Fluky fry - What to do?

[DonMD]

I recently posted pics of fry from a pair I got from Hans. Now I've got to figure what to do with them. Here are some pics - these guys are all active, apparently healthy, eating up a storm, etc. They went free swimming Sept. 19, so they're coming up on two months old. They are about 1.5 inches in length. Parents are blue and red turqs.

http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/rr204/dellenberger/IMG_1582.jpg

http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/rr204/dellenberger/IMG_1585.jpg

http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/rr204/dellenberger/IMG_1586.jpg

http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/rr204/dellenberger/IMG_1587.jpg

http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/rr204/dellenberger/IMG_1588.jpg

Why do I think they may have flukes? Because in my main display tank, where I keep the parents, all my fish show symptoms, occasional flashing and some fin shaking. I have not scoped them. Have I seen any of the fry flash? Maybe, hard to say.

So, here's the question. Have you ever been in this situation? What did you do? Should I sell the fish? Try to PP them prior to moving them? (I've had definitely mixed results in the past with PP, I can tell you!) Or just disclose to the potential buyer and set a lower price? I have tried in the past to eradicate the flukes from my system, but I don't think it worked.

In any case, I intend to keep a handfull of these fry to raise myself, but at the rate they're growing, I'll need to move some fairly soon. Anyone been in this situation before? Thanks, -Don

[RichT]

Hi Don

The easiest way is to cull one and take a look at multiple gill sections.
That's the only way to know for sure.

Rich

[DonMD]

Hmmm, it's hard to believe that on this forum I'm the only one who's had fluky fry. I'd love to know what others have done in this situation . . . Just asking . . .

I would cull one and analyze, but lacking a scope that's not possible. Maybe I'll send one down to Virginia Tech.

[mmorris]

No flukey fry here that I have ever been aware of, but I have had fish with flukes. I think many of us have. You might contact a biologist at a local college and see if he or she is interested in having a look.

[Vern Archer]

Hmmm, it's hard to believe that on this forum I'm the only one who's had fluky fry. I'd love to know what others have done in this situation . . . Just asking . . .

I would cull one and analyze, but lacking a scope that's not possible. Maybe I'll send one down to Virginia Tech.

Hi Don, usually with flukes present in a spawn it shows up very early with the fry dieing in significant numbers in the first two to three weeks. I would confirm with a microscope, cull the fry and start over. Then clean the parents and the only effective method in my experience is the Andrew Soh method with 3 - 30 minute treatments, 4 days apart, using formaldehyde moving the fish each time to a fresh tank.. Breeding discus that have flukes is a waste of time and will result in stunted fish with gill deformities, if they survive the fluke treatments. Keep in mind the fluke worm is actually eating the frys gill and slowly suffocating them so the only humane thing to do is to euthanize.
As for these guys they look to be older and I doubt from their colour you have any flukes but a microscope would tell you for sure. The fry will have a very high resperation, darken, and be flashing and there would be many deaths. v

[Samsmobb]

Yeah I would disclose to the buyer just because what if they got other discus as well? Would hate for a catastrophe to happen :/ if you did sell what might you be asking? Maybe some on here might have better suggestions but all that work you put in for nothing would really be unfortunate.

[DonMD]

Hi Don, usually with flukes present in a spawn it shows up very early with the fry dieing in significant numbers in the first two to three weeks. I would confirm with a microscope, cull the fry and start over. Then clean the parents and the only effective method in my experience is the Andrew Soh method with 3 - 30 minute treatments, 4 days apart, using formaldehyde moving the fish each time to a fresh tank.. Breeding discus that have flukes is a waste of time and will result in stunted fish with gill deformities, if they survive the fluke treatments. Keep in mind the fluke worm is actually eating the frys gill and slowly suffocating them so the only humane thing to do is to euthanize.
As for these guys they look to be older and I doubt from their colour you have any flukes but a microscope would tell you for sure. The fry will have a very high resperation, darken, and be flashing and there would be many deaths. v

Thanks, Vern. I had always thought that if the parents had flukes, the fry would suffer, as you write. But these fry are all really healthy and growing like mad. They're not even 2 months old and they're almost 2 inches long.

I have worked in the past with Stephen Smith at Virginia Tech's veterinary school, and I sent him an email just yesterday. He replied: I would prefer to work with live fish for diagnostic purposes, so you could send your fish next Tuesday by overnight express for arrival on Wednesday. The cost is $65.00 per clinical case, and that would include necropsy of the fish, bacterial cultures, parasitology and histopathology. I can include up to three fish per clinical case charge.

$65 bucks is not chump change, but I think in my case it's worth it, so I just have to figure out how to get a live fish down to him. Shouldn't be too hare.

Thanks everyone else for your responses. I'll let you know what VATech finds.

[DonMD]

Sent off two runts to VA Tech last night, first time I've ever shipped fish. It'll be interesting to see if 1) they get there alive, and 2) what health issues they have. I'll post results as they come in.

[mmorris]

Best of luck Don. :)

[Rummy]

Has the lab said anything yet?

Anik

[Jason K.]

hey don, did you have any losses at 4 or 5 weeks with these guy's?

[DonMD]

hey don, did you have any losses at 4 or 5 weeks with these guy's? None at all.

[DonMD]

So I've had the answer from Stephen Smith, Dept. Biomedical Sciences and Pathobiology
VA/MD Regional College of Veterinary Medicine
Duck Pond Drive
Virginia Tech
Blacksburg, VA 24061-0442

Here's what he had to say:


Fish arrived alive around 11:30 AM today. I have now completed the necropsy of your two discus, evaluated gill and skin wet mounts, collected samples from the posterior kidneys for bacterial growth, and preserved the remaining tissues in formalin for histopathology. You were absolutely correct in your presumption of a fluke (monogenean) infestation. Both discus has a massive fluke infection on their gills, with an additional small number of flukes on their skin. The gills showed gross proliferative of the tissues and a thickening of the gill mucus.
You can treat these parasites with either salt or formalin, though it might be easier on your fish to use salt since their gills are clearly compromised. I would raise the salt content of your tank water to 1.5 parts per thousand, and keep it at that level for at least 5-7 days. Your discus should tolerate the increased salt level with no problem, though some plants may not do well.
I should have the histopathology back by Friday, and we'll see if that changes/modifies the final diagnosis. SAS

This raises some questions for me. 1. How successful will I be in raising fluky fry? Right now, these fry are stunningly beautiful, beginning to color up very well, eating voraciously, haven't lost one yet. Is it like raising flea-bitten puppies? The fleas are a nuisance, but not a killer?
2. I wonder how many adult discus sold as being clean are really infected with flukes? If you sit and watch my adults in the display, you'd have to wait at least 30 minutes before seeing any sign of flashing, they rarely do. Especially when they see me coming with food, or are otherwise excited, they disregard any skin irritation.
And finally, 3. what should I do with these fluky fry? Grow them out? Sell them? Hmmm. Right now I'm thinking I might make another try at cleaning my system out, which would mean tearing down everything for months. I'll have to sit on that for awhile. In the meantime, I think I'll start a new thread on how to RAISE BEAUTIFUL FLUKY DISCUS!

[Vee]

Thanks for posting.

My humble opinion (I've never raised fry and have only been a discus keeper for 11 months):

If you are thinking of culling, I would cull all except the best specimens that could fit in your current grow-out tanks. If they survive and thrive, I would then treat with Anti-Fluke. I used this drug successfully when I first received my young discus. It's a long treatment of 21 days at 80 degrees. I changed 50% of the water every day and redosed what I took out.

[TURQ64]

How about a cheap 'scope from Amscope, and a jug of PP for a dip, Don??..Then off to the salt..JMO, but there's cheap 'scopes that'll definitely make spotting the flukes easier than the lab...

[jimg]

The flukes are much worse than fleas on a dog. they open passages for bacteria, they stress the fish greatly, they destroy the gills etc etc.
I have never had luck with formalin, supaverm, anti fluke life bearer or pp alone on flukes
I had many batches of fry with flukes and tried every supposed cure. My answer is if they have flukes cull them.
if you want to try to save them I have had the best results 2 ways with prazi powder constant for 21 days, knocks them back quite a bit, or with pp then flubendazole and dmso
One thing I have never completed though was numerous salt baths.
I never had any adults show any flashing or any signs of flukes when they in fact had them
I torn down every tank I had and sterilized and wiped out filters and switched tanks between treatments. after about a year experimenting with hundreds of fry I finally got rid of every fluke.
Then the wilds had them!

[DonMD]

How about a cheap 'scope from Amscope, and a jug of PP for a dip, Don??..Then off to the salt..JMO, but there's cheap 'scopes that'll definitely make spotting the flukes easier than the lab...

I've asked our friends at NADA to see if they can get someone to give a workshop on how to use a scope at the convention in Atlanta. I hope they can pull it together, I would really like some hands-on training on how to use a microscope and diagnose the results. As for PP, I've tried that route with varying success. But I've never been able to clean out my whole system. Thanks for your input, Ironman.