and use the Jehmco formula at 5 watts per gallon, am I correct that I need 1950 watts of heaters (4 x 500W Titanium Heater with a Ranco Controller) for the Discus-Only Main Showtank and the same for the heated water change storage ?


((Desired Tank Temp − Room Temp) ÷ 10) × System Gallons × 3 = Watts Desired

According the BeanAnimal equation I'm getting you should need about 1600W which will bring you up to a max of 95F. I would say don't over-do it, but at the same time, 2000W is a reasonable excess especially since you're going to throw a controller on to it. It's also reasonable to shoot for 1500W because according to that equation, you can achieve 93.33F which is available to you for whatever reason you may want it higher, you can always throw an extra heater on then... The main reason I would shoot a little over what you need though is because for whatever reason your room temp could drop to 50F, a little more wattage can help with temperature stability, and I don't think you should ever work any piece of equipment to maximum specs and a 10% buffer is always a decent figure to consider. You should also consider that manufacturer ratings don't necessarily translate to real world performance...

It's your call... I would say it's reasonable to say you could do with 3x500W heaters, 4x400W heaters, but I wouldn't do more than 4x500W or less than 4x300W which will put your on target at (87F).

[Discusgeo2]

Steve check EBay I have seen new ones sell for around $50.00 plus shipping if you want to use buy it now like I do. You can get them at a lower starting price if you don't mind fighting all the other people bidding on them. I am someone that when I need it I buy it outright and don't mess with bidding unless I see something almost ending then I may wait. I have 3 of the Ranco's controllers, 2 on are my 2 water storage containers and the one on the 305 gal tank.

[Steven Turitz]

Heya Ryan
You are so very right.
The Discus-Only Showtank has a volume in gallons as does the filtration setup sump !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I did not figure in the filtration sump volume in my calculations.
I did not include the volume in gallons of the filtration sump setup (if the filtration setup is separate components as you had designed with separate sump, separate MBBR chamber, separate UV), or, even "The Perfect Discus Wet/Dry Filter" that we designed together.
Ryan to the rescue again.
Happy Easter
Steve

[Steven Turitz]

((Desired Tank Temp − Room Temp) ÷ 10) × System Gallons × 3 = Watts Desired

According the BeanAnimal equation I'm getting you should need about 1600W which will bring you up to a max of 95F. I would say don't over-do it, but at the same time, 2000W is a reasonable excess especially since you're going to throw a controller on to it. It's also reasonable to shoot for 1500W because according to that equation, you can achieve 93.33F which is available to you for whatever reason you may want it higher, you can always throw an extra heater on then... The main reason I would shoot a little over what you need though is because for whatever reason your room temp could drop to 50F, a little more wattage can help with temperature stability, and I don't think you should ever work any piece of equipment to maximum specs and a 10% buffer is always a decent figure to consider. You should also consider that manufacturer ratings don't necessarily translate to real world performance...

It's your call... I would say it's reasonable to say you could do with 3x500W heaters, 4x400W heaters, but I wouldn't do more than 4x500W or less than 4x300W which will put your on target at (87F).

Hi Eric
I am still coming up with 1950 watts...........
(86F-60F) = 26 divided by 10 = 2.6 x 150 = 390 x 5 Watts = 1950 Watts for the Main Showtank, AND, the same wattage for the heated water change storage system.

Can you please show me where I'm calculating incorrectly.

And that number is now inaccurate as after Ryan posted and brought to my attention, I forgot to add the volume of the sump in the filtration system to the 150 gallons of the Discus-Only Showtank.

"1600W which will bring you up to a max of 95F"
"1500W because according to that equation, you can achieve 93.33F which is available to you for whatever reason you may want it higher"
Would I want the extra wattage to heat above 86F, say to 93.33 - 95F, for medication reasons if I ever needeed to dose the tank with antibiotics ???

Thanks
Steve

[Steven Turitz]

Hi George
I will also have multiple Ranco Controllers as you have.
Separate controller with multiple titanium heaters for the water storage tank,
and
separate controller with multiple titanium heaters for the 150 gallon Discus-Only Showtank (plus adding in the volume in gallons of the filtration system sump).
Are you good with the BeanAnimal formula to calculate heater wattage needed ?????

Where have you placed the Showtank heaters ?????

Thanks
Steve

[Darrell Ward]

For what it's worth, I use one 250 watt heater on a 150 gal. tank @ 86F with no problem in a climate controlled 70F room. It will easily raise the tank to 90F if I want. I also use two 250 watt heaters in a 55 gal. sump with a 240 gal. tank. I think a lot of people use "too much heater" for their needs. I know I have been guilty of this in the past.

[ericatdallas]

For what it's worth, I use one 250 watt heater on a 150 gal. tank @ 86F with no problem in a climate controlled 70F room. It will easily raise the tank to 90F if I want. I also use two 250 watt heaters in a 55 gal. sump with a 240 gal. tank. I think a lot of people use "too much heater" for their needs. I know I have been guilty of this in the past.

I kind of agree with you but I had a tank with a "under-rated" heater (2Watts per gallon) and one side was properly heated but the other side was as much as 10 degrees lower during the winter. Part of it has to do with water flow but I think the heater rating matters too... as my other tanks with proper heaters don't have that imbalance problem. The one with the heater problem I just stuck another heater on the other side.

[leeishom]

I was 2, 300 watt jagers. Connected to a Ranco unit; heating my 180G.

[ericatdallas]

Hi Eric
I am still coming up with 1950 watts...........
(86F-60F) = 26 divided by 10 = 2.6 x 150 = 390 x 5 Watts = 1950 Watts for the Main Showtank, AND, the same wattage for the heated water change storage system.

Can you please show me where I'm calculating incorrectly.



I'm using the 3x factor you're using the 5x.



Would I want the extra wattage to heat above 86F, say to 93.33 - 95F, for medication reasons if I ever needeed to dose the tank with antibiotics ???

Thanks
Steve

Yup... or even just be prepared in case you room temperature drops to 50F. Or for the case where one heater fails to turn on. Or for the case when heaters don't perform to spec... etc.

[Steven Turitz]

"I'm using the 3x factor you're using the 5x."

Eric, I should have been able to figure that out...... Discus dancing in my head, obviously now in retrospect, not brains (lol).

"Yup... or even just be prepared in case you room temperature drops to 50F. Or for the case where one heater fails to turn on. Or for the case when heaters don't perform to spec... etc."

Good points. I like the idea of covering all variables and possibilities. Thanks.

[ericatdallas]

"I'm using the 3x factor you're using the 5x."

Eric, I should have been able to figure that out...... Discus dancing in my head, obviously now in retrospect, not brains (lol).

"Yup... or even just be prepared in case you room temperature drops to 50F. Or for the case where one heater fails to turn on. Or for the case when heaters don't perform to spec... etc."

Good points. I like the idea of covering all variables and possibilities. Thanks.

I thought of another one... I keep a heater and sponge filter at the ready in case I need to start a QT tank for a fish I just had to get but wasn't planning to. Not sure if that is so much an issue any more, but about 4 months ago I needed to setup a tank very quickly and I used a questionable heater that I could see moisture in the glass. After that I decided it was best to have a spare. I still didn't buy one. Shortly after, one of my heaters wasn't strong enough to keep the water over 75F and that's when I decided to always keep a spare. Even if you don't have it plugged in, they're cheap enough that it's a good idea to have one around.

[Jhhnn]

A couple of things not addressed here are the effects of insulation and the desirability of backup overheat control.

Even the thinnest of construction foam insulation (1/2") on the back and bottom of aquaria greatly reduces heat loss and electrical consumption. Keeping really tight lids with minimal openings has much the same effect. One of our contributors, MMorris, I think, even covers their tanks with reflectix at night. Aging barrels benefit from similar treatment, too. I have two 75gal systems w/ 250W heaters insulated like that, in a room where the temp can drop as low as 60F at night, and the heaters never fail to keep up.

Multiple smaller heaters address the issue of backup overheat control in a round about way, if they're not too big. If one sticks on, it won't be enough to cook the fish, in theory. Multiple heater elements on a single control don't do it- they just address the other side of it, an element failing open, not heating. In order to have good control, the system needs series thermostatic control, where one part of the system, normally closed in operation, will open the circuit if the primary controller sticks on. Using conventional heaters set to a higher temp than the controller will do that, or using two controllers with the operating points wired in series will, too. The latter is probably the best, if one is willing to spend the money and has the wherewithall to accomplish it.

For display tanks, it seems to me that overflow/sump systems would allow heaters to be concealed in the sump , or canisters w/ inline heaters and a separate controller would work well, too...

Cheap heaters are a really bad buy, as, I think, are ones being too gimmicky. I just stick with Jagers, set 'em to 90F, slave them to either Ranco or Finnex controllers set to a lower temp. It works, and keeps me from being nervous about cooked discus... That happened to me once, long ago, and I don't want any repeats.

[Steven Turitz]

A couple of things not addressed here are the effects of insulation and the desirability of backup overheat control.

Even the thinnest of construction foam insulation (1/2") on the back and bottom of aquaria greatly reduces heat loss and electrical consumption. Keeping really tight lids with minimal openings has much the same effect. One of our contributors, MMorris, I think, even covers their tanks with reflectix at night. Aging barrels benefit from similar treatment, too. I have two 75gal systems w/ 250W heaters insulated like that, in a room where the temp can drop as low as 60F at night, and the heaters never fail to keep up.

Multiple smaller heaters address the issue of backup overheat control in a round about way, if they're not too big. If one sticks on, it won't be enough to cook the fish, in theory. Multiple heater elements on a single control don't do it- they just address the other side of it, an element failing open, not heating. In order to have good control, the system needs series thermostatic control, where one part of the system, normally closed in operation, will open the circuit if the primary controller sticks on. Using conventional heaters set to a higher temp than the controller will do that, or using two controllers with the operating points wired in series will, too. The latter is probably the best, if one is willing to spend the money and has the wherewithall to accomplish it.

For display tanks, it seems to me that overflow/sump systems would allow heaters to be concealed in the sump , or canisters w/ inline heaters and a separate controller would work well, too...

Cheap heaters are a really bad buy, as, I think, are ones being too gimmicky. I just stick with Jagers, set 'em to 90F, slave them to either Ranco or Finnex controllers set to a lower temp. It works, and keeps me from being nervous about cooked discus... That happened to me once, long ago, and I don't want any repeats.

Ok, so I am clear with my structure.......
150 gallon showtank and 50 gallon sump = 200 system gallons
@ 3 to 5 watts per gallon as recommended by BeanAnimal and 5 watts as recommended by Jehmco
(86F-60F) = 26 divided by 10 = 2.6 x 200 = 520 x 5 Watts = 2600 Watts

So in overkill mode (which is my comfort zone) I would have 2 Ranco controllers, each with four 300 Watt Jagers.
I believe that you prefer heaters with their own thermostats controlled by a controller for thermostat redundancy and greater operating control and safety. If the controller fails the Jagers will heat up with their own internal thermostats. Am I correct ?
What do you mean "operating points wired in series" and "slave them" ?

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

IMO, if you are considering that much wattage, it would make more sense to go with a single, commercial grade heater. Yes, multiple smaller heaters work great for smaller wattages, but when you are going for that much power, you will run into far less problems going with a commercial grade heater. This comes from experience working with customers in your same boat. I have had several customers go the route you are planning initially, but in the end switch to a commercial grade heater just for the sake of simplicity. Yes, you do lose the redundancy factor, but with these heaters I have never had reports of the controller "sticking on". IF something were to go wrong with the unit, it would be the fuse that's mounted to the heating element itself. Even then, the power would be cut off to the heating element until the fuse is replaced or reset (depending upon the option you choose).

http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/3033/Process-Tech-Heaters-Single-Phase

Or even consider an inline heater if you want to keep the sump less cluttered looking:

http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/3926/Aqua%20Logic®%20In-Line%20Heaters

-Ryan

[ericatdallas]

Get a 1000W and a 1800W and you're all set with redundancy too! :)

[TURQ64]

a little sidetracked, but..yesterday, I had an older marineland heater break in my Heckel tank..Had new Jager's on order, but figured it'd work 'till the new ones came..cracked and fell apart right at the level of the windings...was still on, and fish were still looking fine..unplugged, removed, and fished out the broken glass...UPS delivered the new ones about a half hour later...glad I didn't ground it out by vaccuuming!

[Darrell Ward]

GOOD GRIEF! It's totally insane to use 1000's of watts for 200 gals. unless your tank is set up in a walk in freezer, period! It just makes no sense when 500 watts will more than do the job in a normal, climate controlled room. At 1000 watts, you could boil the tank water in an hour or two if you had no thermostat. I've been using two, 250 watt heaters on nearly 300 total gallons forever without problems. It will easily raise the tank temp. to 90 + by just cranking it up a bit. I just fed the fish not 10 minutes ago, and the temp. is holding a steady 84 F, and has been for weeks. If the heaters are in the sump, you'll have the same temp throughout the tank, with no "cold spots". You are way, way, far and away putting entirely too much "what if" thought into this. It ain't rocket science dude!

[nc0gnet0]

GOOD GRIEF! It's totally insane to use 1000's of watts for 200 gals. unless your tank is set up in a walk in freezer, period! It just makes no sense when 500 watts will more than do the job in a normal, climate controlled room. At 1000 watts, you could boil the tank water in an hour or two if you had no thermostat. I've been using two, 250 watt heaters on nearly 300 total gallons forever without problems.

Finally, a voice of reason. That seems to be an incredible amount of poverkill to heat that size tank. Why not just use an electric range as a stand? Having too much/many heaters creates a larger temperature drift within the tank, an issue no one here has addressed. Just because the controller cuts the power to the heater, doesn't mean the heater magically and instantly stops adding heat to the aquarium.

Once the desired temparture has been reached within the aquarium, you only need to have anough power to overcome the ambient heat loss, plus a margin of safety. So rather than figure out how long it takes to heat the tank from temperature A to Temperature B, a better computation would be to figure out how quickly the heat dissipates, when full and at the desired temperature. This is the figure that needs to be overcome, preferable by a factor around 3x.