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johnm
11-06-2011, 12:24 PM
Just out of curiosity, how important is using r/o water to keep wilds if your intent is not for breeding purposes? Is softer water more important than ph or viceversa? Thanks in advance for any input.

Discus Origins
11-06-2011, 01:51 PM
It is not necessary, but your wilds will show colors better and be more 'comfortable' in softer water.

johnm
11-06-2011, 09:32 PM
thanks mark. I've often wondered how water that contains virtually no minerals be desirable to wilds. One would think that a higher tds or mineral content would be healthier.

Discus Origins
11-06-2011, 09:42 PM
Well biologically even though the amazon river is very low in conductivity the essential minerals are available for fish to absorb. High TDS tapwater just contains 99% of what the fish doesn't need but as long as you keep water quality high the fish will be pretty happy.

3dees
11-07-2011, 10:32 AM
7017970180
It is not necessary, but your wilds will show colors better and be more 'comfortable' in softer water.

while this might be true, there are exceptions. I'm pretty happy with my wilds. pure tap water. 7.6 ph and a little on the hard side.

Discus Origins
11-07-2011, 10:48 AM
They look nice and you're right there are exceptions. But I give advice based on generalizations ;)

ExReefer
11-07-2011, 10:58 AM
as long as you keep water quality high the fish will be pretty happy.

Bingo! This is pretty much all that matters IMO. I've kept wild discus and I currently keep wild Altum Angelfish in my tap water. I will admit that my tap water TDS is relatively low - 130-150 ppm, but PH is around 7.6-7.8.

I've never kept Heckles, but based on how well my Altums responded to the (slow) transition over to tap water, I'm betting Heckles would be fine as well.

Rummy
11-07-2011, 11:00 AM
I take it as some of us thrive in the cold weather and others prefer warm, tropical weather.
I hope I am not totally off on this.

Anik

TURQ64
11-07-2011, 11:18 AM
I take it as some of us thrive in the cold weather and others prefer warm, tropical weather.
I hope I am not totally off on this.

Anik

No offense meant, but you are totally off on this..Anthromorphism doesn't fly with me..We are warm blooded mammals, and fish are cold blooded...

And my take..They'll live in most any condition as they are adaptable, but...It has seemed to me over my years keeping them that they seem to thrive better in really low, soft water...
(my Heckel's are generally in 3.9 or lower...very tannic..)

Rummy
11-07-2011, 11:25 AM
Thanks for clarifying.

Anik

Larry Bugg
11-07-2011, 11:39 AM
No offense meant, but you are totally off on this..Anthromorphism doesn't fly with me..We are warm blooded mammals, and fish are cold blooded...

And my take..They'll live in most any condition as they are adaptable, but...It has seemed to me over my years keeping them that they seem to thrive better in really low, soft water...
(my Heckel's are generally in 3.9 or lower...very tannic..)

I agree. There may be exceptions but as a generalization as both Mark and Gary have stated, I believe a wild fish of any kind will do best in water that is close to what it came from.

YSS
11-07-2011, 01:41 PM
I agree. There may be exceptions but as a generalization as both Mark and Gary have stated, I believe a wild fish of any kind will do best in water that is close to what it came from.

Wouldn't the same aplly to domestic strains as well? After all, a discus is a discus.

Sean Buehrle
11-07-2011, 01:59 PM
Well biologically even though the amazon river is very low in conductivity the essential minerals are available for fish to absorb. High TDS tapwater just contains 99% of what the fish doesn't need but as long as you keep water quality high the fish will be pretty happy.

Couldnt a fish get needed minerals from its food?

Samsmobb
11-07-2011, 02:25 PM
I'd like to ask that too, I just got an RO system and fresh trace but couldn't a fish get it's needed minerals from it's food? I'm feeding live black worms so more minerals from flakes pellets FD or frozen etc or is it highly recommended to use fresh trace?

Larry Bugg
11-07-2011, 02:31 PM
Wouldn't the same aplly to domestic strains as well? After all, a discus is a discus.

Probably to some extent but more so with a wilds since they are coming straight from the low PH/soft water. Domestics over the years have been breed and kept in varying PH/hardness and from what I have experienced are more tolerant to the differences.

I would use breeding to support this. I believe if you get discus to breed they must be pretty satisfied/adjusted to the water conditions they are kept in. We see evidence of domestics breeding regulary in all kind of water parameters. While there may be exceptions, we generally find wild discus being breed in low PH/soft water. Quite often when you are reading accounts of breeding wilds it is referenced that adjusting the water parameters played a huge role in getting them to breed.

Discus Origins
11-07-2011, 02:54 PM
I can't cite a source off the top of my head, but I remember the reading differences between the way a fish and mammal process nutrition to be different. Mammals are much more efficient in processing nutrients in food and supplying the cells thru the blood/cell barrier where fish have more primitive digestive tracts and are more efficient absorbing certain nutrients thru the water/skin barrier.

So yes nutrition in food is important but for fish there should be calcium, magnesium, etc (essential minerals) in the water, just don't need all the non-essentials that make TDS high.

3dees
11-07-2011, 05:58 PM
on the subject of breeding, I was surprised to see eggs in my tank and posted pics somewhere here. I have seen eggs on about 5 or 6 times since. a day later there were gone, but just the fact that they produced eggs in my tap water was kind of weird. what I'm asking is if my fish are laying eggs, would'nt that indicate that they are happy and healthy. I'm not trying to argue the fact that wilds do not ever need RO. my water is probably quite different than Florida water. it's just that some people who want to try wilds, decide against it because they are told that they need soft, aged water mixed with RO. for breeding I totally agree, but for a show tank, tap water can work.

TURQ64
11-07-2011, 06:30 PM
It just seems to always boil down to the fact that they are Cichlids; they prefer to grow big, pick fights with anything around, even their mates, and lay eggs..They will do all of this in about any acclimation, they just seem to pull off all of the above in softer water better..Less disease for the fighting, better healing, better fertility and hatch rates..it just goes on.JMO

Darrell Ward
11-07-2011, 06:59 PM
I can't cite a source off the top of my head, but I remember the reading differences between the way a fish and mammal process nutrition to be different. Mammals are much more efficient in processing nutrients in food and supplying the cells thru the blood/cell barrier where fish have more primitive digestive tracts and are more efficient absorbing certain nutrients thru the water/skin barrier.

So yes nutrition in food is important but for fish there should be calcium, magnesium, etc (essential minerals) in the water, just don't need all the non-essentials that make TDS high.

Yep. I've seen people try to argue that fish get all the minerals they need from food. Apparently, some people must have flunked biology in school.