SD forum/members' poor reputation ...???? What can we do about it ?

[discuspaul]

I hesitate to post this, but it's a very serious subject for me, and I'd like to get it out in the open. Before I start, remember I'm just the messenger, and one doesn't shoot the messenger !

I've belonged to SD and 4 other forums for up to 2 years now, and do frequent, as well as actively participate in, all of them on pretty much a daily basis.

Over the 2 years, without exaggeration, I have read numerous, several dozens at least, of quite negative comments about SD and it's members. I will mention that in one case alone, aquariacentral.com for example, which has over 100,000 members, and there are over 100 members viewing each new thread all the time on a regular daily basis - I have read SD getting dissed many times (so you can imagine how many people read the bad news about us - are you getting the picture ?)

This forum and many of it's members (not all - there are in fact a number of members who have been singled out and being very helpful, particularly to newbies to discus-keeping) have been called: - "crusty" - "negative" - "condescending" - "overly critical" - "made us look like fools"- "nay-sayers" - "dumped all over us" - "not at all helpful" - "made fun of me" etc. etc. - the list goes on.

This usually occurs when someone brings up a question on discus (and there are many discus-keepers, or wanna-be's, on these other forums - believe me). Someone else will suggest going to the sd forum for help, and then someone else will pipe in to say: " I tried that - hell of a lot of good it did me - they pee'd all over me" - or words to that effect.
Making a long story shorter, I for one have defended this forum & it's members many times, as have a number of others that I know - April Ross for one - an SD sponsor, and member of our local forum, bcaquaria.com, as I am, and which forum also has quite a number of discus-keepers. There are other folks besides myself who have defended SD on e.g. plantedtank.net, also a very popular forum with many interested discus-keepers.

My point is, folks, what can we do about this - to turn this negative press around ???
Not tooting my own horn, but I very frankly do my best to be careful in how I respond to questions about discus (to newbies in particular), on any forum, and often offer to help them out in any way I can - by suggesting they can feel free to PM me at any time if I can be of any assistance- to the point that I feel I'm risking being thought of as a "grandstander" of some kind.

Would very much like to hear others' comments & suggestions about this serious matter, IMHO.
Paul

[jarret8x]

I think one thing is that people come here with their mind set on one way to do something. And when people tell them to do 50% daily water changes for instance they may take offense to people saying they need to care for their fish better. I for one like this forum and the people on it. I think they give great advice and know alot so I'm willing to listen. I think when people come in not wanting to listen to what others have to say they will take offense them bash the forum on other forums.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

[hedut]

I think one thing is that people come here with their mind set on one way to do something. And when people tell them to do 50% daily water changes for instance they may take offense to people saying they need to care for their fish better. I for one like this forum and the people on it. I think they give great advice and know alot so I'm willing to listen. I think when people come in not wanting to listen to what others have to say they will take offense them bash the forum on other forums.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

+1

it is true we here to help but, some newbie some times think more better than us and some times I think they should learn the hard way. I loss more than 20+ fish when I start and before knowing SD and until now doesn't make me as discus expert, I'm still learning;). point is not all people willing to listen :), one man junk other man treasure :)

[Discus-n00b]

I also think its that way of thinking as well. I've been around since the better part of 2003 and let me tell you, this board is NICE compared to what it used to be, and even then it was just more blunt and to the point....not so much mean. Its like being told that rocking chair passed down in your family over the years isn't worth anything, some people can't take that kind of truth about their stuff. Some people take criticism better then others. I started all the wrong ways with discus, and here I am doing it right and enjoying every minute of this community for 8 years now.

I take all other non specific boards with a grain of salt. This is where people are 100% discus. Other places people might have a discus or two bought from the LFS, but this is where I want my advice coming from.....harsh or not. The discus community is close, always has been. Everyone seems to know everyone. So those new to the community may not feel right at home at first, pair that with critisim of their fish or way of keeping them, and they may not want to stick around to learn.

[yim11]

As stated above, I think the issue is limited to a small group of people that didn't respond well to suggestions on care or quality. I don't think the forum reputation is as bad as the OP presents it to be. You can't please all the people all the time.

[seanyuki]

hey Paul.....you are doing a good job here and other forums and helping people understanding discus....perhaps we can have coffee next week and talk about it.

[ericatdallas]

Paul, I do see a lot of discus questions there. I don't usually say anything on those, but I do see you respond to a lot of them with a link to this site and your sticky :) I think the issue, as hinted above, is that a lot of people come on and ask questiosn before reading the FAQs.

I went to another board asking for help with other fish. I mentioned I had discus and a lot of people there gave me advice about discus (which isn't what I asked about). What's worse, most of the advice that was given fell in the voodoo, myth, or outdated advice category. I bring this example up as an illustration of the perspective of the other hobbyists. Many just plain refuse to accept best practices. Worse, IMO, is that there are many people who refuse to accept that something is considered poor practice. It's like a mentality of, "Oh, I've been raising goldfish like this for years, the Discus people just don't know what they're doing."

IMO, general aquarium forums are great to talk about the hobby in general, equipment, water chemistry, trends, etc but are hit-or-miss for species specific topics. In the short time I've been here, I've seen what everyone else has previously mentioned, and that's people come here with preconceived notions and feel upset when that advice is countered by the advice they get from the people that are typically very knowledgeable about other types of fish in different forums.

I do remember a very similar topic/thread was brought up about this a while back. Not with this specific example, but it was a new member messenging a long-time SD member about how they felt 'dumped' on, or something to that effect.

I do sometimes think we do collectively mock newbies. I don't think we're aware that we're doing it, but we'll say, after 10-20 messages of trying to talk them out of it, someone will say, "Yeah, well, good luck with that. Let us know if you figure out a better way of doing it, but if not, more than likely, feel free to post on the disease section." Something like that. I do see more overt insults, but those are rare (at least, I think they are).

So on the one hand, I'm sympathetic to the fact they feel like we're bashing them. On the other, if you're going to come here with a decision and nothing we say will alter it, then why bother asking at all?

IMO, I also think that general forums are more geared towards the beginner. If you're a beginner (in the aquarium hobby) you might interpret advice as condescending because people here have more experience and talk a certain way.

"crusty" - What does this mean? Set in our ways? Probably true...
"negative" - disagree with the way they want to do something? Probably true in a way...
"condescending" - I can see that at times...
"overly critical" - overly sensitive?
"made us look like fools"- I guess I'll need an example of this...
"nay-sayers" - same as negative...
"dumped all over us" - probably true, but also probably taken the wrong way.
"not at all helpful" - in that, we don't want you to put 20 discus in a 30G tank and there's no way we're going to tell you the best way of doing that... probably true :)
"made fun of me" - a combination of the above, need an example, and I've seen this at times, but I think it's both rare and not unique to this forum.

[Keith Perkins]

Thanks for the thread Paul. Hopefully people will take it as food for thought whether they agree with it or not. Knowing you a tad from our time together here on SD I'm confident your post is accurate as to what you've seen and encountered in other forums. Maybe, just maybe, occasionally something will get worded better now than it would have been without this thread.

[discuspaul]

Keith, if that's the best we get out of this, then it's surely good enough !
You know I love this forum, and the vast majority of it's members, but I can't help but feel that some of us, at times perhaps, take a little bit too much of a superior approach (and I'm including myself in this) in dealing with newbies/members of other forums, etc. when responding to their sincere, conscientious requests for info or help regarding discus.
I know that I, as well as many of you out there, can tell the difference between a "malcontent's" bashing of SD on their home forums, and an objectively disappointed feeling over the manner in which one was treated here on SD. Point I'm trying to make, is that I'm reading too many of the latter type of reactions out there.

[discuspaul]

hey Paul.....you are doing a good job here and other forums and helping people understanding discus....perhaps we can have coffee next week and talk about it.

Thanks, Francis.
And yes, let's get together for coffee sometime soon. Perhaps you'll attend Shelley's planned discus group get-together later next month, and we can renew acquaintance at that time.

[seanyuki]

Hi Paul......since i have to work on Sundays and only available after 6 pm........perhaps I can meet Shelley and the gang later that evening for supper.....keep in touch.



Thanks, Francis.
And yes, let's get together for coffee sometime soon. Perhaps you'll attend Shelley's planned discus group get-together later next month, and we can renew acquaintance at that time.

[bonsai dave]

Good post Paul. keep up the good work. I can't wait to meet up fellow discus keepers in BC soon..

[April]

I think when newbies come on and show their first fish we tend to look down our noses at the quality as alot of us have become perfectionists and try to achieve the ultimate discus I'm shape and health. I think we tend to forget how we all started
discus snobs
Perhaps?
I'm guilty also as I see fish pics
Posted on local forums and don't dare comment especially as I sell them.
You know the saying if you can't
Say serving nice don't say anything st all.
But them that's not educating. Some people want criticism some don't and resent having their fish criticized.
It's
Been an issue all
Along. That's why the university was started so if people want their fish judged they go there. Not to be discussed in pjotogallery or beginner section unless asked.

[roclement]

I seldom go to other forums to talk discus, had an argument with someone on monsterfish because he was giving newbs wrong info on discus and arguing with a member of this forum about his point of view, he even tried to compare his horrible domestics with our members beautiful wilds saying how much more colorful his were!
The reality is that people overall don't want to know how to keep discus, they are happy with sub par fish, in poorly maintained tanks, then they come here to show us discus keepers how its done and get blasted, so they hate us...people like tat don't want help, they want their egos stroked!
Look at the amount of sub par fish submitted for rating in the University, people really see fish with an owners eye, not with proper scrutiny and when you get honesty it hurts...

Rodrigo

[Ryan]

I see this a lot on Monster Fish Keepers (which is part of Aquaria Central) as well. I'm not really bothered by it. The beauty of the internet is that you find a community that works for you. There are multiple discus boards and multiple general aquaria boards. Some will strive to be the best discus hobbyist they can be while others just want a couple colorful fish to go in a community tank. The latter probably won't want to invest the time and effort that we often suggest here on this forum. Some people are not in the discus hobby to breed fish or achieve perfection.

Aquaria Central may have a ton of members, but it's also a board that covers the entire aquarium hobby. Considering this site focuses on one fish, I'd say 20,000+ members and 740,000+ posts aren't too shabby. We'll keep doing our thing and other sites will keep doing theirs.

[roclement]

Yep! A lot of people don't get a forum like Simply...I used this comparsion recently with Bob when we were talking about golf clubs...buying your clubs at Modells versus having them custom fitted by a professional, is like buying discus from a LFS versus a sponsor here, you don't know any better untill you compare the two. People don't get our hobby like we do.

Rodrigo

[LizStreithorst]

I'm likelly one who they complain about. I'm more than happy to invest my time in someone wanting to learn. I don't like wasting my time on those who know it all already, or refuse to accept good advice from people who have been doing Discus for years.

[Keith Perkins]

"The mission of SimplyDiscus has remained the same since it opened. The purpose of the website is to educate, inform, and connect discus hobbyists worldwide in an effort to promote the hobby and strive for a better understanding of our fish. From newcomers to experienced breeders and long-time devotees, it is the goal of SimplyDiscus to provide a fun, family-oriented environment where discus lovers can share ideas, learn new tricks, ask questions, and enjoy their hobby. Ultimately, SimplyDiscus hopes to provide you with the knowledge and understanding to raise happy, healthy discus."

The above is just a reminder. I think the essence of Paul's post is that SD could be more respected than it is, and it seems to me that would only go to improve the odds of being able to educate and inform.

[tomcat33x]

As someone new to Simply and new to forums in general, I find Simply to be a great source of information. I have some prior experience with discus and having made huge mistakes along the way, I discovered this forum. Since joining, I have done a ton of reading on a vaiety of subjects. I have read some very constructive criticism and seen some less than receptive replys. I think some people just can't handle constuctive criticism even though thats what they came here for. I'm by no means an expert, that's why I come here. Please forgive my opinion in advance, I think the more expert breeder types on here can be a little blunt. Maybe its fatigue from answering the same questions over and over again. I agree with thier advice, but others may have a different goal in mind. Some folks just want some colorful fish to look at and discus are definately colorful. They don't want to do the 90% WC's every hour on the hour, day and night, for the rest of thier lives. Others are more hardcore, want to breed them and are willing to do 110% WC's every 15 minutes, 24/7! (I'm sarcastically overexaggerating). In all, I think people need to understand that the replys on here are just opinions and should be taken as such. As for the other forums, I just ignore them, but, if you are the proactive type, by all means engage the negative folks. Maybe if you are respectful and the other person is seen as the nasty one, you can convert good folks to SD. Being kind and polite to a mean person eventually drives them insane. This is my opinion, take it for what it is and thank you.....

[joanstone]

I am a member of numerous fish clubs/forums and frequent this site on a daily basis. I have kept fish for more than forty years (yikes). This site is a wealth of information and on the whole members are extremely
helpful and are genuinely on board with the mission statement as quoted above. Even though I frequent this forum, I rarely post and am hesitant to do so now. Based on the replies so far, I think that some members do understand where this negative perception is coming from and I applaud them for recognizing that. Some perhaps are missing it. I think that the thread like the current one concerning a member wanting culls is an
example of why some people may be turned off. I don't think that people who are asking for help and don't like what they hear is really the issue, I think it's more of a tone (if that can really be expressed online) and
sometimes unnecessary comments that aren't constructive and possibly completely off topic that lie at the heart of it. I think another issue might be a difference in goals. I think the prevalent goal for the core group of
members here is to attain and keep very high quality discus often for breeding. That is (in my opinion) an excellent goal. It is, however not every discus keepers goal. Many are quite happy with sub-perfect discus and
have no intention of breeding them. Both are legitimate goals. You could compare it to keeping purebred dogs. There are show dogs who are bred for the betterment of the breed and there are some who turn out to be
pet quality, perfectly suitable pets that aren't for breeding. I use this illustration not in reference to the "cull thread" but to point out a possible issue that the feeling that is projected here is sometimes that unless you're in this hobby for the former goal then your goal isn't "as good". (I get that by buying sub-perfect discus people may be perpetuating poor breeding practices, but that's another issue.) My point is that on occasion
discussions here come off as a bit superior sounding and sometimes degenerate rather quickly. Those are the threads that cause the negative perceptions and are counterproductive. When the site has threads that have to be locked due to this degeneration as one recently did, it doesn't do the perception of the club any good. I think CozyKeith has summed it up perfectly. If your post isn't falling in line with the above, then let it go.

[ZX10R]

I am sure no one pays attention but haven't you ever noticed sometimes people just pop up out of the wood work and say "I have been on here for awhile but have never posted much in fear of getting my head bit off". I think this site is great and when I fist came here like most people I had sick fish. I called Mike Beals and Kraig Koontz asking for help and they both took time to chat with me and turned me to this site. Then when I arived Al and Eddie helped me out a great deal not only with my fish but help me from freaking out over a entire tank of sick fish. Since then I have stayed aboard logging on almost every day to just read what is going on. I think most threads are very helpfull but I have also seen those threads were the newbie will ask a question not knowing then argue about the answers he gets. Then again I see in my opinion about a handful of people on here that are very aggresive I guess you can call it and attack anyone who come along asking what they call a stupid question. I agree with the statements above not everyone well most everyone is not looking for that show quality/breeding discus thing. I am not I just want healthy fish no matter what size or shape they are I don't have the money or the time to keep and breed show quality fish. I remember Eddie making a comment once which I agree with he said I quote "The average hobbiest will only grow there fish to 4.5"-5.5" it is the ones that are truly dedicated to feedings and WC that will have there fish reach the 6+ mark". I am sure the ones who have been here from the start get sick and tired of answering the same question over and over. But keep in mind people like me and yourself were once new and needed someone to take the time to help out just like Kraig, Mike, Al, and Eddie did for me. If I would of came on here being new and had someone jump all over me like I have seen happen numerous times then I would also stay off here and trash talk this site. I was lucky I came across some super nice people first before I ran into the few aggresive ones.

[Crockett]

I can say that before I joined this forum I didn’t know too much about Discus but found SD to be just what I was looking for and needed. I think that there is a wealth of great information and I have gotten some great advice from members in the past. I am very happy I came across this forum because I needed the bar to be raised in terms of the knowledge I had about Discus before joining. In terms of negative comments coming from seasoned members, I can’t say that I experienced that at all when I came aboard, (well maybe once or twice…lol) but like I said, I was looking for the bar to be raised so I could learn and that I have. I also think more newbies, well everyone for that matter, should keep in mind that it’s just fish we are discussing (beautiful fish, but still just fish). I am a family man first, and my Wife and young Children are my main focus. However, I do love keeping discus, but not so where I would ever get bent out of shape over negative Discus comments, but that’s just me. This forum is excellent, anyone keeping Discus couldn’t ask for more than is presently found here. It’s all about learning, sharing and getting better and that’s what I am getting from this forum which is just what I needed.

Crockett

[Ryan]

"The mission of SimplyDiscus has remained the same since it opened. The purpose of the website is to educate, inform, and connect discus hobbyists worldwide in an effort to promote the hobby and strive for a better understanding of our fish. From newcomers to experienced breeders and long-time devotees, it is the goal of SimplyDiscus to provide a fun, family-oriented environment where discus lovers can share ideas, learn new tricks, ask questions, and enjoy their hobby. Ultimately, SimplyDiscus hopes to provide you with the knowledge and understanding to raise happy, healthy discus."

The above is just a reminder. I think the essence of Paul's post is that SD could be more respected than it is, and it seems to me that would only go to improve the odds of being able to educate and inform.

Respected by who? Even before there was a SimplyDiscus, there was an attitude among other cichlid keepers and general aquaria folks that discus keepers were snobs. They're an expensive fish that require a more specialized care than run-of-the-mill LFS fish, so of course you're going to have niche discussion forums and clubs related to them, and some people feel that's too exclusionist or holier-than-thou. There isn't really much you can do to change their minds -- when you read about water changes, bare bottom tanks, glass wipe-downs, etc., you're going to have people that automatically think it's crazy and/or unnecessary. No matter how nicely you try and explain discus husbandry to people, there will always be a divide between those who are willing to put in the time and effort, and those who are dismissive and write off discus keepers as crazy/weird/snobbish.

IMO, the site should be judged based on the information it provides. If it weren't successful, I don't think we would have made it ten years. I would say that a large majority of the people here are friendly and informative. You will always have people in every forum who are matter-of-fact and just answer the questions. People will sometimes interpret that "tone" (if there is such a thing in text online) as cold or rude. As always, flaming is not allowed, and if it's a problem, people are free to PM a mod/admin or use the Report Post feature so that it can be reviewed.

I also find it interesting that places like MFK complain about the tone here, when I regularly see people get flamed for missteps there (one of my favorite threads is always "I have an oscar in a 55 gallon tank" -- stand back and watch the sparks fly).

[discuspaul]

Keith's last paragraph in his most recent post above has nailed what my objective was in starting this thread.
(reluctantly, I might add, but feeling it was needed for awareness' sake, if nothing else).

And ZX10R's secong last sentence echoes my feelings and illustrates the kind of occurence and result that I'm seeing raised on other forms.

I would not have posted this if most of the negatives I have read about sd were from those types who many here have referred to, i.e. persons who argue and are aggressive with good, sound sd advice, or who only like and take in what they want to hear, or don't listen to and take advice properly, and so on.

On the contrary, it appears to me that more than half of those negative postings seem to come from genuinely interested and committed aquarists wanting seriously to get into discus-keeping, but fail to get the kind of open and ready help they are looking for, in coming into our forum initially, usually by way of a referral.
They seem to get "tuned out and turned off", and give up on wanting to stay with us as a good, continuing and beneficial participating member over the long term.
That's what is concerning me.

[yim11]

I would not have posted this if most of the negatives I have read about sd were from those types who many here have referred to, i.e. persons who argue and are aggressive with good, sound sd advice, or who only like and take in what they want to hear, or don't listen to and take advice properly, and so on.

On the contrary, it appears to me that more than half of those negative postings seem to come from genuinely interested and committed aquarists wanting seriously to get into discus-keeping, but fail to get the kind of open and ready help they are looking for, in coming into our forum initially, usually by way of a referral.
They seem to get "tuned out and turned off", and give up on wanting to stay with us as a good, continuing and beneficial participating member over the long term.
That's what is concerning me.

Would it be possible to get links to these posts on other forums so we might be able to match them to their ID here and see exactly what happened in specific cases?

[LizStreithorst]

Thanks for the excellent reply, Ryan. We are NOT snobs as some seem to think. We are more than happy to offer guidance. Our fish simply require more dedication than most fish.

I'm kind, but I also have an agressive streak. I want to help people. But when they're hard headed or stupid I won't be bothered with them. They can do as they choose and their fish can live or die.

Sorry, not what y'all wanted to hear. Our forum is fine as it is. We are good. If others don't like it, it's their loss.

[roclement]

It would be a lot easier to help people if they did two things...one would be to use the search function and do some research before asking questions...the second would be to actually hear the advice given instead of waiting for someone to magically agree with them..."sure, don't change water, keep it a 74 degrees, and use gravel and in no time you will lots of baby discus swiming around"!

I find that people that criticize this forum in other forums are either people who lost their discus or they are culls, or they are very active in THAT forum and would like nothing more than someone to stay there instead of coming here and meeting all of us nice people! :)

Rodrigo

[discuspaul]

Would it be possible to get links to these posts on other forums so we might be able to match them to their ID here and see exactly what happened in specific cases?

I haven't taken specific note of any of these posts in the past, and I doubt whether I could find more than a couple even if I were to now do some heavy-duty searching.
As I said before though, I've probably read about 3 dozen or so over the past 2 years. On average, about one or two a month over the 5 forums I belong to, and a couple of others that I visit as a guest, which I do on almost a daily basis ( I generally read 100 or more posts per day) - so they're not that frequent. Nonetheless, there's been about 20 or so to date that appear to have come from serious, conscientious hobbyists, and that type seems to be growing. Seems to me that these are members that we lost, but could have kept - and how many more of these are there out there that have remained completely silent, and that we won't ever know about.

In future, I will definitely keep note of the specific details of these posts.

[Ryan]

We will have to agree to disagree on this matter then. If Al thinks there should be some change in the site to try and accommodate those people, I will let him decide that on his own. I just think you cannot please everyone all the time, and a couple of dozen people out of several thousand isn't that big of a deal to me. There are people who've hated Simply over the years because of its censorship, because of its policies on sponsors and selling fish, because of a bunch of different reasons. Inevitably you will have members who do not find this forum to be a good fit for them. We've seen this before over the years. Remember when mostly everyone on DAAH hated us and wanted to see us fail?

Maybe I am taking this too personally, but I feel like this is saying that somehow Simply isn't as good as it should be, and that makes me question why I've put in so many hundreds of hours of my personal time here since 2002.

[LizStreithorst]

This is your thread. You don't have links to the specific converstaions? Post links! Do a simple search! I will respond to these peple on their own forums.

Like Ryan, I take this personally.

We do well here. We do good. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a fight.

[DiscusBR]

Hi everyone,

I would like to thank Paul for raising the issue. I am a beginner, returning to discus-keeping after 15-year interruption. I started reading SD in August 2010 and started my first tank in March this year. I am a big fan of the forum. However, I do see the tendency of being overly negative and impatient with some postings in the forum. I agree, for example, with April's observation that when newbies come on and show their first fish or tank people at SD tend to look down at their quality. It is not that we should not be critical. But when someone presents their fish we should be able to say more than "sorry, but your fish are stunted". And it is not only that. I have dozens of threads here and I always got excellent feedback, but I had one terrible experience (I will not give specifics and give names). In that case, my position was interpreted as ignoring advice. However, I felt that some people did not understand the specific dilemma I was trying to present. Advice was given without much effort to understand where my doubts were coming from. And I also felt that the way that the criticism was expressed was dismissive and impolite.

So I understand Paul's call not as a call to change this terrific site or how we go around giving advice. It is a call to be more careful with how we talk to those who come here asking for advice.

My two cents.

[roclement]

This is your thread. You don't have links to the specific converstaions? Post links! Do a simple search! I will respond to these peple on their own forums.

Like Ryan, I take this personally.

We do well here. We do good. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a fight.

yep!

[cjr8420]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?90411-How-often-and-how-much-water-to-change-on-a-90-gallon-planted-tank
here is ex.of newbies having a good discussion on success with discus with lack of water changes in planted tank not common but possible then one guy comes in and instead of giving advice starts being a dick for no reason.turk has a couple of post i thought were very professional how it should be handled. but the other guy is the reason ppl wont stay on fourm and go elsewhere and bash it i dont know if this person did go but i wouldnt blame them.

[Ryan]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?90411-How-often-and-how-much-water-to-change-on-a-90-gallon-planted-tank
here is ex.of newbies having a good discussion on success with discus with lack of water changes in planted tank not common but possible then one guy comes in and instead of giving advice starts being a dick for no reason.turk has a couple of post i thought were very professional how it should be handled. but the other guy is the reason ppl wont stay on fourm and go elsewhere and bash it i dont know if this person did go but i wouldnt blame them.

So the thread was pruned of the personal attacks that were being hurled back and forth, and then it was locked by Al. What else should be done? How do other large forums handle one person who has a negative comment? Do they ban them? I don't think so. Warnings from a mod/admin and a thread locking if things get too heated are the way I see it done on places like Monster Fish Keepers. If someone gets too many warnings, they are banned. This has been our site policy for a long time.

I guess I'm confused as to what we're supposed to do in order to address the issue. You cannot ban someone every time they have a dissenting opinion. You certainly can't ban people when they occasionally get their feathers ruffled and make a snide remark at another poster. If that were the case, no internet forum would have members. As many hits as we've taken over the years about our supposedly heavy-handed censorship here, this thread makes it sound like we need more of it, and I don't agree with that. You cannot make everyone post positive, friendly, warm messages all the time. And you cannot go around editing every thread just because people have disagreements. You can send warnings, edit out the flaming or personal attacks, and lock threads when they get too heated. That's what was done in the example you linked to.

Am I missing something here? What exactly is the solution? And if you change to make those people happy, will you in turn make other hobbyists unhappy? So then how do you keep everyone happy? In short: you don't, and you can't.

[Sean Buehrle]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?90411-How-often-and-how-much-water-to-change-on-a-90-gallon-planted-tank
here is ex.of newbies having a good discussion on success with discus with lack of water changes in planted tank not common but possible then one guy comes in and instead of giving advice starts being a dick for no reason.turk has a couple of post i thought were very professional how it should be handled. but the other guy is the reason ppl wont stay on fourm and go elsewhere and bash it i dont know if this person did go but i wouldnt blame them.

Bologna
Did you read that entire thread? I'll be you didn't.
That person was being judgmental and a snob.
She came to the conclusion that waterchanges were not needed and took a Jab at people who do large waterchanges.
She said she couldn't believe we were so unfriendly towards nature and in another post accused people on this site of trying to discourage new discus keepers from trying to keep discus, by setting standards so high.
She started it and got what she had coming.
Al pmd me and asked that I not do it again, to let his mods take care of it.
And I told him I would follow his rules.

Maybe the way I acted was inappropriate but still , I'm not the type to sit here and let someone talk smack and tell lies.
If thats what a dick is then I suppose I am one. I'll wear that badge, no problem.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ericatdallas]

So I was curious to find these threads and did a broad search for SD on Google. I did find a lot of referrals, MANY MANY of them coming from Paul and other regulars here. I also found some other interesting threads (what I thought were interesting at least). I think it happens everywhere. I don't think it's a common theme in this board, but possibly a few people are "aggressive" and a few people are "overly sensitive". For the most part though, my biased and not very scientific analysis, SD does seem to be held in fair esteem (mostly neutral when they're referenced). I also found a TON of referrals from species specific sites or discussion about things other than Discus (i.e. to DIY section or general aquarium help).

Infact, Paul is like the virtual equivalent to a walking billboard for this site. :)

Example of what we're being criticized for being done there...?

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?214961-The-California-Blackworm&
See Post #5

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?374657-Discus-tank-set-up/page4

Example of people not knowing but arguing anyway?
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/fish/145950-add-discus-2.html

Example of misconceptions
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?88766-Just-wondering-would-a-20-gallon-high-aquarim-be-enough-for-one-or-two-discus

Referrals by people I don't recognized (doesn't mean they're not regulars though or using a different name)
http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/tropical-fish-diseases/please-help-paraisites-all-over-q-78635/
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/general-aquarium-plants-discussions/80189-high-water-temp-plants.html
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?374657-Discus-tank-set-up/page1

Found one...
OKay, I found one, but I'm not sure if I want to start anything so if you want it, you might have to look for yourself. It's from someone I recognize...

[Keith Perkins]

...Maybe I am taking this too personally, but I feel like this is saying that somehow Simply isn't as good as it should be, and that makes me question why I've put in so many hundreds of hours of my personal time here since 2002.

Ryan - I think you are taking this too personally, but given your contribution to starting this forum I can certainly understand that. Paul's goal by starting this thread I'd guess was the same as your goal has always been over the years, to try to make the forum yet a little better...I know my chiming in certainly was. I guess after watching how this thread has gone today and hoping perhaps people might be a little more careful and civil on their own (which IMO is the only way it would really work, WAY too much work etc for mods) was just a pipe dream. Too bad.

[roclement]

For watever it's worth someone on that thread threw the first stone by afirming that discus keepers try to scare others away from the hobby...ignorance scares people away from the hobby.

Let's face it, we are not an aquarium hobby, we are a Discus hobby, we take things to extreme for our hobby, others take a more balanced approach since their hobby is aquarium keeping and the whole thing for them is more important than the one fish ( I know I am generalizing here so please let it be ), so the tank looks healthy and the fish look ok for them, they are happy, great! When you try to mix someone like that with someone whose hobby is the fish itself things may not very civil...what can you do?

I don't keep fish tanks, I keep fish, I keep discus and I know nothing of how to maintain a planted tank, I am by no means an aquarium expert but I am sure passionate about my discus! The same thing happens with reef tanks versus FOWLR tanks, or as mentioned, pets versus show quality dogs...this is not an aqurium forum, it's a discus forum where like minded people come for help and to meet other nuts like us!

So we have been here since 2002...very succesfully here and the community keeps growing...sure people come and go...most go...but some stay and those are the ones that become part of the family...if it wasn;t for this family, as disfunctional as it may be, without this forum there would be no place for this family to meet but...like any other family we may be tough on newcomers and skeptical about letting you in, once you are in it's for life! :)

Al, and everyone else involved here created the best meeting place for discus people around and it's his house, his rules...and I like the rules! Thanks for the great forum guys!

Rodrigo

[Discus-n00b]

I agree Rod. Great post. People are often way to nice on the general topic aquarium forums. "Oh nice tank!" "Great looking discus!" when really in reality they just don't want to hurt feelings by telling the truth. Or they say something they read in a book published 20 years ago and think they know everything there is to know about all aquarium species. That or they work at an LFS.

[H2Ochanger]

My two cents as a newcomer: this isn't a "cheerleading" site, like a few of those mentioned in the thread (I've spent some times on one of those sites because it actually has a decent crenicichla subforum). I visit here because I've found it to be the best source of good information about some demanding fish. That's what I've needed, so far. I haven't done lots of posting since most of my initial questions have been answered by searching the forum, or by Discus-n00b on our local forum.

I haven't seen behaviour that was much different than other forums. I think this thread is a good thing, if it makes us think about how our posts might sound to newcomers, but I hope it doesn't lead anyone to change the good content of the responses. That's what's really of value here.

[TURQ64]

Jeesh!..I can't believe I'm posting on this topic, but...I was not new to Discus, but new to this forum when I joined,so that makes me some kind of 'newbie'....when I first posted, I got treated like sh*t, with a few figuring I was a troll or somebody else. so what?..I'm not thin skinned, and realised right away that some were quick to defend their stance..my kind of people. Raising Discus isn't for thin skinned people anyhow...I try to be helpful..Sometimes I use too much tact, and don't exactly 'tell it like it is' to a poster..That's my version of 'nice'..Sometimes I'm blunt and opinionated, and pee a few folks off, but this sometimes if not always comes with truth...If a person pops in here timidly, and gets offended by our comments, then perhaps natural selection has occurred here as it does with the fish...I also feel a bit 'pigeon-holed' by this thread's inference, but as mentioned, I'm not thin skinned, so I guess if our shoe fits, we should wear it, not compromise the shoe itself....Gary

[retiredsailor]

* this may have been said already and i apologize if that is the case * i think part of the problem is that most people who come to this site are community-tank folks who want to add discus and don't like/realize what the answers are going to be. specifically, how detailed those answers will be towards the care of the discus. then the become overwhelmed by the very comprehensive and detailed information on this site for caring for discus. and then when the ask a question they expect a nice and polite answer, as opposed to, "check out xxxx." which is slightly impersonal. but as i've found through my own experience, normal people don't like to answer questions when the effort has been made to post they obvious questions and answers, and then therefore come out as brusque by telling them to look it up for themself. i hope that made sense. i haven't even finsihed my second cup of coffee and it is showing. (i'm a huge stickler for spelling but just don't care right now).

my two cents

ian

[Larry Bugg]

I wasn't going to post on this thread but oh well. Here are a few thoughts that have been experssed by others already.

1. Discus are expensive and worthy of special care.
2. We believe there is a right way and a wrong way based on experience.
3. We are vey passionate and that passion is expressed in out post.
4. We have indeed answered the same questions a thousand times before. (and need to continue to do so)
5. A lot of newbies ask questions but really don't want to hear the answers.
6. Because we are one fish specific it is easy to be specific with our answers vs generalities you will get on a community site.
7. We do hold discus to a high standard and aren't afraid to say so.

So what is the right way to respond? This has been a good discussion as far as I am concerned. Anytime we are made to fall back and consider how we respond to others isn't all bad. That said I don't think anything really needs to be changed here. We just need to remind ourselves that we were new once and respond accordingly. But I will ask again.............what is the right way to respond?

Example. I read a new post this morning from someone new that wants to breed discus and was asking to have 3 discus sexed. The discus were obviously too young to even venture a guess but it was very obvious they were stunted and of very low quality. This is someone that wants to learn to breed discus. Do you ignor the quality of the discus in the post? Do you point it out in a attempt to help educate them? They were looking for advice but not necessarily a critique of their fish. Is it the right thing to do to just ignor the quality issue? I don't think so but how do you go about it without hurting their feelings? Maybe you take it off line in a PM as some have suggested. I was very frustrated trying to decide how to best respond and reading this post over the weekend made me think more about it but I still can't answer the question. How should we respond? I think others who replied to that thread also danced around the issue maybe because of this thread.



8. We quite often have newbies passing out a lot of answers and that doesn't help. If I don't have personal experience to share then most of the time I will leave the answers to those that do. What I have read or heard from others may be distorted by the time it reaches me or may not completely fit the circumstances.

[atitagain]

I pretty new here and don’t think there is a better site around for gaining knowledge on discus. 25 years ago I kept discus and did well but a lot has changed. Whenever I’ve needed help someone has stepped up and guided me down the right path. I am also fairly computer literate so using the search function has been a huge help.

When I first joined I have to say that I was intimidated, most of the folks here are very knowledgeable and some have strong opinions. My wife and I don’t breed and wanted a couple display tanks. It seems like its almost frowned upon here and I cringe when I ask for help and use the questionnaire and post that I have gravel substrate. We just don’t like the look of BB tanks.

Just some thoughts:

The disease questionnaire is tough to find and when someone has a sick fish they panic. Most are looking for help from the vast knowledge base that is here. We should always post a link to the questionnaire when we ask people to fill it out.

Many needed to be guided down a path regarding quality of the water and the importance of testing.

Some do not have the monetary resources to buy a lot of gear and we should try to help them within their means. That being said if they don’t do a little homework before they buy discus we just may not be able to help. Learning before you jump into something should always be a first step.

Not everyone is good with computers, we should work within their skill level.

Some just want a nice display tank and we should always try to offer solutions based on their setup.

Take a look at post 30 in this thread. While this person probably didn’t take enough time to read or use the search function her first impression pushed her away.

http://www.angelfish.net/VBulletin/showthread.php?t=23032&page=2


Sometimes when someone is looking for help the contrasting opinions become overwhelming. You don’t know how to sift through a thread to get the help you need and walk away scratching you head even more confused. In all the time that I have spent on the site there are members that I know to key on when looking for information. Not everyone can do that and leave feeling frustrated.

I have met some great people here and several have educated me at an accelerated rate. I’m 51 years old and have learned to adjust to others personalities; some people are just too sensitive and walk away. The internet can be a lot like a mine field with the keyboard being the trigger. When a newbie comes to the site and someone gets a little off topic it turns folks off. Looking at someone’s post count before replying might help when we respond.

I hope I didn’t insult anyone. This is the best site I have found and the only site I registered on and check it multiple times a day for new posts. This place has given me so much information, and there are times when I just want to post Thank You after spending a couple hours reading but it would be way too random.

I apologize if I did insult even one person here because that is not my intention.

I can't express enough gratitude for all the help I received. You are a great group once you get to reading the posts; some people just never get that far.

[April]

I think alot of time new members feel intimidated a
So not knowing anyone and don't know how to break in. I know when I first went to one site years ago when o first started it helped me when a very nice friendly lady messages me and welcomed me. We became very close friends. I started reading her threads and then felt more a part of the forum.
I think that could be the main issue with alot of new members including the one Paul heard of recently. Have to give it time.


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=49.275061,-122.835409

[DiscusBR]

This has been a good discussion as far as I am concerned. Anytime we are made to fall back and consider how we respond to others isn't all bad. That said I don't think anything really needs to be changed here. We just need to remind ourselves that we were new once and respond accordingly.

Well said. No reason to stress here. This is a terrific site full of generous people who, for the most part, offer excellent and constructive information/criticism.


But I will ask again.............what is the right way to respond?

I don´t think there is a single right way to respond. Avoiding criticism just to avoid hurting someone´s feelings when problems are evident, as your example illustrates, is definetely not the way to go. But I hope this thread can help us figure ways that keep the conversation civil, friendly, and welcoming. I agree with April that we could welcome more the newbies (well, I still one of them). I noticed that in another discus-devoted forum when a newbie posts people respond the questions but also add a lot of "welcome" smilies. It is a simple gesture but it helps.

Marc: No need to apologize. You did not insult anyone.

So, my message is, let´s take it easy. The intention of Paul´s thread is to improve a bit the best forum available to discuss our beloved fishes.

[judy]

Bologna
Did you read that entire thread? I'll be you didn't.
That person was being judgmental and a snob.
She came to the conclusion that waterchanges were not needed and took a Jab at people who do large waterchanges.
She said she couldn't believe we were so unfriendly towards nature and in another post accused people on this site of trying to discourage new discus keepers from trying to keep discus, by setting standards so high.
She started it and got what she had coming.
Al pmd me and asked that I not do it again, to let his mods take care of it.
And I told him I would follow his rules.

Maybe the way I acted was inappropriate but still , I'm not the type to sit here and let someone talk smack and tell lies.
If thats what a dick is then I suppose I am one. I'll wear that badge, no problem.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Criticism or disagreement can be phrased in a polite way. Your posts have sometimes been rude and peppered with obscenities, which is unnecessary and tends to give people the wrong impression about you. Surely you can disagree without insulting those with whom you disagree.

[ZX10R]

I will admit it just gets under my skin when someone new comes here and the thread is called "What do you think of my fish" and the first thing everyones says is garbage, trash fish, take them back, body to eye ratio is off, waste of many, buy from a sponsor you are wasting money. Then you look over and see they have maybe 4 posts and you realize they are new on here. I mean come on instead of bashing them right from the start talk to them point them in the right direction and help them learn the difference between the fish don't rip them. Also just because someone has a different idea them yours don't tell them they are stupid and they are going to fail. I have 22 discus I bought around 2.5"-3.5" and 2 Stingrays I grew everyone of them out in substrate, sand, driftwood and I bet over half my fish now are over 5.5" several being over 6+". Was that the way you would of done it maybe not but it worked for me and my fish are nice and big and healthy. I think there is a difference between giving advise in a nice way and telling someone do it this way or you will fail.

[YSS]

We can all strive to improve how we respond and try to help other members without bashing.

[roclement]

Here's what I'll do when I newb asks again about his discus...

"...dear new person, please be aware that you have joined a elite forum that deals only with discus therefore our standards are a little higher than other forums when in comes to discus (the people here are way below common standards! :) ) so please take my oppinion and any input I give with a grain of salt and take it if you wish...this is in no way personal or directed towards your inteligence or lack thereof, you came and you asked and you shall receive.

Very respectfully submited,

Rodrigo"

Maybe I'll make this my new signature!

Rodrigo

[TURQ64]

Originally Posted by seanbuehrle
Bologna
Did you read that entire thread? I'll be you didn't.
That person was being judgmental and a snob.
She came to the conclusion that waterchanges were not needed and took a Jab at people who do large waterchanges.
She said she couldn't believe we were so unfriendly towards nature and in another post accused people on this site of trying to discourage new discus keepers from trying to keep discus, by setting standards so high.
She started it and got what she had coming.
Al pmd me and asked that I not do it again, to let his mods take care of it.
And I told him I would follow his rules.

Maybe the way I acted was inappropriate but still , I'm not the type to sit here and let someone talk smack and tell lies.
If thats what a dick is then I suppose I am one. I'll wear that badge, no problem.





Criticism or disagreement can be phrased in a polite way. Your posts have sometimes been rude and peppered with obscenities, which is unnecessary and tends to give people the wrong impression about you. Surely you can disagree without insulting those with whom you disagree.

Still flogging that horse?



We call all strive to improve how we respond and try to help other members without bashing.

So, we're supposed to change our personalities to a phony persona that isn't really who we are?..Nada, my friend........

[judy]

Originally Posted by seanbuehrle
Bologna
Did you read that entire thread? I'll be you didn't.
That person was being judgmental and a snob.
She came to the conclusion that waterchanges were not needed and took a Jab at people who do large waterchanges.
She said she couldn't believe we were so unfriendly towards nature and in another post accused people on this site of trying to discourage new discus keepers from trying to keep discus, by setting standards so high.
She started it and got what she had coming.
Al pmd me and asked that I not do it again, to let his mods take care of it.
And I told him I would follow his rules.

Maybe the way I acted was inappropriate but still , I'm not the type to sit here and let someone talk smack and tell lies.
If thats what a dick is then I suppose I am one. I'll wear that badge, no problem.






Still flogging that horse?




So, we're supposed to change our personalities to a phony persona that isn't really who we are?..Nada, my friend........

This is exactly what I mean. "Still flogging that horse" is unconstructive and impolite. Are you naturally rude and abrasive when you have conversations with people? If your real persona is rude, insulting, expletive-laden, and intolerant of other opinions, then by all means feel free to behave that way. Surely, though, you're not that sort of person-- and if you're not, why would you feel it's socially acceptable to behave that way online?
Forums where flame wars constantly erupt thanks to a few individuals are pointless, irritating, and generally tend to degrade into a bunch of hotheads cussing each other out while more civilized heads just leave, allowing the thing to collapse into a little node of online nastiness.
This forum has been *almost* entirely free of that sort of destructive attitude, and I really hope it stays that way, because for the most part, it's a large group of people who are intelligent, tolerant of others, willing to share experiences, able to accept other opinions without dumping on the people who hold them, and more than willing to help others whose fish may be in trouble for whatever reason.
The few people who tend to flame or who are rude, abrupt, or mean-spirited don't do so often, and I wish they'd do so even less, because it's those few who degrade the image of the forum in the online fish forum world. And that's really a shame, because this is both a great resource and a generally great communiyt of like-minded folks-- and it's one I very much appreciate having.

[YSS]

We can all strive to improve how we respond and try to help other members without bashing.

So, we're supposed to change our personalities to a phony persona that isn't really who we are?..Nada, my friend........

I miss typed a word (meant to say can, not call), but I think you knew what I meant.

I don't think trying to be nicer is changing your personality or being a phony. There is always room for improvement.

[lipadj46]

My angle as a new guy who got a bit of the "hazing" or maybe just a dose of the ugly truth. You deal with any enthusiasts at the top of any hobby you get what could be perceived as elistist attitudes, its not just here but most every "specific" forum. You have to pay your dues and deal with the attitude until people think you are learning and falling in line with the board's idiosynchrosis and contributing.

As far as expecting most newcomers to come and read stickies and search first before asking and not get offended if they feel slighted don't hold your breath.

[TURQ64]

This is exactly what I mean. "Still flogging that horse" is unconstructive and impolite. Are you naturally rude and abrasive when you have conversations with people? If your real persona is rude, insulting, expletive-laden, and intolerant of other opinions, then by all means feel free to behave that way. Surely, though, you're not that sort of person-- and if you're not, why would you feel it's socially acceptable to behave that way online?
Forums where flame wars constantly erupt thanks to a few individuals are pointless, irritating, and generally tend to degrade into a bunch of hotheads cussing each other out while more civilized heads just leave, allowing the thing to collapse into a little node of online nastiness.
This forum has been *almost* entirely free of that sort of destructive attitude, and I really hope it stays that way, because for the most part, it's a large group of people who are intelligent, tolerant of others, willing to share experiences, able to accept other opinions without dumping on the people who hold them, and more than willing to help others whose fish may be in trouble for whatever reason.
The few people who tend to flame or who are rude, abrupt, or mean-spirited don't do so often, and I wish they'd do so even less, because it's those few who degrade the image of the forum in the online fish forum world. And that's really a shame, because this is both a great resource and a generally great communiyt of like-minded folks-- and it's one I very much appreciate having.

Actually, you don't want to go there with me..Yes, Ive been extremely rude in real life, in person. I'm a very proud to be retired Structural Ironworker's supt..I never get men and women to risk their lives at a thousand feet for some measely wage by being sweet. I've never told some guy his toolbelt looks great...I haven't told some connector his eight pound sledge hammer was pretty.... my average tone of voice and level of criticism makes petals fall off of plants in adjacent high rises...people flat assed leave the building when one of my guys drops a bolt or a washer and I have to talk dirty for a spell..I was punking blurprints on the derrick floor at twelve for my father, a second generation Ironworker...cut my teeth on structural bolts...played toys on the bridge deck..we won't go there. You can't take the heat. And if that's where I'm expected to change, then perhaps it's not the site for me, just beginner's and anthromorphic tree huggers.....You are getting my polite PC computer ettiquette side

[roclement]

Actually, you don't want to go there with me..Yes, Ive been extremely rude in real life, in person. I'm a very proud to be retired Structural Ironworker's supt..I never get men and women to risk their lives at a thousand feet for some measely wage by being sweet. I've never told some guy his toolbelt looks great...I haven't told some connector his eight pound sledge hammer was pretty.... my average tone of voice and level of criticism makes petals fall off of plants in adjacent high rises...people flat assed leave the building when one of my guys drops a bolt or a washer and I have to talk dirty for a spell..I was punking blurprints on the derrick floor at twelve for my father, a second generation Ironworker...cut my teeth on structural bolts...played toys on the bridge deck..we won't go there. You can't take the heat. And if that's where I'm expected to change, then perhaps it's not the site for me, just beginner's and anthromorphic tree huggers.....You are getting my polite PC computer ettiquette side

:)

[jarret8x]

Actually, you don't want to go there with me..Yes, Ive been extremely rude in real life, in person. I'm a very proud to be retired Structural Ironworker's supt..I never get men and women to risk their lives at a thousand feet for some measely wage by being sweet. I've never told some guy his toolbelt looks great...I haven't told some connector his eight pound sledge hammer was pretty.... my average tone of voice and level of criticism makes petals fall off of plants in adjacent high rises...people flat assed leave the building when one of my guys drops a bolt or a washer and I have to talk dirty for a spell..I was punking blurprints on the derrick floor at twelve for my father, a second generation Ironworker...cut my teeth on structural bolts...played toys on the bridge deck..we won't go there. You can't take the heat. And if that's where I'm expected to change, then perhaps it's not the site for me, just beginner's and anthromorphic tree huggers.....You are getting my polite PC computer ettiquette side

Fine by me I much rather here it straight from someone like you than go to another forum and be lied to and be treated better. Lets just all keep it real and let al decide who is bad like everyone has been.seems to be working here.because without all the advice of everyone on here I would have ended with awful looking discus and I know it. This is why I come to this site to learn from people who have done it and have been thought it. So I rather keep people like gary around then gain a few people who have no idea what their doing. Just my point of view.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

[Discus Origins]

Lots of dialogue on this topic, guess time for me to jump in-

We all know deep down inside what treating others with respect and integrity is, how we choose to use that knowledge is what makes us different individually. Treat others the way we want to be treated, how many of our mothers said that a thousand times? I don't think asking each of us to answer newbie questions with a positive tone is a lot. Out of the thousands of members on this forum there may be a handful that has truly been involved with discus on a breeding, research, commercial basis to even have tested out all the 'rules' of discus keeping to know if they are true on a personal basis, not heresay or third party experience. The rest are here to interject what they've learned in their short time with discus.

I read lots of posts on here every day and most of the 'advice' given are either what they heard from someone else or just plain wrong. I do read lots of negative comments to newbies, and of course the regular attacks on someone trying out a biotope or planted tank. There isn't one 'right' way to keep discus, and it shouldn't feel that way to anyone new to the hobby. Last I checked many breeders and suppliers of discus are closing up or scaling down. The hobby is declining, the last thing we discus lovers need to do is create a elitist attitude because we think all other fish is below our standards. Welcoming newbies and then taking the time to teach them, with options, is what will get more people involved.

Now, we all have seen the occasional newbie who doesn't take our advice. Those are the ones I have no problem straightening out when they continue to have problems. But I think this is more about the interaction in the beginning, its not hard to see that this is someone's first few posts. Give them a break, help them out because even though this may be our 100th time hearing the same question, its their first time talking about it. We all started as dumb fishkeepers, it took many mistakes and lots of advice to get where I am now. If someone would have just treated me as a waste of time and given me attitude when I asked questions I probably would not have kept discus for the past 20 years.

And to all the 'straight talkers' on the forum, no need to change your ways. Maybe just stay out of the conversation until you see that wrong advice is being given or the newbie is not listening. Then I'm sure if you guys don't jump in I will.

[LizStreithorst]

Actually, you don't want to go there with me..My average tone of voice and level of criticism makes petals fall off of plants in adjacent high rises...people flat assed leave the building when one of my guys drops a bolt or a washer and I have to talk dirty for a spell..I was punking blurprints on the derrick floor at twelve for my father, a second generation Ironworker...cut my teeth on structural bolts...played toys on the bridge deck..we won't go there. You can't take the heat. And if that's where I'm expected to change, then perhaps it's not the site for me, just beginner's and anthromorphic tree huggers.....You are getting my polite PC computer ettiquette side

No one should ask you to change the way you are. I think you're great! I used to make people quake in their shoes once upon a time. All 5' 3" 115 lbs of me. Go figure...Old age has mellowed me a bit.

[ericatdallas]

Wow, this convo is degrading...

It went from a debate on the perception people have (which, I haven't seen any evidence that supports the claim), to the legitimacy of the claim, to how we should act?

If anyone is out of line, invisible laws go to work to fix the situation. Viewing past threads, people who are "trolls", jerks, etc are banned AND opposed by the general forum members. It's a self-correcting process. If we're all jerks and we are all okay with it, then nothing needs to be changed.

Occassionaly we say things that offend new members, they say things that annoy us, and even more often we get irritated at each other (this thread as an example).

That being said, it's NEVER okay to intentionally be a jerk. If you are intentionally a jerk, you're just WRONG. HOWEVER, speaking the truth, giving it straight, and not hand-holding every new guy IS NOT the same thing as being a jerk. IF you're saying things just to be mean, that aren't constructive and deliberately insulting, or you're purposely trying to intimidate then you are a jerk and chances are good that people will ignore you anyway.

If you fall anywhere in between at certain times then it's called being HUMAN.

JMO.

[Larry Bugg]

No one should ask you to change the way you are. I think you're great! I used to make people quake in their shoes once upon a time. All 5' 3" 115 lbs of me. Go figure...Old age has mellowed me a bit.

LOL, Liz. You still have it girl!! You made me jump a couple of times when we were dealing with the raffle. But then again, I know you well enough to take it with a grain of salt. Mellowed...................you can still be pretty fiesty when you need to be. And if you are old then that makes me old.................don't think so!

[Larry Bugg]

After reading this afternoons replies I remember why I wasn't going to to post to this thread.

[judy]

Telling it straight-- especially online, when voice can't be used to help interpret tone-- can be done in a well-mannered way, I believe. That's not asking anyone to change the way they are in terms of their personality.

[richgrenfell]

Actually, you don't want to go there with me..Yes, Ive been extremely rude in real life, in person. I'm a very proud to be retired Structural Ironworker's supt..I never get men and women to risk their lives at a thousand feet for some measely wage by being sweet. I've never told some guy his toolbelt looks great...I haven't told some connector his eight pound sledge hammer was pretty.... my average tone of voice and level of criticism makes petals fall off of plants in adjacent high rises...people flat assed leave the building when one of my guys drops a bolt or a washer and I have to talk dirty for a spell..I was punking blurprints on the derrick floor at twelve for my father, a second generation Ironworker...cut my teeth on structural bolts...played toys on the bridge deck..we won't go there. You can't take the heat. And if that's where I'm expected to change, then perhaps it's not the site for me, just beginner's and anthromorphic tree huggers.....You are getting my polite PC computer ettiquette side

LOL! As a heavy equipment mechanic and welder, I totally get that!

[roclement]

Judy,

With all due respect to you since I do not mean this in any offensive way of any kind...please believe me.

How can we presume to be the judges of how people behave and what they mean, intention wise when they post? Isn't that what the mods and Al and Ryan are in place for? It has worked well so far and I see no reason why it would stop all of the sudden.

Assuming that your way of comunicating is any better than any one elses makes you look arrogant in my eyes...I am sorry but I am being honest. How can we presume that one way is better than another? Just because we think so?

The only way this all works is if we all trust the people that run this place to keep it civil and keep it running, if we all start recomending to other members how they should or not behave, all we are going to have if flame wars and bickering. It has worked this way since 2002 and I think it will for a much longer time to come.

Rodrigo

[Sean Buehrle]

Criticism or disagreement can be phrased in a polite way. Your posts have sometimes been rude and peppered with obscenities, which is unnecessary and tends to give people the wrong impression about you. Surely you can disagree without insulting those with whom you disagree.

Again bologna
I've never said one cuss word on this site unless I was saying the same thing the person I was talking to said it first, find one and prove me wrong.
You won't be able to.

I find it pretty funny your selective reading of my posts, go back and re read them.
I have in the case of the woman I was talking about in the other post responded to her profanity by using the exact same words she used first.
I believe she said I needed to get laid, I responded to that, but still no cuss words.

In the case of Judy who I have no problem with, she like you jumped on my case without a bit of reason, she clearly didn't read any post in that thread but mine, it ticked her off and she blamed me for everything. Still no cuss words.

In another thread in water works I got into a heated discussion with a person here in my city that I invited here quite frankly because he is selling discus to people in my fish club that are below sub par. It's the way he is raising them, no water changes.
I'm trying to get thru to him and others in this club how to raise or purchase a quality or at least a healthy discus, it's a losing and frustrating battle. One that ive given up on, in the future ill just point out everything that is wrong with his fish so nobody will waste their money on them.

So get to looking and post these obscene words I've used, your not going to find any.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jimg]

I read lots of posts on here every day and most of the 'advice' given are either what they heard from someone else or just plain wrong.


There isn't one 'right' way to keep discus, and it shouldn't feel that way to anyone new to the hobby.

I don't get it. in the first line you say most are wrong then you say there is no "right" way
If so many on here giving their advice are all wrong where are you with all the expert answers? what makes you above many on here?

[strawberryblonde]

Woohoo, time for me to toss in my two lil cents on this thread. I was going to do it three hours ago, but darn the guy (Eric, I'm looking at YOU) who posted all the links to illustrate this topic. Someone on one of those links has five pages of info on raising cali blackworms in a substrated tank. Soooooo fascinating!!! =)

So here's my take on the general opinion (out there on the web) that SD'ers are elitist snobs who are overly critical and want to scare people away from keeping discus. I found plenty of those types of comments on various forums back in January when I started researching current discus keeping info. I read it all, and then headed straight here to see what all the hullabaloo was about.

And I never looked back once I registered on SD.

What I found here was a wealth of knowledge from some very intelligent folks who talk straight, don't mince words, have good advice and the experience to back up their advice. I was amazed to find so many who are always willing to help anyone who honestly wants help.

Some people here are more direct than others in their manner of typing. Some are middle of the road and others (like myself) are long winded and end up using a lot more virtual space than absolutely necessary in order to say the same thing the more direct folks are saying. It comes down to personal style and good lord, we need ALL three styles on these boards!

I may not be able to keep it short and simple when I type, but I surely do appreciate getting those short, direct, no-nonsense answers when I post a thread!

Turk64 beat me to a reply about how people are in real life, compared to on the web. Bless his heart, he and my husband would have a lovely time jawing in real life. My husband shoots from the hip, is direct and honest on matters that matter and after a 20+ year career in the armed services, he tends to think that expletives aren't just adjectives, they are verbs, nouns and modifiers. Most people who take 5 minutes to actually talk with him and get to know him appreciate his no nonsense approach to life. Those that don't aren't people he cares to know. LOL

I'm a softie. I refuse to sugar coat or lie to anyone about the condition of their fish or the lack of care they are giving their fish, but I'll also go to great lengths to explain how to properly care for the fish and I'm even willing to repeat it more than once if I think they aren't "getting it". That doesn't make me a better person for these forums, just a different type of conversationalist.

My point is that each type of person on these forums serves a purpose since we get all sorts of questions and all types of people here.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh, almost forgot to add that I was truly intimidated when I made my first thread on the forums! I sat here thinking I was going to look like an idiot for the questions I asked. Instead, I got a lot of nice answers, made a few quick friends and took the more pointed points (Turk and Warlock, you know who you are) to heart, changed my plans for my tank and have been grateful to them ever since. I have about the healthiest danged discus you ever wanted to see and it's thanks to the guys who were willing to speak in no nonsense words!

[Discus Origins]

I don't get it. in the first line you say most are wrong then you say there is no "right" way
If so many on here giving their advice are all wrong where are you with all the expert answers? what makes you above many on here?

You don't get it Jim? You don't get the difference between giving wrong advice vs not telling people there is only one way to keep discus? Lets see if I can simplify it for you:

wrong advice - you can keep all discus in high ph and hard water
no 'right' way - you don't have to keep discus in only BB tanks

Not sure how those two are even related in topic like you tried to make it sound like but hopefully its clear now. As for me being 'above' many on here, I never said I was better than anybody. I said to treat each other with respect and integrity. Read all my posts, I've never had an attitude or been discouraging to anyone who was asking for advice. And any advice I've given has been something I've learned from making my own mistakes or personally succeeded doing things a certain way. You found a way to have an attitude about that, explain your reasoning.

[jimg]

very simple how I take that. most of the advice you say given on here is wrong. if there is more than one way to keep/care for discus then who is to say what is right and what is wrong. that's how their related. You think saying most on here are giving wrong advice and copying what they heard is treating anyone on here with respect and integrity?
You learned it all and everyone is else is wrong is how I take what you say.
Many on here share what they have learned and many things work for some and not others due to water,food what ever.
what you think you may have learned may work for you but not others. so to say their wrong is bs
I'll make this very simple for you, if you don't like what others post on here, right or wrong in your opinion then go to aquaria central and bs them.

[Discus Origins]

very simple how I take that. most of the advice you say given on here is wrong. if there is more than one way to keep/care for discus then who is to say what is right and what is wrong. that's how their related. You think saying most on here are giving wrong advice and copying what they heard is treating anyone on here with respect and integrity?
You learned it all and everyone is else is wrong is how I take what you say.
Many on here share what they have learned and many things work for some and not others due to water,food what ever.
what you think you may have learned may work for you but not others. so to say their wrong is bs
I'll make this very simple for you, if you don't like what others post on here, right or wrong in your opinion then go to aquaria central and bs them.

Well Jim I guess simple minds work in different ways, you can take whatever you want out of what I say...but all you are doing is putting your own spin on it to make it sound like you have a point. So far all you've done is not contribute a single thing to this post except to try and be argumentative. I can speak your language too Jim, so don't come one here with your 'machine operator' front and act like you know any more than anyone else either. So unless you are saying you know more than me, don't try to BS me. I'll make it simple for you too, if you don't like what I'm saying stop reading it or go 'computer bully' some other putz who's going to be affected by your useless words. You have no idea which posts I'm saying are wrong, if you actually take the time to go thru all the posts I'm sure you'll find a lot that you believe are not correct.


Difference with respect and integrity - I don't go onto the post and call them out and call them an idiot/dummy or whatever you would have done. I just add to the post and say this is how I would do it and maybe they'll get a better result. That's the difference between me and you Jim cuz this is what you do and that's what I do.

I'll stoop down to your level for a min, You mean nothing to me besides a sign on name, don't tell me to go somewhere else. You can stick that up where the sun don't shine cuz you'll never intimidate me. I can tell you that you don't know enough about discus to be talking to me as if YOU are some sort of expert. So stop your BS with me and contribute something positive to the post. Otherwise find a way to say what you want to people face to face, you'll have a different tune when they don't 'type' to respond to your attitude. I'm fine with it either way.

You've turned this thread into some sort of pissing contest between me and you. Maybe that's what the original subject was about, getting less of this crap on here and more of helping the hobby grow.

[mrblah00]

After reading this afternoons replies I remember why I wasn't going to to post to this thread.

+1

[judy]

Judy,

With all due respect to you since I do not mean this in any offensive way of any kind...please believe me.

How can we presume to be the judges of how people behave and what they mean, intention wise when they post? Isn't that what the mods and Al and Ryan are in place for? It has worked well so far and I see no reason why it would stop all of the sudden.

Assuming that your way of comunicating is any better than any one elses makes you look arrogant in my eyes...I am sorry but I am being honest. How can we presume that one way is better than another? Just because we think so?

The only way this all works is if we all trust the people that run this place to keep it civil and keep it running, if we all start recomending to other members how they should or not behave, all we are going to have if flame wars and bickering. It has worked this way since 2002 and I think it will for a much longer time to come.

Rodrigo

I don't think suggesting people be civil is arrogant. Being polite may be a "way of communicating"-- but don't you think being polite ought to be a pretty basic standard that we're all perfectly capable of following? All it is, is speaking to other people the way you'd like them to speak to you. What is so difficult about that concept?
Now, I'll ring off, since I've made my point as clearly as I can.

[roclement]

What I am saying is that ones view of polite or civil can vary from someone else's, your life experiences may have prepared you one way,
Mine some other and so on.
The moderation system here involves multiple people from different walks of life, if they judge it to be appropriate, then we must accept it. If I find a discussion I don't want to be a part off, I just stay away.

Rodrigo

[Keith Perkins]

Paul is like the virtual equivalent to a walking billboard for this site. :) From post #36.

The above I'm sure is why Paul started this thread in the first place. Like me, it seems he thinks this is absolutely the best place for people to go to learn about discus and to share discus knowledge. He's making the effort to steer new folks here, he's written a guide for newbies to set up a discus tank, etc., etc., etc. Now maybe everyone on those other forums he referred to as complaining about SD encounters were kooks or quacks, but I doubt it. I mean what are the odds of that being true. So the others that FEEL badly about the way they perceived they were treated here and are posting about it elsewhere are people the forum had a chance to educate and inform that instead got chased away. In my opinion, and I hope dang near everyone's, that's too bad.


So, we're supposed to change our personalities to a phony persona that isn't really who we are?..Nada, my friend........


.....You are getting my polite PC computer ettiquette side

Now some of you are going to think the above quotes are going to lead to me saying Gary is contradicting himself. I'm not, quite the opposite. We all are who we are, but at the same time we should remember where we are when we're sitting at our keyboards. Before this thread I had no idea Gary was actually so much like my United Steelworkers Member father, at least in his younger days, and in a forum like this I shouldn't have. You can be straight with people and tell them their fish is ugly without coming off as being ugly, it's really not that hard.

There's been talk about Al shouldn't change the rules around here etc., I don't think Paul ever intended them to be. Al's rules no doubt were set up to establish certain MINIMUM acceptable standards. Problem is the people who were chased likely never encountered anything that involved violated forum standards. It much more likely was things people had every right to say, but it wasn't the right thing to say or the right way to say it. My guess is Paul was just hoping we all could set our personal bars a little higher than the minimum standards and that the forum would be better for it. If that wasn't his hope, it's mine.

[Jason K.]

From post #36.

The above I'm sure is why Paul started this thread in the first place. Like me, it seems he thinks this is absolutely the best place for people to go to learn about discus and to share discus knowledge. He's making the effort to steer new folks here, he's written a guide for newbies to set up a discus tank, etc., etc., etc. Now maybe everyone on those other forums he referred to as complaining about SD encounters were kooks or quacks, but I doubt it. I mean what are the odds of that being true. So the others that FEEL badly about the way they perceived they were treated here and are posting about it elsewhere are people the forum had a chance to educate and inform that instead got chased away. In my opinion, and I hope dang near everyone's, that's too bad.





Now some of you are going to think the above quotes are going to lead to me saying Gary is contradicting himself. I'm not, quite the opposite. We all are who we are, but at the same time we should remember where we are when we're sitting at our keyboards. Before this thread I had no idea Gary was actually so much like my United Steelworkers Member father, at least in his younger days, and in a forum like this I shouldn't have. You can be straight with people and tell them their fish is ugly without coming off as being ugly, it's really not that hard.

There's been talk about Al shouldn't change the rules around here etc., I don't think Paul ever intended them to be. Al's rules no doubt were set up to establish certain MINIMUM acceptable standards. Problem is the people who were chased likely never encountered anything that involved violated forum standards. It much more likely was things people had every right to say, but it wasn't the right thing to say or the right way to say it. My guess is Paul was just hoping we all could set our personal bars a little higher than the minimum standards and that the forum would be better for it. If that wasn't his hope, it's mine.
Well said keith!!!

[zman78]

I've only been here a short while and have only a few posts. In the posts I have made, everyone has been polite and courteous in their responses. I think there may be perhaps some jealousy since those at other forums knows there is more work and knowledge involved in discus keeping than say oscars or angels (I've kept both in the past). Also the fact that the phrase king of the aquarium may go to some peoples' heads at other forums and automatically associate the people on this forum as being snobs. I am happy to be a member as I have learned a great deal in the short time I've been here and look forward to learning much more. :)

[Ronald]

...........................................

Regards,
Ronald

[joanstone]

+1 Keith, you've gotten right to the heart of it, it's really quite simple.

[judy]

+2, Keith. Very well said.

[TURQ64]

Jeesh!..I can't believe I'm posting on this topic, but...I was not new to Discus, but new to this forum when I joined,so that makes me some kind of 'newbie'....when I first posted, I got treated like sh*t, with a few figuring I was a troll or somebody else. so what?..I'm not thin skinned, and realised right away that some were quick to defend their stance..my kind of people. Raising Discus isn't for thin skinned people anyhow...I try to be helpful..Sometimes I use too much tact, and don't exactly 'tell it like it is' to a poster..That's my version of 'nice'..Sometimes I'm blunt and opinionated, and pee a few folks off, but this sometimes if not always comes with truth...If a person pops in here timidly, and gets offended by our comments, then perhaps natural selection has occurred here as it does with the fish...I also feel a bit 'pigeon-holed' by this thread's inference, but as mentioned, I'm not thin skinned, so I guess if our shoe fits, we should wear it, not compromise the shoe itself....Gary

I stand by, and reiterate my first post to this thread....Somewhere, this thread indeed turned in to a p*ssing contest between many. My observation at this point is that
1.) I truthfully doubt that it changed one ripple of opinion in the outside domain regarding our facade on other forums.
2.) No need for trolls; by purely good intent, everyone began squabbling amongst members, causing yet again undue ill will
3.) I will now rethink every thought I come across regarding future answers to postings.
4.) Adherence to number 3 will most likely leave me disinterested in answering newbies for a while, instead, conversing with members of like mind, greatly limiting my number and frequency of posts...
That's my original, and final 2 cents on this topic.enjoy your Discus hobby..Regards

[jimg]

your obviously not very smart so I will end this with this... You posted "I read lots of posts on here every day and most of the 'advice' given are either what they heard from someone else or just plain wrong". not me, I never said anything about anyone else. the one who says everyone else is wrong is the one who thinks he's right so don't be like a child and turn the facts.
sounds like your wife kicked your *** again!
any time you feel you want to continue this face to face let me know.

[jimg]

Well Jim I guess simple minds work in different ways, you can take whatever you want out of what I say...but all you are doing is putting your own spin on it to make it sound like you have a point. So far all you've done is not contribute a single thing to this post except to try and be argumentative. I can speak your language too Jim, so don't come one here with your 'machine operator' front and act like you know any more than anyone else either. So unless you are saying you know more than me, don't try to BS me. I'll make it simple for you too, if you don't like what I'm saying stop reading it or go 'computer bully' some other putz who's going to be affected by your useless words. You have no idea which posts I'm saying are wrong, if you actually take the time to go thru all the posts I'm sure you'll find a lot that you believe are not correct.


Difference with respect and integrity - I don't go onto the post and call them out and call them an idiot/dummy or whatever you would have done. I just add to the post and say this is how I would do it and maybe they'll get a better result. That's the difference between me and you Jim cuz this is what you do and that's what I do.

I'll stoop down to your level for a min, You mean nothing to me besides a sign on name, don't tell me to go somewhere else. You can stick that up where the sun don't shine cuz you'll never intimidate me. I can tell you that you don't know enough about discus to be talking to me as if YOU are some sort of expert. So stop your BS with me and contribute something positive to the post. Otherwise find a way to say what you want to people face to face, you'll have a different tune when they don't 'type' to respond to your attitude. I'm fine with it either way.

You've turned this thread into some sort of pissing contest between me and you. Maybe that's what the original subject was about, getting less of this crap on here and more of helping the hobby grow.
your obviously not very smart so I will end this with this... You posted "I read lots of posts on here every day and most of the 'advice' given are either what they heard from someone else or just plain wrong". not me, I never said anything about anyone else. the one who says everyone else is wrong is the one who thinks he's right so don't be like a child and turn the facts.
sounds like your wife kicked your *** again!
any time you feel you want to continue this face to face let me know.

[Stag]

So young, So angry. Damn that Rap Music!

JK guys

I am a newbie to this website and only ever felt bashed because of it once. You are always going to gave a few bad eggs on a website. Other then that most people on here are vary courteous.

OP, This website is not for first timers because discus are not for first timers. Before I spent a good 50-100 hours reading everything I could on these fish before I even registered with the forum. I don't think you should ever waste everyone elses time on here until you have done a bit of research. If you don't people are bound to give you flak.

[Discus Origins]

You keeping typing away if it makes you happy, again you have contributed nothing positive so far. Face to face? Anytime buddy.

I deleted an entire paragraph of non-sense because I'm not going to be classless, if you know what that means. I'm done responding to you, onto people worth my time.

[Keith Perkins]

Well Mark, I had already read that paragraph. Jim/Mark - by my estimation that minimum standards line is a good 3 feet behind both of you now. If you want to respond to me, I'd prefer you do it by PM.

[LizStreithorst]

I most certainly understand what he's saying, Jim. Perhaps you are the one who's thick. I'll be more than happy to take this up with you face to face. Will you be at NADA next year, bully? I'll be there.

I won't respond to this tread anymore. If anyone has anything to say to me about it, please do it via PM.


your obviously not very smart so I will end this with this... You posted "I read lots of posts on here every day and most of the 'advice' given are either what they heard from someone else or just plain wrong". not me, I never said anything about anyone else. the one who says everyone else is wrong is the one who thinks he's right so don't be like a child and turn the facts.
sounds like your wife kicked your *** again!
any time you feel you want to continue this face to face let me know.

[DiscusBR]

Al and others, it is high time to close this thread

[Discus Origins]

Sorry about that Keith, sometimes it takes bad people to bring out the worst in others. And in this case I fell for it....I'm done with this, positive interactions are we need for positive perception, not this other stuff.

[jimg]

first of all I was defending this site and many people I know who try to help others with advice from someone who said most advice given on this site is wrong.
Then my face to face answer was a reply to him saying I'd be different if I were talking face to face. so I answered it.
not worth the bs

[Embersmom]

I have to be honest, this forum scared the bejesus out of me when I joined a couple of years ago. April tried to talk me out of discus for a LOOONNNGG time and she was successful until I bought a tank that came with 5 discus and I was hooked. I thought they were the coolest things ever and when I posted pictures asking what they were, the replies TRASHED my poor fish!!! I felt terrible. I talked to April about it, but I was still hiding in a corner licking my wounds. Luckily, while this was happening, I got the odd pm from old'timers telling me what was what and that I shouldn't take things so hard. I found it really helpful when someone pointed out that Simply is world-wide. It has a much bigger audience than my local little forum where I actually know a lot of the folks. That helped put things in perspective. Some of the other pm's were really helpful, funny and some even touching. Eddie was (and is) AWESOME. He really made me feel welcome and that I had something to contribute to the forum. There were many others and after awhile I warmed up to the place. I still mostly lurk, but any time something goes wrong and I need a shoulder or an ear to listen, I know there's always someone here. And I don't know what I would do without Al and his BULK FDBW sales :)
Shelley

[April]

Well said Shelley. This forum is gentle and mild compared to a few we visited I'm the old days. That's where I met brew, Ryan, John Nicholson, Jim quarles, Hans, etc etc. That forum was called discus persons In profile!!!, why do I bring that up? It's why simply was started. We wanted a more educational, helpful, compassionate forum with beginners and experts.
Al and Ryan have dome well to make policy's and keep it civil yes sometimes things go array but for the most part it's a great forum.
I think this thread has explored as far as it can go


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=49.274990,-122.835488

[Second Hand Pat]

Well said Shelley. This forum is gentle and mild compared to a few we visited I'm the old days. That's where I met brew, Ryan, John Nicholson, Jim quarles, Hans, etc etc. That forum was called discus persons In profile!!!, why do I bring that up? It's why simply was started. We wanted a more educational, helpful, compassionate forum with beginners and experts.
Al and Ryan have dome well to make policy's and keep it civil yes sometimes things go array but for the most part it's a great forum.
I think this thread has explored as far as it can go

Wow, if Skip was here he would be pulling out the popcorn. Think this thread has gone to the darkside.

[brewmaster15]

Dear SimplyDiscus Members,
I am locking this thread while I actually take the time to go thru it and digest it all. Truth is I am locking it to give myself some serious cool down Time...else I may write something that would just wind up on another forum I could care less about than the saw dust in my socks right now.

I just got my power back from hurricane Irene, spent the day cutting trees and doing water changes, check my emails and log in and read this.

I don't think Paul meant any harm in his starting this thread, But I do think the concern was miss-placed...a few dozen negatives by people is unavoidable when dealing with thousands. It doesn't signify a serious problem with Simplydiscus, IME. Negative people always scream more than positive ones, and rarely ever look hard at themselves and their role in a conflict. I admit that sometimes I feel as if this forum is under appreciated by most...The criticisms are always there, sure would be nice if the positives were shouted as louder or louder..some do...and for that I thank you! most don't...Its just the way these things work.


.. As a general FYI>>>>I don't measure the success and usefulness of this forum by that.. I measure it by the people we help, I measure it by the ones that praise the site, that thank the site , the ones that support and recommend the site.I measure it by the pms and letters I get sent that thank me and our staff for what we do here.

I've been doing this for many years, and if you look at a moment in time,which is what a thread on any forum represents you find those that love a site, those that hate one, and those that used to feel otherwise....heck some of my good friends today are ones I banned yesterday :) I can assure you they did not have much good to say about me back then!

If you value this site then step up to the plate and try and be a positive influence on it and the hobby. If you have criticisms of it or concerns, best person to talk to is me...one on one...why? Because I set the tone here...its that Simple. I take full responsibility for this sites reputation as its owner. I try my best to steer this ship .

Theres always room for improvement in anything...and over the years we have consistently listened to peoples views. I have spent countless hours listening, reading suggestions, and talking with people...but let me be clear here...Ryan and I walk in a very large uncomfortable set of shoes here, so before anyone is too critical of the site and tone of this forum...try walking in our shoes.

and Ryan....You are not taking it too personal..it is personal..we've spent countless hours and alot of effort on building this site , if people knew half the BS you and I as well as our mods and admins have dealt with..I really wonder if this thread would exist at all. For you and I...it doesn't get any more personal than this....Simplydiscus is our home, our pride and Joy

If anyone has a problem with the forum and wants to severely criticize it,slam it or flame it....they are entitled to their opinion...but they can take that opinion elsewhere...This is not to say that having a problem with another member that chases someone away is wrong...it is to say that people should direct their criticism at the people involved....not Simplydiscus.com When people criticize this forum as a whole for the actions of a handful of people..they are insulting all those here that try to help others and try to act in a certain fashion..
and to clarify this...I am not talking about being concerned here...I am talking about people who have a fundamental difference of opinion as to how Simplydiscus should be run...for someone like that its best you go start your own forum...because I think this one is just fine as it is...it ain't perfect, but I've yet to meet anyone that was.

Regards all,
more latter.

-al