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plecocicho
10-28-2011, 05:33 PM
Hello, how long after the introduction of prime is it still active, ie turning new ammonia nad nitrite into harmless mulecules? Can it still deativate any new formed ammonum, or it works only at the moment of its intruduction?
Cheers

Chad Hughes
10-28-2011, 05:42 PM
In my experience, Prime works immediately and is present for about 24 hours. It may be less than that.

Hope that helps!

ericatdallas
10-28-2011, 06:13 PM
Keep in mind, the amount of ammonia and chlorine it neutralizes is limited by the amount you put in the water...

I'm not sure exactly how long it lasts, but I certainly wouldn't count on it as a mid-term or long-term solution to my ammonia problems.

Samsmobb
10-28-2011, 11:12 PM
Last time I used it it didn't really last past a day or two :/

Orange Crush
01-08-2012, 01:52 AM
I'm confused as to why people use prime or safe. Doesn't that prevent a tank from being fully cycled?
Why use this instead of doing water changes until the nitrifying bacteria are in large enough #s to prevent ammonia?

ericatdallas
01-08-2012, 01:57 AM
People use it to dechlorinate the water. Most importantly if the area has chloramines. Standard sodium sulfate dechlorinators will neutralize chlorine, but will leave ammonia behind (for chloramine).

Most people don't use safe/prime for ammonia as a long-term solution. I'll do it if I experience a mini-cycle (from overstocking a tank, replacing some filter media, etc).

Orange Crush
01-08-2012, 02:12 AM
But there are so many good dechlorinators that remove chlorine and chloramines; why starve some of the BB? I can understand if you are going though a mini cycle in an established tank but from what I've been reading on the forum it sounds like many people use this as their only tap water cond.

dwilder
01-08-2012, 02:30 AM
it wont starve the bb ammonia still there just in different form so not harmful to fish anymore

lipadj46
01-08-2012, 09:41 AM
To answer the original question prime is done reacting as soon as you have added the amount of water you treated for. if you added excess it will continue reacting for say 5-10 minutes. the effects will last 24 hrs according to seachem, that is the NH4+ will not convert back to NH3. As mentioned above prime still leaves NH4+ for bb to eat

ericatdallas
01-08-2012, 12:18 PM
I can understand if you are going though a mini cycle in an established tank but from what I've been reading on the forum it sounds like many people use this as their only tap water cond.

I'm not sure I understand this last part. What other tap water conditioner are your recommending? Are you saying don't use prime/safe and let the ammonia stay behind for the bacteria to handle? Some people actually recommend that b/c the ammonia is nominal, but other people would prefer to neutralize the ammonia right away. It's personal preference. As lipad said, the ammonia is converted to a form that can still be used by the bacteria.

Melissa
01-08-2012, 01:58 PM
Prime does not eliminate ammonia or nitrite, it only renders it non toxic.

The ammonia is still there for the BB to 'eat'... Using Prime or SAFE does not prevent your tank from cycling. In fact, it's the best dechlorinator to use during a cycle if you have any fish during the cycle IMHO. It's very effective, and safe to use at up to 5x the recommended dosage.

cjr8420
01-08-2012, 03:07 PM
But there are so many good dechlorinators that remove chlorine and chloramines; why starve some of the BB? I can understand if you are going though a mini cycle in an established tank but from what I've been reading on the forum it sounds like many people use this as their only tap water cond.
how many tap water cond. would u recommend using and which ones do you consider good

lipadj46
01-08-2012, 03:16 PM
Again prime and safe are best. some people should make sure they have their facts straight before they make claims like prime will starve bb

Orange Crush
01-08-2012, 07:00 PM
I was not making any claims but instead trying to get the facts. I do not ask questions if I know the answer! :) I was asking about how it worked because I am unfamiliar with the product. I am trying to understand why people love this product so much if it did indeed stop a tank from growing all the BB necessary which according to you guys/gals it does not.

So it will detoxify any ammonia in the tank that exists for 24 hours after application but after that any ammonia that is created will not be converted, correct?

If I were to use this in a hospital tank that is not cycled should I bother using Stability or do you recommend using both Prime and Stability?

DonMD
01-08-2012, 07:46 PM
My experience in uncycled tanks is to use Prime for exactly the reasons Melissa says, because it detoxifies the ammonia and nitrite while I continue daily massive w/c's, until the nitrifying bacteria get up to speed. I'm unfamiliar with Stability. I just had an experience with a med that totally wiped out my biofilters, and I used Prime at x3 dosage daily with 85% w/c's and in about 3 weeks the tank completely cycled. Good luck.

Orange Crush
01-08-2012, 07:56 PM
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Stability.html

Melissa
01-09-2012, 02:39 AM
I do not cycle hospital tanks. A few medications can take out your bio filter anyway, and if you have a sick fish in it then lots of clean fresh water is necessary to aid in recovery no matter what you're treating.
The way I handle it is 80-100% water changes daily, or you can break it up in to a few smaller water changes. Just don't over feed, or let food sit uneaten for long and using Prime you will be just fine.

Or, you could simply use bio media from an already established tank in the hospital tank if you really want to... Maybe seed a few sponge filters in a main tank first then plop that sponge filter into a hospital tank?

Personally, I don't use products like stability that claim they shorten cycling time. I've found it's a waste of money and just a gimmick. Just my opinion though.

HTH

Orange Crush
01-09-2012, 02:55 AM
Thanks Mama. Yes it would be a waste to cycle a hosp tank. I was just wondering for when I get a sick fish the best way to maintain water quality. Are there not some meds where you should not do water changes? That is my concern....

ericatdallas
01-09-2012, 10:18 AM
Personally, I don't use products like stability that claim they shorten cycling time. I've found it's a waste of money and just a gimmick. Just my opinion though.


+1, I don't buy the hype in those either. Also, the quality of those depends on storage. I remember my LFS tried to sell me some and explained to me it had live bacteria in it. I asked, "How long has it been sitting there." -> "I don't know." Then I asked, "How does aerobic bacteria breathe in an airtight container?" -> "I don't know."

I can't claim to know how they work, but the way the LFS explained it to me, it seemed to me they either were making stuff up about how it worked or there can only be a limited lifetime to those things and it's vital to have a fresh bottle.



Thanks Mama. Yes it would be a waste to cycle a hosp tank. I was just wondering for when I get a sick fish the best way to maintain water quality. Are there not some meds where you should not do water changes? That is my concern....

I keep spare sponges to start a new tank or a hospital tank, but the few times I've had to do a hospital tank I've always done massive 75% WC anyway.

ShinShin
01-10-2012, 04:31 PM
Eric,

Bacteria do have the ability to go dormant in bad conditions and revive themselves when proper conditions exist. This is not an endorsement for these types of products, however. They may shorten the cycling time by a week at best has been my findings.

Mat

ericatdallas
01-10-2012, 04:52 PM
I think -proper- is the key. Not that I'm dismissing that they work, I'm just highly skeptical. I imagine the entire supply chain from manufacture to distribution. Are they in hot trucks traveling cross country, stored in warehouses for months, and then put at the LFS shelf for an indeterminate number of months? No expiration dates on the bottle (at least the ones I saw). Even if they can stay dormant (surviving on a minimal amount of oxygen and nutrients in the bottle), I imagine it can't do so indefinitely.

I'm usally able to my tank cycled in a week using a sponge from another tank. Depending on bio-load I might need two. I always experience a mini-cycle though unless I do a gradual introduction (i.e. my shrimp only tanks haven't had any problems unless I put fish in).

Again, not dismissing the products since I really have no clue how they -really- work other than what the LFS told me. I am just skeptical of all marketing actually. Buzz words set alarms off on me right away and tell me to avoid.

ShinShin
01-10-2012, 05:29 PM
Actually, I am all but dismissing these type products, Eric. lol

Mat

Orange Crush
01-15-2012, 01:26 PM
The bottle of Safe says not to overdose. What happens if you put too much in?

ericatdallas
01-15-2012, 04:13 PM
It depletes oxygen (short-term), adds sodium, and may encourage bacterial growth (not sure what doses and what effects).

I'm also not sure how much is TOO much, b/c I do overdose a lot...

Orange Crush
01-15-2012, 06:01 PM
I'm also not sure how much is TOO much, b/c I do overdose a lot...

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Safe.html
It has the doses on this page and after the dose for removing ammonia it says "Do not overdose" so I would imagine OD is any amount more than that dose.

Melissa
01-15-2012, 06:21 PM
In an ammonia/nitrite emergency, I've personally dosed 3 times the recommended dosage... Although I know of some people who have done 5x...

Orange Crush
01-15-2012, 06:30 PM
In an ammonia/nitrite emergency, I've personally dosed 3 times the recommended dosage... Although I know of some people who have done 5x...

Well I hope I never have one but that is good to know!

Orange Crush
01-18-2012, 05:23 PM
Just curious as to why people seem to think the ammonia removal aspect of Prime/Safe is necessary when changing water? Does some water out of the tap have ammonia?
I have tested mine and there is none.

DonMD
01-18-2012, 05:40 PM
Just curious as to why people seem to think the ammonia removal aspect of Prime/Safe is necessary when changing water? Does some water out of the tap have ammonia?
I have tested mine and there is none.

I don't use Prime for that reason. I use it after water changes to remove chlorine and chloramines.

jozwikjp
10-13-2012, 11:30 PM
I do not cycle hospital tanks. A few medications can take out your bio filter anyway, and if you have a sick fish in it then lots of clean fresh water is necessary to aid in recovery no matter what you're treating.
The way I handle it is 80-100% water changes daily, or you can break it up in to a few smaller water changes. Just don't over feed, or let food sit uneaten for long and using Prime you will be just fine.

Or, you could simply use bio media from an already established tank in the hospital tank if you really want to... Maybe seed a few sponge filters in a main tank first then plop that sponge filter into a hospital tank?

Personally, I don't use products like stability that claim they shorten cycling time. I've found it's a waste of money and just a gimmick. Just my opinion though.

HTH

Question, some of the medications I have say dose for 48 hours and then do a 25% water change. I assumed this would be because the medication stays in the water and continouly doses the fish.. If you do water changes more then the what is stated on the drugs, do you need to add more drugs?

Or does the drug dosage not work that way, and its AOK to do giant water changes a couple hours after dosing?

Orange Crush
10-14-2012, 03:52 AM
Question, some of the medications I have say dose for 48 hours and then do a 25% water change. I assumed this would be because the medication stays in the water and continouly doses the fish.. If you do water changes more then the what is stated on the drugs, do you need to add more drugs?

Or does the drug dosage not work that way, and its AOK to do giant water changes a couple hours after dosing?
if a certain amount of drugs needs to be in the water for a specific set of time then any amount of drugs removed doing a water change needs to be replaced.

Eddie
10-14-2012, 06:40 AM
if a certain amount of drugs needs to be in the water for a specific set of time then any amount of drugs removed doing a water change needs to be replaced.

Unless it is a drug that is neutralized or used up such as metro. In that case, I would dose back the entire amount of the tank.