Radical change in setup: Plants for sand substrate?

[DiscusBR]

Hi all,

I am remodelling my 80g completely. I used to have driftwood and a few plants (annubias and echinodorus), as shown in a previous video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0AaYNxek90

It was a nice setup. However, as explained in another thread, I started having huge problems with brown algae. When I came back from a 32-day trip, the algae had taken everything and the dark brown color will not go away from the Manzanita driftwood. It looks awful and I am not going to use it again.

I then took everything from the tank (the driftwood and the plants) and the algae problem disappeared. It led me to conclude that the culprit was the tank planters that I was using. Since I had a sand substrate, I was using plastic planters with substrate and fertilizing pellets. They definetely contained phosphates and were feeding the algae. So I am done with them.

I am going now for a more biotope-like look, with Manzanita driftwood branches hanging vertically in the tank. I will not have wood touching the sand substrate. That facilitates cleaning so much!! I would like to request advice, however, on the possibility of having plants in the new setup. I will not have CO2 and lighting will be low (I have one 54W T5 lamp that will be on for 6 hours/day). I think plants help by consuming nitrates and make the tank look nice. My question is: which plants would thrive in a sand substrate with no fertilizers and in low-light? Annubias would be a natural choice, right? But would there be Amazonian plants (Echinodorus?) that I could use to keep a biotope-like look?

Thanks in advance.

[discuspaul]

Hello again, Mauro, long time no speak.
So, you're doing a re-vitalizing job on your tank - the idea of dw branches set up vertically sounds quite good - lots of great-looking tanks are set up that way. And yes, agree that a few well chosen, well placed plants would look real nice.
You had Anubias before, did you not ? I have 2 types, growing slowly but well, and I really like them.
I think you could maintain the biotope look with a couple of Echinodorus plants. I have 3 different varieties in my tank, planted in PFS, and they're really thriving - but that's due to the usage of root tab ferts in the sand.
I think you would find that pretty well all rooted plants would need root tabs to grow well in sand, unless you go higher tech with CO2 and a good dry fert regime. I also feel the need to occasionally dose Excel and other liquid ferts to keep them all healthy looking.
Suggest you might also consider a single Aponogeton Ulvaceous in one corner, or perhaps one or two Red Lotus, or Tiger Lotus.
Best of luck with your re-vamp.

[DiscusBR]

Hello again, Mauro, long time no speak.
So, you're doing a re-vitalizing job on your tank - the idea of dw branches set up vertically sounds quite good - lots of great-looking tanks are set up that way. And yes, agree that a few well chosen, well placed plants would look real nice.
You had Anubias before, did you not ? I have 2 types, growing slowly but well, and I really like them.
I think you could maintain the biotope look with a couple of Echinodorus plants. I have 3 different varieties in my tank, planted in PFS, and they're really thriving - but that's due to the usage of root tab ferts in the sand.
I think you would find that pretty well all rooted plants would need root tabs to grow well in sand, unless you go higher tech with CO2 and a good dry fert regime. I also feel the need to occasionally dose Excel and other liquid ferts to keep them all healthy looking.
Suggest you might also consider a single Aponogeton Ulvaceous in one corner, or perhaps one or two Red Lotus, or Tiger Lotus.
Best of luck with your re-vamp.

Hi Paul,

Always nice to hear from you. Thank you for your feedback. Yes, I had anubias, but I was considering moving closer to a biotope by adding only plants from the Amazon. Thus my question about Echinodorus varieties. However, I am afraid of using root tab ferts and having problems again with algae. Don´t these tabs contain phosphates? I don´t want to deal with algae anymore. So maybe I will have no plants in the new setup.

So I am reframing my question: Are anubias the only plants that will do well in a sand substrate with no C02 and no root tab and liquid fertizers?

[Skip]

how often do you do water changes

[DiscusBR]

how often do you do water changes

During the problems with brown algae, I was doing 60% WCs every other day. Now that the algae problem has diasppeared I am doing two 60% WCs per week.

[discuspaul]

IME Mauro, even Anubias and Java Fern will not do well in a (sand substrate) discus tank without some form of even light fertilization. Even frequent WCs don't seem to provide sufficient beneficial minerals & other elements for plant growth, and fish waste gathering around plant stems wouldn't do much good as you would likely be siphoning that out with your WCs, for appearances sake. As you know, some form and amount of algae growth are a fact of life in aquaria, and very difficult to avoid altogether. As I mentioned before, any plantings in the substrate will also require some amount of fertilizing.
You could try Anubias, Java Fern, or other rhyzome plants without any ferts, but I don't believe they would thrive at all. btw, I do believe you can obtain root tab ferts that contain very little or no phosphates - never really looked into it.
I've been running my latest discus tank fairly heavily planted, for close to 2 years, with very little algae present at any time, except for one bout of GDA which I got rid of after trying several different approaches to dealing with it.
Good luck with everything, whatever you decide to do.

[DiscusBR]

Well, I had anubias attached to my driftwood without any fertilization in my previous setup and they were doing very well. If anubias can thrive attached to driftwood, can´t they also thrive in the sand, without ferts?

[discuspaul]

Sorry my comments weren't very clear - I didn't mean it the way I think you may have taken it.
First, it does surprises me somewhat that your Anubias were doing very well without any fertlization whatsoever. How long a period was that for ? I wouldn't know what type of nutrients driftwood would provide, if any - but heck, if they did well for you in that environment over a reasonable period of time, then I suppose they may do ok for you in sand, as long as the rhizome portion was at least partially exposed. My main point was that stem plants rooted in sand would not do very well ime without some fertilization to be drawn by those plants from the substrate, along with some nutrients taken from the water column too.

[DiscusBR]

Sorry my comments weren't very clear - I didn't mean it the way I think you may have taken it.
First, it does surprises me somewhat that your Anubias were doing very well without any fertlization whatsoever. How long a period was that for ? I wouldn't know what type of nutrients driftwood would provide, if any - but heck, if they did well for you in that environment over a reasonable period of time, then I suppose they may do ok for you in sand, as long as the rhizome portion was at least partially exposed. My main point was that stem plants rooted in sand would not do very well ime without some fertilization to be drawn by those plants from the substrate, along with some nutrients taken from the water column too.

Hey Paul, no reason to be sorry, you were very clear. I am the one with the usual interpretation problems :crazy: Thanks for continuous advice.

I don´t know much about planted tanks, but I have read that anubias are hardy plants that do well attached to driftwood in low-tech setups (low-lighting, no C02, no ferts, etc). I had them for more than three months and they seemed to be thriving, growing new leaves. That is all the experience I have.

Right now I think I will not have plants in the new setup. I feel really relieved that I have had no algae in my tank since I took out the plants, as well as the substrate and fertilizing pelets that accompanied the few planters I had. If I cannot find a hardy plant that can do well in a low-tech tank with sand substrate, then my only decoration will be Manzanita driftwood.

[x2h]

hey i used to have exactly the same request as you do, and since i have experience with planted tank, i designed by myself the system in the link below:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/tank-journals-photo-album/140430-ok-i-took-plunge-75-g.html

I used soil, root tab, and miracle-gro fertilizer in the pots, and yet the water column now has 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 5 ppm nitrate, 0.15 ppm phosphate. very little algae. that's because the fertilizer are all locked in by the pots and sand (I now use seran wrap instead of cotton in the pot bottom to seal it). any ammonia produced by the fish are sucked up by the big plant mass I think. and the plants are thriving because they get fertilizer from both the roots and the leaves, but the algae are starving. this seems to be a positive cycle for me.

Another key to this, is to keep the water well circulated. i found out that algae will grow on leaves that stay still in the water, especially those at the surface, but not on those in a current. big difference. Well circulated water also keeps the water oxygenated, and stimulate the growth of the bacteria that converts nitrite to nitrate. that's why I aim the outlet of the filter/water pumps towards the surface, because it agitates the surface to improve oxygenization. leaves close to the surface are closest to the light, and most attractive to algae. the water movement on the surface prevents the algae from growing.

I put a pair of discus into the tank 5 days ago, and they spawned yesterday:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?89601-Discus-spawned-too-soon

I just wanted to share this with you and hope it provides some info.

[DiscusBR]

hey i used to have exactly the same request as you do, and since i have experience with planted tank, i designed by myself the system in the link below:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/tank-journals-photo-album/140430-ok-i-took-plunge-75-g.html

I used soil, root tab, and miracle-gro fertilizer in the pots, and yet the water column now has 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 5 ppm nitrate, 0.15 ppm phosphate. very little algae. that's because the fertilizer are all locked in by the pots and sand (I now use seran wrap instead of cotton in the pot bottom to seal it). any ammonia produced by the fish are sucked up by the big plant mass I think. and the plants are thriving because they get fertilizer from both the roots and the leaves, but the algae are starving. this seems to be a positive cycle for me.

Another key to this, is to keep the water well circulated. i found out that algae will grow on leaves that stay still in the water, especially those at the surface, but not on those in a current. big difference. Well circulated water also keeps the water oxygenated, and stimulate the growth of the bacteria that converts nitrite to nitrate. that's why I aim the outlet of the filter/water pumps towards the surface, because it agitates the surface to improve oxygenization. leaves close to the surface are closest to the light, and most attractive to algae. the water movement on the surface prevents the algae from growing.

I put a pair of discus into the tank 5 days ago, and they spawned yesterday:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?89601-Discus-spawned-too-soon

I just wanted to share this with you and hope it provides some info.

Thank you, x2h. I can only say .... WOW :shocked: What a terrific planted tank! And congratulations for the amazingly fast spawning. It shows what a great job you are doing. Congrats.:thumbsup:

I wish I could invest more resources and time to start a nice planted tank like yours, but I am trying to go simple and low tech. I travel a lot and thus maintainance is an issue. But thank you for sharing your setup.

[biotopica]

My 75g proyect is quite similar to yours. I also have the wood (in my case is red moor roots) sinking vertically without touching the sand, and the natural efect is quite nice IMO, and it makes much easier the sand cleaning, as well as provides huge space for the Corydoras to act naturally. You can see some pics in here: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?87098-Amazonia-proyect-75gal-high-tech

However, I do have more light and CO2, but i guess u would get the same results with less light and no CO2, although slower growth rates.

I do have pool filter sand as only substrate, without tab ferts for the roots (indeed, I havent dosed any kind of fertilizer yet) and I keep a nice Echinodorus bleheri, Ludwigia arcuata (stem and fast grower, good for nitrates catch up), Cyperus helferi, and Vallisneria americana gigantea and Vallisneria mini twister.

So far, the Echinodorus is growing quite fast, just as the Ludwigia, and the Vallisnerias are constantly sprouting new runners and plantlets.

I think u can try the Echinodorus... maybe two or three nice ones, without the need (oposed to popular belief) of any root fert. ANd if u want to keep natural biotope, only that. If, by contrary, want to go more eclectic, the Vallisnerias can work pretty well too.

Just my two cents.

PS: Amazing discus u have.

[DiscusBR]

My 75g proyect is quite similar to yours. I also have the wood (in my case is red moor roots) sinking vertically without touching the sand, and the natural efect is quite nice IMO, and it makes much easier the sand cleaning, as well as provides huge space for the Corydoras to act naturally. You can see some pics in here: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?87098-Amazonia-proyect-75gal-high-tech

However, I do have more light and CO2, but i guess u would get the same results with less light and no CO2, although slower growth rates.

I do have pool filter sand as only substrate, without tab ferts for the roots (indeed, I havent dosed any kind of fertilizer yet) and I keep a nice Echinodorus bleheri, Ludwigia arcuata (stem and fast grower, good for nitrates catch up), Cyperus helferi, and Vallisneria americana gigantea and Vallisneria mini twister.

So far, the Echinodorus is growing quite fast, just as the Ludwigia, and the Vallisnerias are constantly sprouting new runners and plantlets.

I think u can try the Echinodorus... maybe two or three nice ones, without the need (oposed to popular belief) of any root fert. ANd if u want to keep natural biotope, only that. If, by contrary, want to go more eclectic, the Vallisnerias can work pretty well too.

Just my two cents.

PS: Amazing discus u have.

Hi biotopica. Thank you for sharing your setup. A lot of interesting and useful information. You tank looks great and it is really similar to what I am trying to do with mine. I also agree that by having wood hanging vertically it becomes much easier to clean the tank and the corydoras have more room to move around. Intresting to know that your Echinodorus are doing well. I will follow your thread to see how your setup evolves. However, I think I will work only with Anubias. That is the advice that I am getting from the main provider of aquatic plants here in Brazil. Let's see...

Nice to know that you liked my Cuipeuas. As explained in another thread, one of them died after I made a mistake during a WC. The remaining 5 discus started to fight too much, so I am getting two more this weekend. I will post new pictures of the new setup when I get the plants and the fish adapt.

[x2h]

Thank you, x2h. I can only say .... WOW :shocked: What a terrific planted tank! And congratulations for the amazingly fast spawning. It shows what a great job you are doing. Congrats.:thumbsup:

I wish I could invest more resources and time to start a nice planted tank like yours, but I am trying to go simple and low tech. I travel a lot and thus maintainance is an issue. But thank you for sharing your setup.

hey i understand your thoughts as someone who is not familiar with planted tanks. too many unknowns. turns out planted tank are easier than keeping discus. regarding my tank, i designed it for low tech/low maintenance purposes. the plants are purifying the water for you, so that you can sit back and enjoy it. the phosphate/nitrate level was low before i added the pair of discus, and after i feed the discus like crazy for several days, i measure the phosphate/nitrate level again, and they didn't change. the secret here, are a big mass of easy growing plants, and good water circulation. and use the pots to lock the substrate/fertilizer in. that's it.

[spiri]

hey i used to have exactly the same request as you do, and since i have experience with planted tank, i designed by myself the system in the link below:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/tank-journals-photo-album/140430-ok-i-took-plunge-75-g.html

I used soil, root tab, and miracle-gro fertilizer in the pots, and yet the water column now has 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 5 ppm nitrate, 0.15 ppm phosphate. very little algae. that's because the fertilizer are all locked in by the pots and sand (I now use seran wrap instead of cotton in the pot bottom to seal it). any ammonia produced by the fish are sucked up by the big plant mass I think. and the plants are thriving because they get fertilizer from both the roots and the leaves, but the algae are starving. this seems to be a positive cycle for me.


Really impressing what you designed there. I started to design my own tank now but I can't seem to get finished on perfectly planting the plant gift (http://www.serenataplants.com/petals/Plant_gifts_.htm) I received from my mother. It simple does not fit into it because I think it will somehow ruin the complete system - adding a bit too much of nitrates and phosphates to it. Can I reduce this denomination while still using the plant?