What water conditioners do you use?

[SeaDragon]

I'm looking to find a safe water conditioner for my Discus Aquariums. I tried a few months ago AmQuel Plus, but they obviously didn not like this change. They were gasping and hanging out at the top of the aquarium. I stopped useing that right away. I tried it in the first place because i used NovaPlus before hand, but had read about AmQuel and thought it might be worth trying. So i've been useing my extra Tetra condtioner since then, so i was wondering what you guys reconmmend using.

[TURQ64]

I'd say the bulk of wc type users here use Safe from Seachem

[discuspaul]

Yes, I believe Gary's right about Safe. Many discus-keepers use Prime exclusively though.
I've tried several - but you know what - I find TopFin, believe it or not, works just as well as any of them.
You're probably doing good-sized wcs on a reasonably frequent basis, and TopFin is the easiest on the wallet - has no odor, doesn't discolor the water, or foam up, like some others do (won't mention the name), and will save you some $$ over the longer term.

[ericatdallas]

I use sodium thiosulfate... it's cheaper and makes sense if you only have chlorine. Just make sure you get the ppm right... I would treat for 4ppm, but you can probably get away with 2ppm (according to your water quality report).

You can buy it on Aquabid or Ebay.

Some pool supply stores sell it, but I haven't been able to find it at Home Depot, Walmart, or Lowes for some reason.

How much you pay depends on how much you order.

[yim11]

I'd say the bulk of wc type users here use Safe from Seachem

+1

[ericatdallas]

Yes, I believe Gary's right about Safe. Many discus-keepers use Prime exclusively though.
I've tried several - but you know what - I find TopFin, believe it or not, works just as well as any of them.
You're probably doing good-sized wcs on a reasonably frequent basis, and TopFin is the easiest on the wallet - has no odor, doesn't discolor the water, or foam up, like some others do (won't mention the name), and will save you some $$ over the longer term.

Topfin is just sodium thiosulfate, baking soda, and water. It's actually listed on their packaging.

[discuspaul]

So.....? It works just fine at neutralizing chlorine/chloramines.

[ericatdallas]

So.....? It works just fine at neutralizing chlorine/chloramines.

Yup, that's my point. Why pay the premium for Topfin when you can buy it in chemical form and make your own.

However, this is key, it does neutralize chloramine, but ONLY by disassociating chloramine into chlorine and ammonia, and then neutralizing the chlorine. So it leaves ammonia. This is important if you have high level chloramine concentration in your tap water. Its debatable how important, b/c 4ppm chloramine does not mean 4ppm ammonia and depends on your pH and temperature.

[Len]

I use sodium thiosulfate. By far the cheapest route and that's the active ingredient in all of the dechlor products on the shelf.

[ericatdallas]

I use sodium thiosulfate. By far the cheapest route and that's the active ingredient in all of the dechlor products on the shelf.

That's not true. Safe and Prime have a different active ingredient as does Amquel Plus...

Also, there are some 'organic' dechlorinating products that use citric acid. Be careful with these because it can effect pH if the manufacturer does not formulate it correctly....

[chrisb01]

I use Stress Coat Plus - it contains Aloe Vera - as directed, AmQuel Plus - as directed, and for the plants I use Leaf Zone at half dose, with every W/C.

[discuspaul]

You fellas all have very good points, and if all you need to do is negate the chlorine from your tap water, then sodium thiosulphate is the way to go. My point was simply this: If your tap water has no ammonia, or other undesirable elements, and you're quite content to get a water conditioner right off the shelf that works effectively, for as few $ as possible over over brands, then you can save money rather than buying Prime, Safe, Amquel or whatever.

[Len]

That's not true. Safe and Prime have a different active ingredient as does Amquel Plus...



Isn't that splitting hairs? They are virtually the same chemical thiosulphate vs metabisulfite. They both work on the chlorine the same way. Bottom line though is that it is cheaper than buying a product that is marketed for the fish keeping hobby with a much larger price tag.

[ericatdallas]

Isn't that splitting hairs? They are virtually the same chemical thiosulphate vs metabisulfite. They both work on the chlorine the same way. Bottom line though is that it is cheaper than buying a product that is marketed for the fish keeping hobby with a much larger price tag.

Unless you know something I don't, Prime and Safe don't use Sodium Metabisulfate. Sodium Metabisulfate and bisulfate do not neutralize the ammonia, but you are right, works the same way as sodium thiosulfate in breaking the chloramine molecule. Another important difference is that thiosulfate doesn't require as much oxygen as the other two...

Although Seachem has a proprietary name for it, it's most likely a hydrosulfite salt or sodium hydroxymethane sulfinic acid which is what is used to neutralize the ammonia portion of it. Sodium Bisulfate along with Formaldehyde is used to produce the chemical that is the most likely candidate. Element-wise, it has sodium and sulfur just like thiosulfate.

Am I splitting hairs? I guess it depends whether you think leaving the ammonia in the tank after treatment is worth mentioning. If not, then I guess I am. For those of us that don't want excess ammonia in our tanks, it's worth knowing.

Also, I might be splitting hairs if I you think NH3 and NH4 are the same thing since it's only one hydrogen atom. Perhaps I am? But that one extra hydrogen changes things a little... just like there's a difference between O2 and O3...

Would you prefer to be in a room with CO or CO2? I prefer the latter...

I could also be wrong, in which case, I'm open to being educated on it as I'm not a chemist. I'm pretty sure thiosulfate DOES leave ammonia behind while Prime/Safe/Amquel binds it to become ammonium. This is also why pH matters. The lower the pH, the less important that ammonia is, because it turns into ammonium.

[ericatdallas]

Just so I know I'm not spouting misinformation, I found a thread that talks about it on a Reef site... I was wrong in saying ammonium (apparently this is a common misconception and it's apparently binds to become 'aminomethanesulfonate').

Here's a good thread on it...
www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1793218

[Sean Buehrle]

I've used prime since it came out and never had a problem with it, that being said I switched to safe and am glad I did.
Safe is the way to go if you have chloramines, it's very economical.

[scottthomas]

+ Safe.... works great and pretty inexpensive. Better than the junk with Aloe? what does that do? Help fish with sunburn? I have 200-300 gallon water changes sometimes and smaller bottle of safe last over a year so far. Also use it in my Ki pond

[chrisb01]

Better than the junk with Aloe? what does that do? Help fish with sunburn?

Yes!!! Hahaha... don't you ever take your fish out to the beach? :-)
I was using NovAqua till a few months ago, thinking of going back to it.
Watch out with cheap stuff, you usually get what you pay for...
Aloe helps with the slime coating, digestion, and it also helps prevent fungus and fin rot.

[LizStreithorst]

Water conditioner? What water conditioner? IMO it's way better to age your water than to add a dechorinator or God forbid, a "conditioner". What on earth is wrong with plain old unconditioned aged water? I must be missing something....

[chrisb01]

You're actually right Liz. Aged water is the best.
You know this new microwave technology, every one wants the quick cure...(including me), the proverbial 'get rich quick scheme'.
I am right now in the process of getting two huge blue plastic containers (I believe they are 55 gals. each), from one of the fish farms near me. All I need is a pick up truck and go pick them up. They have already been used for fish, so not too much cleaning and disinfecting to do. Then I can age my water.

[TURQ64]

I fully agree in theory, Liz,but in practicality, you can't 'age off' chloramines..only bind or remove them...I personally age water, RO water, and recycle water...but there's no escaping the local use or misuse of chloramines.....I use three 275g totes, and also 5 55g barrels at present..looking to ditch the barrels..

[LizStreithorst]

Forgive my apparent stupidity. I have never had to deal with chloramines so I forgot that some of us have been cursed with them.

[ericatdallas]

Also, not everyone has the room to keep storage barrels to age water.

[SeaDragon]

Thanks everyone for your comments! This has been really helpful I don't even know where to start!

[DiscusLoverJeff]

I have been using Prime for many years myself without any issues. Most of my water is RO/Tap about 80/20. I age my water 24 to 48 hours before using.

I found this interesting article from Seachem's web forum.

http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/showthread.php?t=142

[Larry Bugg]

I use Safe. I have a 330 gallon tote and 3 44 gallon Brute storage containers for aging.

[gerrard00]

I'd say the bulk of wc type users here use Safe from Seachem

+1

The 1 kilo container of Safe that I purchased in January is still going strong, so I'm a happy customer.

[Stag]

Would you prefer to be in a room with CO or CO2? I prefer the latter...

Eric, I'm guessing you got an "A" in chemistry. Carbon Monoxide will kick your but! thanks for the knowledge break down.

OP, Don't forget to to check the bottles for how many gallon the product treats. I know Seachems Safe and Prime treat an unreal amount of water similar to the base chemicals you can buy. Dechlors like Stresscoat treat much less but have aloe vera or seaweed extract that is "suppost" to act as or assist in the making of slime coat.

[SeaDragon]

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll definatly be looking into the Seachem Prime and Safe. I wish I had the space to age the water, I'll keep that in mind for the future.

[Jhhnn]

The problem with sodium thiosulfate is that more & more providers switch to chloramines all the time, and it's not like they make some big announcement when they do. Aquarists here in Denver had big problems when Denver Water switched some years ago, until they worked with the local media to get the word out.

I use prime, then age, aerate and heat the water beforehand, too. I've been buying the gallon sized jugs from Kensfish at a reasonable price, so I'm happy. I'm considering switching to safe when the current jug runs low... dunno. I treat at a lower dose than recommended, because excellent Denver Water documentation indicates that it's entirely safe to do so. It's hard to change when what I've been doing has worked flawlessly...

[ericatdallas]

Well, as previously mentioned, sodium thiosulfate will treat chloramine, it'll just leave ammonia behind. Chances are, in a properly cycled tank, it won't even be noticed.

That being said, if my city used chloramine, I would exclusively use safe/prime (I pretty much already do by using all Prime or a 50/50 mix). Thiosulfate is effective enough though that if the city did change the treatment, I wouldn't worry about it too much between the time it happened and the time I found out.

[TURQ64]

I have to disagree on this point..I lost some really nice breeder's when living in the Bay Area during a changeover to chloramine without notification...Largely depends on the chloramine dosage, I guess, but they nwere dead as a stone when I got home from work...I stopped using Sodium Thiosulfate at that time, and started using commercial preps...

[ericatdallas]

I suppose that's good anecdotal evidence. I have no experience with thiosulfate and chloramine beyond the 'theoretical' which we all know, things don't always work out that way.

Some of the things that come into play though is if your water is soft, then more of the ammonia is left after the process. Also, thiosulfate reacts slower in colder water and with chloramine. Finally, it's recommended to use more thiosulfate for chloramine than chlorine, which is another factor to consider. Since thiosulfate is so cheap, I normally treat with about 2-4x recommended dosage anyway.

One thing I did notice when buying thiosulfate was one seller claiming that thiosulfate treats 60,000 gallons... well, I think knowing the ppm is important, otherwise that number means nothing. Skimming through it, the claim is that 1 oz will treat 60,000 gallons. VERY irresponsible and dangerous. According to my calculations that treats about 0.1ppm (way lower than the average/max of virtually every city in this country).

I'm also wondering if it's due to them changing over they may have accidentally overdose... <shrug>

But don't take that as me doubting your claim... again, numbers don't always reflect reality (especially when there are a lot of factors that come into play).

Anyway, I'll definitely be using SAFE during every WC when I move to Florida (Chloramines and lots of it). I may supplement with thiosulfate just to speed up the reactions -if- I'm filling straight from the tap there.