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zchauvin
10-09-2011, 09:06 PM
If my ph is under 7 is it safe to have fish in a brand new tank with no cycling first? Will it simply cycle with them inside and do no harm?

JustinKScott
10-09-2011, 10:18 PM
+1 for info; I'd like to know as well!


Jks
---------
60g waterfall tank
80g high tech planted (2.7w/g t5ho, pressured co2, EI ferts)
Bare-bottom Discus growth tank w/ 8 juvies
Angelfish breeder

cjr8420
10-09-2011, 10:20 PM
really you got a 1000 post and dont know how cycling a tank works yet. ph does not affect cycle.it will cycle with them in there but can cause damage or death to discus. ammonia and nitrite spikes are very bad.read beginners sticky on cycling a tank

TNT77
10-09-2011, 10:31 PM
Wouldnt advise putting discus in an uncycled tank.

Discus Origins
10-09-2011, 10:58 PM
Ammonia under ph of 6 turns into ammonium ions, which is less toxic. But once it's converted to nitrite that is toxic to fish no matter the ph level. So better off transfering some filter media/sponge from established tank to new tank instead of cycling brand new setup with discus.

Jhhnn
10-10-2011, 12:15 AM
Tanks need to be cycled prior to the introduction of fish, particularly valuable specimens. Just the way it is. While ammonia is less toxic at lower ph, it'll build up rapidly in a tank w/ no biofiltration, and nitrite is extremely toxic at any ph. A hobbyist might be able to get over with very large daily water changes & liberal use of prime, but it's not a good idea to try...

zchauvin
10-10-2011, 07:18 AM
Well to the people who didn't act like I knew nothing I appreciate it. Mark, isn't it under 7 that turns to ammonium.. that was my only question, didn't plan to cycle with 1500$ of fish inside.

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Second Hand Pat
10-10-2011, 08:17 AM
Zach, I was curious to the responses you would get. Not surprising that Mark had the answer you were seeking. Re-read Mark's post for the answer to your question above.

aalbina
10-10-2011, 08:26 AM
I would be worried about a change in Ph suddenly making all the ammonium chemically convert back to ammonia and cause a spike. From what I understand fish tanks tend toward moving more acidic if left alone - so it's probably not as risky as it feels to me. Still - that would be my fear. We've seen many beginners successfully keep discus in uncycled tanks (usually not on purpose) and smashing out water changes gets them through. I wonder if those with more acidic water have fewer losses than those with higher pHs - that would be interesting research!

Adam

zchauvin
10-10-2011, 09:08 AM
Well, I know everyone trying to help so not a big deal :) I just googled it so curious Haha

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Darrell Ward
10-10-2011, 10:58 AM
I have not cycled a tank in 20 years or so. I always have cycled bio media available for tank setups, and would never even think about putting fish (especially discus) in an uncycled set-up. Ammonia and nitrite severely damages fish, period. Even though the effects might not be so noticeable short term. I've heard the argument that using seeded media may give your fish diseases, well if your media comes from your own systems, then IMO that is just plain BS. If your fish are diseased, then you're doing something wrong in the first place. For the sake of argument, most disease can be successfully treated, ammonia damage is permanent, and will certainly shorten the lifespan and growth of the fish.

zchauvin
10-10-2011, 11:16 AM
I have not cycled a tank in 20 years or so. I always have cycled bio media available for tank setups, and would never even think about putting fish (especially discus) in an uncycled set-up. Ammonia and nitrite severely damages fish, period. Even though the effects might not be so noticeable short term. I've heard the argument that using seeded media may give your fish diseases, well if your media comes from your own systems, then IMO that is just plain BS. If your fish are diseased, then you're doing something wrong in the first place. For the sake of argument, most disease can be successfully treated, ammonia damage is permanent, and will certainly shorten the lifespan and growth of the fish.

Without a doubt. I was just reading that ammonia isn't harmful in water with a ph under 7. It was a random pass on Google that I brought here. I know the nitrite and nitrate would still be awful and the long term effects ect. of ammonia and nitrite.

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zchauvin
10-10-2011, 11:18 AM
Without a doubt. I was just reading that ammonia isn't harmful in water with a ph under 7. It was a random pass on Google that I brought here. I know the nitrite and nitrate would still be awful and the long term effects ect. of ammonia and nitrite. It was even mentioned, if I remember correctly that it was safe to cycle a tank this way with a low ph. Now you see how some people can get the completely wrong impression and end up here already troubled.

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jimg
10-10-2011, 04:17 PM
Without a doubt. I was just reading that ammonia isn't harmful in water with a ph under 7. It was a random pass on Google that I brought here. I know the nitrite and nitrate would still be awful and the long term effects ect. of ammonia and nitrite.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk you are right it is under 7.0
I am finding that many claim the bacteria in an established filter will be killed off under 6.0 ph
I have the wild altums now and doing major wc's with no filters as I am trying to lower ph in another tank with established filter slowly to try to get the ones(bacteria) that will survive in that low ph.
6.0 and below is all new to me!

TURQ64
10-10-2011, 04:24 PM
I have three display tanks at six or under, and one BB...It's a chore keeping it low here in granite land, but the rewards are huge; the fish look and act terrific. I've kept something at 5.5 or below since the early nineties..Partly do to the fact that ammonia becomes ammonium, and harmful critters find the high heat and acidic conditions intolerable..The transverse is also true; good bacteria are hard to culture in big quantities...

jimg
10-10-2011, 04:28 PM
I have three display tanks at six or under, and one BB...It's a chore keeping it low here in granite land, but the rewards are huge; the fish look and act terrific. I've kept something at 5.5 or below since the early nineties..Partly do to the fact that ammonia becomes ammonium, and harmful critters find the high heat and acidic conditions intolerable..The transverse is also true; good bacteria are hard to culture in big quantities...I know this may be a hard question to pin down but how long does it usually take you to get bio established at 5.5?

zchauvin
10-10-2011, 04:29 PM
I have three display tanks at six or under, and one BB...It's a chore keeping it low here in granite land, but the rewards are huge; the fish look and act terrific. I've kept something at 5.5 or below since the early nineties..Partly do to the fact that ammonia becomes ammonium, and harmful critters find the high heat and acidic conditions intolerable..The transverse is also true; good bacteria are hard to culture in big quantities...

Soo.. is it worth it? The low disease very natural acidic water that make ammonia an obsolete worry or the fact that we can't culture an adequate amount of bacteria in anything even close to there natural habitat
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JustinKScott
10-11-2011, 10:08 AM
Ammonium will convert to Nitrites in any PH, once the bio filter is established. Nitrites are poison.

So what if you simply don't allow a bio filter in your tank? Keep the ammonium from converting?

I doubt I'd ever do such a thing, as it would scare me everyday. But it's an interesting idea.


Jks
---------
60g waterfall tank
80g high tech planted (2.7w/g t5ho, pressured co2, EI ferts)
Bare-bottom Discus growth tank w/ 8 juvies
Angelfish breeder

judy
10-11-2011, 12:46 PM
I always thought a Ph under 6 could lead to a Ph crash, which would also kill the fish. Wrong?

zchauvin
10-11-2011, 12:49 PM
I always thought a Ph under 6 could lead to a Ph crash, which would also kill the fish. Wrong?

Many things lead to ph crash. I don't think a ph of 6 would give trouble. Start using chemicals to get it in the 4s then you will have more problems.

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Cevoe
10-11-2011, 01:19 PM
There is an excellent sticky on the top of this section page titled The Nitrogen Cycle.
I just read through it again and it touches on almost all of the topics being discussed in this thread.
Good reading for new discus keepers and also a good refresher for not so new discus keepers.

aalbina
10-11-2011, 01:24 PM
I always thought a Ph under 6 could lead to a Ph crash, which would also kill the fish. Wrong?

Certainly a pH crash can kill fish - but I don't think that a low pH leads to a pH crash. pH is a measure of the balance in hydrogen and hydroxide ions in the water. From what I understand the natural process of bacterial work on ammonia (ammonia -> nitrite -> nitrate) leaves a lot of hydrogen ions hanging around in the water. This will eventually make water that is left alone tend toward a more acidic state as the process continues producing hydrogen ions. If you have a low KH or carbonate hardness then the buffering capacity of your water (it's ability to bind with the extra hydrogen ions) will be maxed out sooner than well buffered water. When there are no more buffers - that's when the pH takes a sudden down turn - that's the crash - it's too many hydrogen ions with nothing to bind to - that makes your pH acidic. So I think if you have an acidic pH to begin with (whether natural are artificially created and buffered appropriately) and you have pretty good carbonate hardness - then your water will be acidic but will be stable and not a candidate for a pH crash.

I think this whole thread is very interesting. When I first started keeping discus, I was using reconstituted RO water (Kent's RO Right). My fish where healthy and their colors where vibrant at a pH of about 6.0. My KH was very low and I was always worried about a crash. I've since moved away from RO water to carbon and resin filtered water with good KH and an aged pH of about 7.8. My fish are still healthy - but their colors have not been as bright as they were at 6.0. I've also been chasing some protozoan that makes them twitch and itch off and on for a year. I'm considering mixing RO back in slowly, dropping the pH and seeing how things go. Zach's thread has really got me thinking about this.

Adam

zchauvin
10-11-2011, 01:34 PM
Certainly a pH crash can kill fish - but I don't think that a low pH leads to a pH crash. pH is a measure of the balance in hydrogen and hydroxide ions in the water. From what I understand the natural process of bacterial work on ammonia (ammonia -> nitrite -> nitrate) leaves a lot of hydrogen ions hanging around in the water. This will eventually make water that is left alone tend toward a more acidic state as the process continues producing hydrogen ions. If you have a low KH or carbonate hardness then the buffering capacity of your water (it's ability to bind with the extra hydrogen ions) will be maxed out sooner than well buffered water. When there are no more buffers - that's when the pH takes a sudden down turn - that's the crash - it's too many hydrogen ions with nothing to bind to - that makes your pH acidic. So I think if you have an acidic pH to begin with (whether natural are artificially created and buffered appropriately) and you have pretty good carbonate hardness - then your water will be acidic but will be stable and not a candidate for a pH crash.

I think this whole thread is very interesting. When I first started keeping discus, I was using reconstituted RO water (Kent's RO Right). My fish where healthy and their colors where vibrant at a pH of about 6.0. My KH was very low and I was always worried about a crash. I've since moved away from RO water to carbon and resin filtered water with good KH and an aged pH of about 7.8. My fish are still healthy - but their colors have not been as bright as they were at 6.0. I've also been chasing some protozoan that makes them twitch and itch off and on for a year. I'm considering mixing RO back in slowly, dropping the pH and seeing how things go. Zach's thread has really got me thinking about this.

Adam

Glad you added this write up. I will say that if nothing else you can clearly see that they rather the lower ph. When I had those tefe in my hard high ph water they werent horrible but they would get stressed easier and the colors wernt amazing. Thankfully my fish never had any sickness but with the fact that the lower ph alone doesn't harbor parasites as easily as tap or any high ph water for that matter makes you think. If your just using a ro unit I don't see why the ph would crash as easily as if you were using muriatic acid or other chemical to alter it.

And yes your buffering capacity means a lot.... As I'm suffering from right now with a ph spike after aging my water... 6-8, any fluctuation no matter up or down can be extremely harmful to fish.

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lipadj46
10-11-2011, 07:40 PM
NH3 is in equilibrium with NH4+, lower pH's will shift equilibrium towards the NH4+, there will still be NH3 present though at any pH. I'm too lazy to do the calculations but you can use the henderson hasselbalch equation to figure out how much of each. At low concentrations of ammonia/ammonium, sure things will be OK but when the [] starts climbing then you will have problems no matter what

Maria Ashton
10-16-2011, 07:06 AM
I have found this thread really interesting, I understand that in places like Thailand on their discus farms they do not use filters on the tanks but do 90% Wcs more than once a day. That is not practical for me nor, I suspect, most people. I am just getting used to domestic discus, once I am a bit more experienced I plan to try my hand at keeping wilds so I will be looking at lowering the ph, mine is 7 but I guess wilds like it much lower.

zchauvin
10-16-2011, 08:27 AM
7 is good, just a low tds.... I figured the same as you but learned quickly.

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runner
10-16-2011, 09:59 AM
I have 4 small discus,2 1/2 -3 " in an uncycled 75 . I change 75water everyday. Does anybody see a problem with that?

zchauvin
10-16-2011, 10:30 AM
I have 4 small discus,2 1/2 -3 " in an uncycled 75 . I change 75water everyday. Does anybody see a problem with that?

No. Just so long as the parameters are kept good.

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Brokenrack
10-28-2011, 10:14 AM
This is from a Seachem seagram on ammonia :

Free ammonia is uncharged and is a gas
dissolved in water. It can pass unimpeded
through membranes such as fish gills. This
allows it to interfere with the normal excretion of
ammonia and is believed to account for its toxicity. Ionized
ammonia is a charged particle and does not exist as a gas. It cannot
pass through membranes and is, therefore, relatively nontoxic. It
does, however, function as a proton donor, like the hydrogen ion,
and, in high concentrations, produces external burns that are identical
to acid burns. This is often seen in crowded gold fish ponds and
shipping containers. The external “burning” properties of ammonia in
high concentration at low pH should not be confused with the respiratory
toxicity of free ammonia.

So Ammonium can still cause burns.

fuzzy188
11-18-2011, 10:54 AM
I Don't think you should use discus for cycling your tank. The ammonia and nitites can hurt your fish.

judy
11-18-2011, 11:12 AM
I have 4 small discus,2 1/2 -3 " in an uncycled 75 . I change 75water everyday. Does anybody see a problem with that?
I do. Using fish to cycle a tank always bothers me. It's sort of Russian Roulette-ish.