tell me about 'water softening' - chemical impact

[shoveltrash]

I have searched & searched here and elsewhere, but cannot find info on potassium chloride water softening for aquarium use. now, I know that RO water is preferable to cut 'liquid rock water'......but I'm still curious about this. does KCl impact pH? are the minerals harmful?
isn't it preferable to sodium-based water softened water???

the reason I ask: I bought my home with an already installed water softening system (salt-based). the only way to bypass it is to use well water that is piped to my barn. needless to say, not really convenient. I am seriously considering switching to KCl for softening, but thought it best to ask since I have not found the info I wanted.

thanks in advance :)
Trish

*note* this topic/thread title changed per 2ndhandPat's suggestion :)

[Sean Buehrle]

I have searched & searched here and elsewhere, but cannot find info on potassium chloride water softening for aquarium use. now, I know that RO water is preferable to cut 'liquid rock water'......but I'm still curious about this. does KCl impact pH? are the minerals harmful?
isn't it preferable to sodium-based water softened water???

the reason I ask: I bought my home with an already installed water softening system (salt-based). the only way to bypass it is to use well water that is piped to my barn. needless to say, not really convenient. I am seriously considering switching to KCl for softening, but thought it best to ask since I have not found the info I wanted.

thanks in advance :)
Trish

I have no answer to your question but want to know how hard your well water is.
There are several people around here that have well water that could possibly give you some good info.

Secondhandpat is one that comes to mind, she keeps wild discus and I'm pretty sure she uses well water along with ro.

If she doesnt get in this thread send her a pm.

[jarret8x]

I am on a well a and have a softener. I use just the regular salt with no I'll effects 8 months later.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

[shoveltrash]

I am on a well a and have a softener. I use just the regular salt with no I'll effects 8 months later so jarret8x, your Discus are ok with salt-softened water?
is there a way to measure how much sodium is IN the softened water???


I have no answer to your question but want to know how hard your well water is. me too! LOLOL 'went yesterday to the LPS, they didn't have the API GH/KH test kit :(. then I went online and found it, but heck I'm not gonna pay $8 shipping for a $5 kit! so I'll be making a trip to the LFS (45 min drive) sometime this week.......
<sigh>
the more I learn, the more I *need*

SecondhandPat are you out there? ;)
(off to figure out how to "pm", I'm very low-tech)

[shoveltrash]

ps - the reason my house has a water softening system direct-plumbed to the well is that apparently the prior owner lost appliances due to severe mineral deposit build-up.

[Second Hand Pat]

I have no answer to your question but want to know how hard your well water is.
There are several people around here that have well water that could possibly give you some good info.

Secondhandpat is one that comes to mind, she keeps wild discus and I'm pretty sure she uses well water along with ro.

If she doesnt get in this thread send her a pm.

Thanks Sean and I do have a well but not a softener. Trish, can you bypass the softener if you feel the need?

[Second Hand Pat]

ps - the reason my house has a water softening system direct-plumbed to the well is that apparently the prior owner lost appliances due to severe mineral deposit build-up.

Well, makes bypassing the softener a little interesting.

Trish, perhaps a more useful question is what folks are using in their softeners.

[shoveltrash]

Trish, perhaps a more useful question is what folks are using in their softeners.
ok! I guess I can change the title here?
THANKS! :D

[Second Hand Pat]

Not sure you can change the title but see what people have to offer like Jarret did in post #3

ok, I will quit spamming your thread ;)

[lipadj46]

I'm not sure replacing the Mg and Ca ions with the Na (what water softeners do) ion will have any effect positive or negative on fish. As far as Na vs K they are similar and will not effect pH. You can experiment with cheap discus say from aquabid and see how they do or get a small RO system and use partial RO water.

[shoveltrash]

I'm already in the "experimentation" phase due to initial ignorance <ducks head in shame>. my leetle semi-stunted LFS Discus seem to be fine in my softened water so far, after several months (I've had Angelfish in this water for over a year now & they've done great). I guess my REAL question is if K is less harmful than Na???? or is there no difference whatsoever? my plants sure don't like the Na, they've slowly melted......

and I tried to change the title, but it didn't work :(. "spamming" Pat? I'm just thankful you have taken the time to read & post here!

ultimately my plan is to get a larger tank, and do things RIGHT, with some quality Discus (no juvies though).

[Second Hand Pat]

Nah Trish, I just talk to much. Seems to me if your PBs are fine in the current water you are good to go. :)

[Discus Origins]

Home water softener systems using salt replacement should not be used for fish long term. It's made to take out calcium/magnesium to decrease hard water stains, increase efficiency of soap or detergent, etc. Ca and Mg are both necessary to help with osmoregulation of fish and important minerals for juvie growout.

In your special case if you do not have access to regular tap water it may be a good idea to add essential minerals back in, several products are available for that purpose.

[afriend]

I have kept discus successfully using well water for many years. Before setting up my tank I made some measurements, recorded them in a log book, and then set up an automated water treatment plant. The following is a summary of what I accomplished.

Well water parameters before any treatment: GH = 180 ppm, KH = 160 ppm, PH = 7.8 (before ageing), PH = 8.5 (after ageing)

Well water after water softner (salt based): GH = less than 10 ppm, KH = 160 ppm, PH = 7.8 (before ageing), PH = 8.5 (after ageing)

Well water after water softner and RO filter: GH = less than 10 ppm, KH = less than 10 ppm, PH = 5.6 (after ageing)


I called the manufacturer of my RO filter and asked them if I should use straight well water or water softner water for my RO unit and they said that I should definitely use the water softner water because it would allow the RO membrane to last a lot longer.

Then I began experimenting with the RO water (after ageing). I found out that the PH was not very stable. Very slight changes (such as placing my hand in the water) would cause the PH to change considerably. So I experimented with different percentages of straight well water mixed back in with the RO water. I settled with 20% straight well water mixed back in with the RO water and came up with a PH = 7.2, KH = 30 ppm, GH = 30 ppm.

I've been using this mixture for several years and have successfully raised discus from 3.5 inches up to 6.5+ inches. However, I know nothing about raising discus smaller than 3.5 inches.

[lipadj46]

Home water softener systems using salt replacement should not be used for fish long term. It's made to take out calcium/magnesium to decrease hard water stains, increase efficiency of soap or detergent, etc. Ca and Mg are both necessary to help with osmoregulation of fish and important minerals for juvie growout.

In your special case if you do not have access to regular tap water it may be a good idea to add essential minerals back in, several products are available for that purpose.

I wonder how efficient these things are? My assumption is that they leave some Ca and Mg in the water maybe inamounts comparable to people with very soft water, not sure if that is a valid assumption though. You could always add a little GH booster if worried.

[shoveltrash]

I have kept discus successfully using well water for many years. Before setting up my tank I made some measurements, recorded them in a log book, and then set up an automated water treatment plant. The following is a summary of what I accomplished.

Well water parameters before any treatment: GH = 180 ppm, KH = 160 ppm, PH = 7.8 (before ageing), PH = 8.5 (after ageing)

Well water after water softner (salt based): GH = less than 10 ppm, KH = 160 ppm, PH = 7.8 (before ageing), PH = 8.5 (after ageing)

Well water after water softner and RO filter: GH = less than 10 ppm, KH = less than 10 ppm, PH = 5.6 (after ageing)
ah! this kind of info is invaluable!!! I'm thinking your water is probably a lot like mine - I'll be getting the GH/KH kit asap, and to my own *log book*. this really appeals to my OCD nature LOL.


Home water softener systems using salt replacement should not be used for fish long term. It's made to take out calcium/magnesium to decrease hard water stains, increase efficiency of soap or detergent, etc. Ca and Mg are both necessary to help with osmoregulation of fish and important minerals for juvie growout.

In your special case if you do not have access to regular tap water it may be a good idea to add essential minerals back in, several products are available for that purpose.

I wonder how efficient these things are? My assumption is that they leave some Ca and Mg in the water maybe inamounts comparable to people with very soft water, not sure if that is a valid assumption though. You could always add a little GH booster if worried.I think I will be calling the water softening company tomorrow (they still provide service), and ask them about the Ca & Mg.

realistically, I should probably invest in a RO system installed in my kitchen, and cut the softened water with the RO, possibly adding 'GH booster' (? need to research this?). <big wistful sigh> man, it's so frustrating that the only way I can get straight well water is to go to my HORSE BARN :(.





Nah Trish, I just talk to much. Seems to me if your PBs are fine in the current water you are good to go. thanks for the vote of confidence - and since I'm *new* here I'd never accuse anyone of talking too much! I'm just appreciative that folks here "talk" to me at all LOLOL.

[afriend]

ah! this kind of info is invaluable!!! I'm thinking your water is probably a lot like mine - I'll be getting the GH/KH kit asap, and to my own *log book*. this really appeals to my OCD nature LOL.

I think I will be calling the water softening company tomorrow (they still provide service), and ask them about the Ca & Mg.

realistically, I should probably invest in a RO system installed in my kitchen, and cut the softened water with the RO, possibly adding 'GH booster' (? need to research this?). <big wistful sigh> man, it's so frustrating that the only way I can get straight well water is to go to my HORSE BARN :(.




thanks for the vote of confidence - and since I'm *new* here I'd never accuse anyone of talking too much! I'm just appreciative that folks here "talk" to me at all LOLOL.

RO units generally do not produce RO water very fast. I would suggest that you determine what you need to do to the water before you get an RO unit. Remember that you need enough water to make the necessary changes. So estimate how much water you will need and then think about getting the unit that will produce water at the rate you need.

Paul

[shoveltrash]

hi Paul - yep, after researching RO units til my eyes crossed I realized that I'd have to get something that produces a LOT of water (esp if I'm considering adding another larger tank). but I'm still confused by it, because I am NOT a plumber, no way I'm gonna install something like this! http://cosgan.de/images/midi/konfus/c020.gif

see...........what I was HOPING is that some 'expert' would say: "change your softening system over to KCl, and that'll make everything perfect" http://cosgan.de/images/midi/frech/c035.gif

[lipadj46]

Installing it is not that difficult, they make installation kits where you can just tap into your water line and drain pipe (assuming you are not going to use the waste water) easy peazy.

[afriend]

I agree with lipadj46. The installation of an RO unit is really quite simple. Also, be aware that a pressure booster pump will probably be necessary to get the production rate quoted by the manufacturer. What the pressure booster pump does is to increase the pressure of the supply water to the input of the RO unit. The production rate of most RO units are given in gpd (gallons per day). You can purchase RO units and the materials necessary for installation at home improvment centers like Home Depot.

[Dennis The Mennis]

So, is there any real difference between sodium chloride (salt) or potassium chloride? I have a whole house water filter system too.I started out using the potassium chloride, but switched over to salt. Salt is about $5 a bag and PC is about $15...

[shoveltrash]

Dennis thanks for the post! so, do you use your salt-softened water in your aquarium(s)?

btw, just the *idea* of me trying to perform plumbing work is SCARY!!! but good to know about the pressure booster pump - I may make some calls to a few plumbers ;)

[Dennis The Mennis]

This is the system we have in our house. http://www.puronics.com/product/24/Terminator-IQ-Series.html
I use the water straight from the tap into the fish tank. It removes all chlorine and chloramines.

[Niblet]

Hi, I just posted a question in Water Works about "iron bacteria, water softeners, and sodium"....just hoping someone can answer about proper/safe levels of sodium and calcium for discus. More details in the thread. Sorry for inserting here, but I am just learning my way around! Thanks, Fran

[shoveltrash]

hi Fran - I have since changed my entire water setup, to straight RO. my cr@ppy well water (& inability to bypass the whole house softening system) made this my best choice. I too would be interested in knowing safe levels of Na & Ca.....although I think that Ca levels are ok so long as they are consistent. however calcium buildup would happen with high levels imho. not sure about Na? I add RO Right to my RO water to buffer it (keeping pH around 7 or so), and a bit of Discus Essentials for minerals.
welcome to the forum! :)