Looking into keeping Discus!

[Miyuusha]

Hello! I'm new to this forum and have been checking around the beginner section, read through the guide and tried to gather a bit more information.

I'm a Freshwater Angelfish owner who has gotten the Discus itch and really want to keep these "little" guys.

From the information I've seen online about people keeping Discus and Angels together it is better to introduce the Discuses when they are young? I.e a smaller size, what size would that be exactly? My Angels are not fully grown yet, they aren't old enough to spawn but old enough to liplock and get cocky. I figure right now would be the last chance to introduce fish to the tank that I want to live with them as they soon will get older and more stubborn.

I live in Tokyo which has great tap water for fish keeping, the PH is 6.8 without me having to do anything and all I really have to do for the Angels is getting rid of the chemicals added to it to make it drinkable. It is no problem for me to maintain a 82F temperature in the tank, during the summer I don't even need a heater for that. I do weekly water changes of about 25% and for the Angels that is perfect but I understand the Discus are more craving than that, exactly how craving though? Is the written guides and articles accurate to real life experience? As I know with the Angelfish it is a bit so-so :P

I maintain the tank a lot, since I have a lot of plants I spend time everyday cleaning up. I also already have it in my routine to make my own fishfood, I make my own food cubes with fat free meats, fresh salmon, brine shrimp, multivitamins, fresh spinach, fish flakes and sometimes egg (and flavorless gelatin) for the Angels but they also eat regular flakes, discus food and frozen red bloodworms on special occasions.

I have a QT which is constantly running with separate filter, heater, air filtration etc.

Except for things like tank size which is clear and easy to read up on, what should I think about, especially when wanting to keep them with Angels? Does anyone know what size would be suitable to introduce them from when wanting them to be live with Angels? Would it be too cruel to keep them in a pair? Would it be insane to start of with a wild?

70107

I just can't take my eyes of this one I have in sight, but I don't want to bring it home not knowing I can care for it!

[discuspaul]

One can't precisely define "young", but for your purposes I would suggest nothing smaller than about 3.5", or 4" sub-adults, and the number of discus should be no less than 5 to alleviate pecking order aggression problems.
Don't know your tank size & how many angels you want to keep with the discus, but it seems you have done enough research to compute numbers of fish vs. tank size for bio-load reckoning.

It also appears you're into a frequent & reasonably thorough tank maintenance routine, so why not up your wcs to at least twice weekly.
And to be on the more cautious side, stay away from the wilds at least for now, and go with domestics. Put the discus in first, do a proper QT, and then introduce the angels.
Hope this helps.

[Maria Ashton]

I understand that angels need to be babies when you add them to a discus tank, I have two babies in with my 13 discus but I am considering moving them. They are greedy eaters in comparison with discus and be bullies, both factors stress discus.

Wilds are amazing but I am giving myself a year of discus before embarking on that adventure, I would try not to mix wilds with domestic as they often carry different pathogens.

Good luck, let us know how you get on

[Miyuusha]

One can't precisely define "young", but for your purposes I would suggest nothing smaller than about 3.5", or 4" sub-adults, and the number of discus should be no less than 5 to alleviate pecking order aggression problems.
Don't know your tank size & how many angels you want to keep with the discus, but it seems you have done enough research to compute numbers of fish vs. tank size for bio-load reckoning.

It also appears you're into a frequent & reasonably thorough tank maintenance routine, so why not up your wcs to at least twice weekly.
And to be on the more cautious side, stay away from the wilds at least for now, and go with domestics. Put the discus in first, do a proper QT, and then introduce the angels.
Hope this helps.

Thank you for taking time to answer!
With things like bio-load and maintenance I feel pretty confident that I do what I owe to the fish, they bring out the hard core mother instincts in me :)

Is the aggression and pecking toward their own or between the Discus and Angels? I've just heard rumors that adding an adult discus isn't very clever and to me that makes sense as with Angels it is clear what fish they've grown up with and which they haven't.

Have I got this right, even if it's the Angel's tank they should be removed and then perhaps preferably I should re-aquascape the tank? To throw the Angels off a bit? The way I was thinking at first was keeping Discus in the separate QT and then add them to the maintank where the Angels are already kept. But you recommend I do the QT on the Discus in the display tank?

[Miyuusha]

I understand that angels need to be babies when you add them to a discus tank, I have two babies in with my 13 discus but I am considering moving them. They are greedy eaters in comparison with discus and be bullies, both factors stress discus.

Wilds are amazing but I am giving myself a year of discus before embarking on that adventure, I would try not to mix wilds with domestic as they often carry different pathogens.

Good luck, let us know how you get on

Thank you for the reponse!
This makes me a little worried, my fish aren't babies anymore :( but not old enough to spawn. So to me they're still kids.

Are they bullies during feeding time or always? I am pretty strict with the feeding, I feed them individually one by one to keep track of how much they eat and I was planning on doing that with the discus too. Are they over all a very nervous fish? It sounds like it. Domestic sounds safer so I will go with that if I decide to give it a try, I still feel torn.
If I was able to have a bigger tank then I would add a separator and always keep them like that but space doesn't allow that.. if I end up having to get rid of the Discus it would break my heart :(

[Maria Ashton]

There are people who keep angels with discus quite happily, a few on here but I have just moved mine to my other community tank. I found one was a bully sometimes at feeding time and sometimes just randomly, it would pick on fish five times its size.

Re feeding I would try and spread the food out over the front of the tank so that all fish had a chance of something.

How many discus are you considering? Ideally a group of six is what most people recommend, I think each needs around 10 gallons to reach full size thats without other fish. Discus are highly addictive, I would be devastated if I had to give mine up

[discuspaul]

Thank you for taking time to answer!
With things like bio-load and maintenance I feel pretty confident that I do what I owe to the fish, they bring out the hard core mother instincts in me :)

Is the aggression and pecking toward their own or between the Discus and Angels? I've just heard rumors that adding an adult discus isn't very clever and to me that makes sense as with Angels it is clear what fish they've grown up with and which they haven't.

Have I got this right, even if it's the Angel's tank they should be removed and then perhaps preferably I should re-aquascape the tank? To throw the Angels off a bit? The way I was thinking at first was keeping Discus in the separate QT and then add them to the maintank where the Angels are already kept. But you recommend I do the QT on the Discus in the display tank?

You shouldn't see any real aggression between the discus and angels - any aggression would be between the discus themselves establishing their pecking order. But you may see some competition for food - angels vs. discus -so I suggest your angels should be smaller than the discus, but not babies.

The discus should be in the main tank first imo, to allow them to settle in and become comfortable, and preclude any potential intimidation by the angels. For QT purposes, the angels should be placed in a separate tank - then I suggest you allow a couple of weeks or more for the discus to become comfortable with their new environment. After that, introduce one of the discus to the angel tank and observe for several weeks. If all seems well after a period of time, you may place the angels and the one discus into your main tank.
If a problem develops in the angel tank, then you risk losing just the one discus, and you would need to treat the angel tank.
I gather your main tank currently houses the angels, and when they're removed, before adding the discus to that tank, you should give the tank a thorough cleaning and seed it with, for example, a seeded sponge obtained from the discus supplier. This is a safety measure, in the event some undesirable pathogens from the angels have remained housed in the tank.

This may seem like a lot overly careful attention, and perhaps that is so. You could, if you wish, run the risk of just placing your discus directly in with the angels from the outset, and take your chances, but it certainly would be a disaster if you lost all your discus by doing so.

Alternatively, you may do the QT the way you are thinking, i.e. leave the angels, as is, in the main tank, place your new discus in a 'QT' tank, and reverse the plan - introduce one discus to the main angel tank and see how that works out. I simply feel that this approach creates more stressful conditions for the discus - attempting to settle them in to 2 separate tanks over a short period, and introducing them into the main tank, where the angels are fully settled and could be cause the discus even more stress by intimidation.
Excuse the length of this response - just wanted to explain my view.
Best of luck.

[Miyuusha]

There are people who keep angels with discus quite happily, a few on here but I have just moved mine to my other community tank. I found one was a bully sometimes at feeding time and sometimes just randomly, it would pick on fish five times its size.

Re feeding I would try and spread the food out over the front of the tank so that all fish had a chance of something.

How many discus are you considering? Ideally a group of six is what most people recommend, I think each needs around 10 gallons to reach full size thats without other fish. Discus are highly addictive, I would be devastated if I had to give mine up

Yeah, I've also heard that it's very possible. I wouldn't say that my Angels are.. angels. They pick on each other and they can be rough but to me that is normal and under control, that's just how they are. But perhaps to a Discus it's different.. It's so hard for me to imagine that the Angels would care about any other fish since I've never seen them do that but I've also never had any fish in there with them that matched their size.

I would make sure they all get food of course, if it's not a bigger deal than finding a way to assure that then I don't feel too nervous about that anymore.

I was thinking 2 or 3 tops but most seem to recommend 5 - 6. Though the same recommendations are made with Angels and it's not 100% accurate in my opinion, I have Angels that have thrived as a pair or just 3 of them so I always make sure to hear from people that have some experience in keeping different numbers. It is not possible for me to keep 6 discus in a Japanese apartment :( not when I have to fit a husband too.. :(

[discuspaul]

To add to my above last post and yours below, yes you may readily keep just 2 or 3 angels without aggression incidence, but keeping just 2 or 3 discus quite often results in serious aggression problems between the discus, which could be very stressful for one or two of them - perhaps resulting in fatality(ies).

[Miyuusha]

To add to my above last post and yours below, yes you may readily keep just 2 or 3 angels without aggression incidence, but keeping just 2 or 3 discus quite often results in serious aggression problems between the discus, which could be very stressful for one or two of them - perhaps resulting in fatality(ies).

Ah so it's between them, do they pair off like the Angels do? So getting less than 5-6 would be very risky in other words..

[discuspaul]

Yes, keeping less than 5-6 would very likely pose a risk, and if nothing more serious, the least that would probably occur would be one or two very unhappy discus - leading to stress and a weakening of the immune system in those.
And yes, they eventually pair off like angels do, and if the pair is not isolated in their own tank and decide to spawn, then they would display a great deal of protective instinct of their eggs &/or spawn. However, that does not normally result in any fatalities - the others soon learn to stay away from the near vicinity of the breeding pair.

[stephcps]

Your other option would be to look for an already formed pair. A pair will live happily with just the 2 and have no quarrels (well mostly!).
I kept angels with my discus with no issues. There were some feeding related happenings at first. But I started feeding angels at one end and then the discus on the other. After that it never seemed to be an issue. As long as the angel knows it is going to be fed, and is fed first....it will leave the others alone.

[discuspaul]

Good commentary, steph - glad you added it.

[Miyuusha]

Your other option would be to look for an already formed pair. A pair will live happily with just the 2 and have no quarrels (well mostly!).
I kept angels with my discus with no issues. There were some feeding related happenings at first. But I started feeding angels at one end and then the discus on the other. After that it never seemed to be an issue. As long as the angel knows it is going to be fed, and is fed first....it will leave the others alone.

Now that's an idea! A formed pair will be older Discus though right, I kept hearing that the Discus shouldn't be too old/big but perhaps that doesn't really matter. I'm going to look around for a pair, that sounds like the best solution and I don't mind that. Then all fish could be happy :)

The feeding really doesn't make me nervous at all if it's just about the Angels being greedy, I know my Angels pretty well and caring for them is familiar so that I'll work out.

[stephcps]

Not neccessarily old just mature. The pair I just lost to this d**n snowstorm formed quite early. They were not a good match as far as genetics, but would spawn occassionally in the tank and even get free swimming. I got them when they were 4 inches and were always in a tank with angels with no problems. At first there were other discus, but I lost all the others to a heater malfunction. They were totally fine in the tank with the angels and just the 2 of them.

Just be warned....discus are addictive like no other fish I have owned.

[Miyuusha]

Thank you all for the answers!

I'm chickening out whenever I'm not on this forum. I waaaaant Discus but I am so torn. For now I am backing out of it, I got the new tank set up and the Angels are settling in. One of my little Angels are currently a bit bullied by the others and requires extra attention so that I know he's eating etc but.. it's hard to ignore the Discus itch.