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Sean Buehrle
08-13-2011, 12:53 PM
Ok I am currently in a discussion with a few guys that use a tds meter to tell them when to do a waterchange.
I have read some stuff by Randy Holmes Farley and consider him to be a smart guy when it comes to water.
I've always been under the impression that a tds meter relies on the calcium and magnesium ions to get it's readings, and temperature can affect it too. That's unimportant in this discussion anyways.What I'm wondering is, is it possible to rely on a tds meter to give a reading on dissolved organics, fish waste and other stuff not present in clean tap water?
On a side note, one of the guys who is telling me this actually has a website,I think he has in the past tried to raise and sell discus. He has had limited success from what others have told me. I've never seen any of his fish so I can't make a judgement . But if this is how he keeps his water for discus, I'm sure he has had bad luck.

I'm going to do some reading before I drop a bomb on them, just so I know what I'm talking about and would like to hear your comments on this type of waterchange practice.

I even put a link up for these guys to read some info Randy Farley has written about, it was dismissed.

This seems like one of the dumbest beliefs I've ever run across in fishkeeping. Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt it.


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laborelch
08-13-2011, 03:08 PM
I agree with you.
My 5 cents if worth anything: why spend time and money to invest into a TDS meter, calibration liquids, calibration procedure and monitoring if you could just do a simple water change instead?
I am a biochemist by training and do have a TDS meter, but only use it to see the TDS in my R/O system vs. tap and check the TDS/pH in my breeders.
TDS measures all dissolved solids (organic or inorganic), so theoretically you might be able to figure out a formula for the water change, but you'll have to take food, fish waste, natural usage of salts by fish, pH and other things into account. I don't think it is that simple. On top of that, if you have a planted tank and use fertilizers imho a weekly water change with re-dosing will take care of fish waste/nutrient imbalance and fresh water at once. :-)
TDS meters are great for knowing what goes into your tank (clean water)....

frykiller
08-14-2011, 12:30 AM
So what you are saying is that a TDS meter will read ALL organic and inorganic in the water ?
It may not be the best way to judge how dirty water is but it will read the added fish waist etc. that is present in the water ?
So if you had new pure R/O water with a reading of say 0(zero) TDS and added fish, and a week later took a reading of say
50 TDS . Then you could say the water was dirtier then the reading of zero correct?
Again not the best way but it is an indicator of Total dissolved solids correct ?
" This seems like one of the dumbest beliefs I've ever run across in fishkeeping. " Sounds quit judge mental to me?
Unless the guy states "it is the only way" or "the best way" . I feel he may just be stating an opinion .
Passing on info for you to choose to use or ignore .
I think passing judgment and spreading innuendos about some ones ability or successes or the lack there of , when you state your self you do not know ,
is a very petty and small thing to do .
That is unless you have first hand knowledge , then I stand corrected.

I keep fish , I am not a professional.
I do how ever like to hear of different ideas no mater if I agree with them or not.

Sean Buehrle
08-14-2011, 08:05 AM
So what you are saying is that a TDS meter will read ALL organic and inorganic in the water ?
It may not be the best way to judge how dirty water is but it will read the added fish waist etc. that is present in the water ?
So if you had new pure R/O water with a reading of say 0(zero) TDS and added fish, and a week later took a reading of say
50 TDS . Then you could say the water was dirtier then the reading of zero correct?
Again not the best way but it is an indicator of Total dissolved solids correct ?
" This seems like one of the dumbest beliefs I've ever run across in fishkeeping. " Sounds quit judge mental to me?
Unless the guy states "it is the only way" or "the best way" . I feel he may just be stating an opinion .
Passing on info for you to choose to use or ignore .
I think passing judgment and spreading innuendos about some ones ability or successes or the lack there of , when you state your self you do not know ,
is a very petty and small thing to do .
That is unless you have first hand knowledge , then I stand corrected.

I keep fish , I am not a professional.
I do how ever like to hear of different ideas no mater if I agree with them or not.you must have missed the first 4 words in laborelch's post.

you sound upset at my use of the word stupid. you sound as confused and uneducated as I do about this topic.

Like the guys I'm referring to, (you being one of them)maybe you should read up on how a tds meter works, what they detect and what they don't. I'm doing the same thing, and maybe I'll know what I'm talking about.
I'm trying to figure out if I can throw all my test kits away and rely on a tds meter to tell when to do a water change, something tells me that my nitrate test kit is correct and I'm doing this right, I've been wrong before so who knows.

Google( Randy Holmes Farley tds meter). In the paragraph titled, (what does a tds meter actually detect).

It doesn't say whether it will accurately detect nitrate, I'm still looking for that info, reason being, and I'm gonna use that word again

Unless I'm stupid, the reason I've been doing waterchanges all these years is to keep nitrates under a acceptable level. I started doing that when someone here told me I was keeping my fish in what was basically a toilet .

Randy farley does say, they do not detect MANY organic compounds. They do NOT detect any neutral uncharged compounds, they do not detect ammonia.
Here's a couple questions for you

Is nitrate one of them? And how do you know how much nitrate you are measuring if it can????

With those two questions I just asked you, it brings up serious doubts, or in a more direct way of saying it, it doesn't tell you anything, zilch, zero. Nothing.
For the time being I'll stick to my assumption that relying on a tds meter to tell when to do a waterchange is a stupid, let me downgrade that to an uneducated idea, with no accuracy at all.

The guy did say he threw away his test kits, I believe he said they are useless and time consuming. He must have some info that I haven't found yet, I'm still looking.

After re reading my post, it sounds as though I'm angry now, I'm not. I just know when I'm being fed total BS, so take this post with a grain of salt, no disrespect intended:)

Ps
let me be the first person here to welcome you. I'm glad you took my advice and decided to join the website, you'll learn alot. I learn something new every day.






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frykiller
08-14-2011, 09:40 AM
I'm trying to figure out if I can throw all my test kits away and rely on a TDS meter to tell when to do a water change,
I my self never rely on one indicator. I still use the old try and true method.
I do weekly if not daily water changes .
But to dismiss an idea or slam some one for having a different method then yours is just as stupid as tossing out your test kits .
I do not believe the Discus breeders over seas test there water as we do. They simply rely on the fact that massive water changes will keep the
tank clean.


Is nitrate one of them? And how do you know how much nitrate you are measuring if it can????
My question to you is..
If you use a Nitrate test kit . And the test is low to zero and there is no ammonia .
If a TDS test showed water that had a higher TDS count then say a week ago ? Would you do a water change or just rely
only on your Nitrite/Nitrate/Ammonia test ?
Me ? I feel a rising TDS is ALSO an indicator that should be used. Not the only one but one of many.
I use Time. ( how long has it been since I last changed water )
Nitrite/Nitrate/Ammonia test ( Any indicator would trigger a water change )
TDS ( as the number go's up , I decide if a Large water change is needed to bring the number back down )
PH ( if the PH starts to stay above the desired number a water change is in order )


in a more direct way of saying it, it doesn't tell you anything, zilch, zero. Nothing.
That is a stupid statement !
There is no way a logical person can say
it doesn't tell you anything, zilch, zero. Nothing.
It may not show YOU what you need to know or are interested in but who's to say someone else is not gaining info that may or may not be of help
to them . To dismiss it because it dose not fit into your/someone else s fish keeping system is very small minded .

Who is this person you talk about ?
I to would like to impress on him/her that a TDS meter is in no way the only test one should use.
A smart fish keeper relies on ALL available knowledge. The more we know the better we are able to maintain and keep fish in a safe and healthy
manner. It is our responsibility to make sure we are doing ALL we can to there homes clean .

The guy did say he threw away his test kits, I believe he said they are useless and time consuming.
If he/she did truly say that , then I agree it is not only a stupid thing to do but a very bad thing to recommend.
Again I would like the opportunity to question this statement.

Keith Perkins
08-14-2011, 09:54 AM
My two cents worth, I have an ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH test kit, and a TDS meter. The test kit maybe comes out of the drawer twice a year, and the TDS meter is pretty much exclusively used for testing new water and that doesn't happen real often. The TDS meter is also a digital thermometer, so TDS gets looked at kind of as a by product of looking at storage barrel temps. I'm doing 95% WCs every 2nd or 3rd day to give my fish really clean water all the time, not worrying about when I HAVE to do a WC, and my fish IMO are better off for it. Several years of this now and no sick fish, no meds, no problems at all (except for that one #@*# jumper), and have had several batches of fry over the last year or so. So much as one of you already pointed out some of the over seas breeders do, change a lot of water and don't worry about it.

jimg
08-14-2011, 10:34 AM
I use ec to test while I'm doing wc,s for the reason that I mix ro with tap and that's how I keep it the same. I think the thing about using tds as a gauge is based more on ozone use. the ec goes up in my tanks daily but I would not rely on that as a gauge. too many thing effect tds safe and prime we use are an example, food, fish etc.
I also keep an eye on as far as temp and ec every time i change water, one time I had a heater in a storage barrel go bad and if I weren't checking I would have had problems. Also anyone using municipal water should always be checking their water.
As far as nitrates I think that is a much better gauge for wc's than anything. I only check the other parameters when a tank is new or changes have been made.

Sean Buehrle
08-14-2011, 11:35 AM
I my self never rely on one indicator. I still use the old try and true method.
I do weekly if not daily water changes .
But to dismiss an idea or slam some one for having a different method then yours is just as stupid as tossing out your test kits .
I do not believe the Discus breeders over seas test there water as we do. They simply rely on the fact that massive water changes will keep the
tank clean. #1a Im pretty sure all discus breeders rely on massive waterchanges


My question to you is..
If you use a Nitrate test kit . And the test is low to zero and there is no ammonia .


#1b I would say I just did a waterchange and my biological filter is working correctly.


If a TDS test showed water that had a higher TDS count then say a week ago ? Would you do a water change or just rely
only on your Nitrite/Nitrate/Ammonia test ?

#2This is a hypothetical question that makes absolutley no sense at all. if there is no ammonia and no nitrate, then I would say there are no fish in the tank and im adding no food to create ammonia. If in some bizzaro world where this could happen and it did, then the answer is no, I would not use a tds meter to tell me when to do a water change, why would I? theres no ammonia or nitrates.



Me ? I feel a rising TDS is ALSO an indicator that should be used. Not the only one but one of many.
I use Time. ( how long has it been since I last changed water )

#3If you are asking yourself when was the last time I changed my water, youve got big problems, Im not even going to comment any further on that.
Nitrite/Nitrate/Ammonia test ( Any indicator would trigger a water change )

#4If you biological filter is working, you should only be getting a nitrate reading, unless your doing 100% waterchanges and feeding lightly.


TDS ( as the number go's up , I decide if a Large water change is needed to bring the number back down )
PH ( if the PH starts to stay above the desired number a water change is in order )

#5If your PH is fluctuating, you have massive problems goin on, whens the last time you changes your water?

I suggest you buy a nitrate test kit and do daily water changes


That is a stupid statement !
There is no way a logical person can say
It may not show YOU what you need to know or are interested in but who's to say someone else is not gaining info that may or may not be of help
to them . To dismiss it because it dose not fit into your/someone else s fish keeping system is very small minded .

#6Hey pal, just trying to help,makes no difference to me. Ive never been accused of being a genius. its not that it doesnt fit into a system, it just doesnt make any sense, because you are using an instrument to measure a compound that it cannot measure.
its like trying to use a telescope to see an atom.

Who is this person you talk about ?

#7you
I to would like to impress on him/her that a TDS meter is in no way the only test one should use.

#8Look in the mirror and start talking.

A smart fish keeper relies on ALL available knowledge. The more we know the better we are able to maintain and keep fish in a safe and healthy
manner. It is our responsibility to make sure we are doing ALL we can to there homes clean .

#9 Ok sounds great, im glad we agree on something, I suggest you throw your tds meter in the garbage and do a waterchange.

If he/she did truly say that , then I agree it is not only a stupid thing to do but a very bad thing to recommend.
Again I would like the opportunity to question this statement.

same answer as #7and#8 Have a nice day:)