What’s in a name? Pigeons and Leopards and Flamingos, OH MY...

[Dennis The Mennis]

What do all these names mean? Is there some sort of way to really tell? Sometimes it might be the color. Sometimes it might be the patterns. Sometimes it might be the genes. Sometimes it just seems like names are made up just to be different. Is that red turq red with blue stripes, or blue with red stripes? I've never heard of a turq red...lol

Now I realize that some of these large hatcheries have invested a bunch of time and money developing these beautiful fish for us. They utilize their own names for recognition. Piwowrski and Stendker are perfect examples of that. If I have a like pair of Stendker's breed, ethically, I should call them something else. I shouldn't sell fish I bred under their name. So, how do I identify my fry as being from their line? Or, more importantly, how can I tell what the line is of my fish?

So how are we to really make sense of all this? Are there no guidelines? Is there any way to keep track of this? Has anyone ever tried? Kind of a pedigree for discus. Are we so far along that making any sense of this is no longer feasible?

[Skip]

dennis.. breeding a batch and calling then STENDKER Blue Diamonds is the name of the Pedigree.... so there is nothing wrong with their name..

[LizStreithorst]

dennis.. breeding a batch and calling then STENDKER Blue Diamonds is the name of the Pedigree.... so there is nothing wrong with their name..

I must stongly disagree, Skip. If you didn't breed said fry you have no right to claim the name of the breeder of the pair. If the offspring are from a Stendker pair they ARE NOT Stendkers. They are from Stendker parents. I feel very stronly about this. I am a breeder. I have yet to take advantage of another's work,.

[cjr8420]

pigeon blood is a common name where the stress bars have mutated from bars to to black spots spread thru the body known as pepper.which they are trying to breed without now.leopards have spots so early discus with spots were called leopards which were bred into eruptions alot more spots thats why u see classic leopards and eruptions sold as different variety.flamingos are red/pink and so are famingo discus i have no experience or knowledge with these hth

dennis.. breeding a batch and calling then STENDKER Blue Diamonds is the name of the Pedigree.... so there is nothing wrong with their name..
this is not true they would just be blue diamonds from stendker parents not stendker blue diamonds.they can only carry the stendker if they from stendker.same with piwowrski discus and wayne ng.if they didnt breed them then their name should not be attached just the common blue diamond red turk ect. hth
im a slow typer lol +1 liz

[chrisb01]

I see we are talking about common names here, as well as names given by some breeders who have refined a certain line and/or strain. So the breeder's name is combined with the strain's common name.

So what about the scientific names which indicate species, for example, where it originates from and/or the name of the person who discover that species or both?

Symphysodon is the genus, and there are three or four different species, then many different strains. Lets say for example, Liz develops her own strain or has refined a certain strain, then she decides to call it "LizStreit Discus" or "Moselle Discus", and there is nothing wrong with that. She is simply identifying her strain.

Oh, BTW, Discus are listed under the "cichlidae family"

Now, let me throw this question out there. If the Parent Discus are both Wild caught, and I breed them, can I call the fry 'wild strain'?

The answer would have to equate the answer to the question: If I buy a pair of Stendker Discus, and they spawn for me, can I call the fry 'Stendker Discus' or 'Stendker Strain'?

And then some would advertise them as having 'Stendker Genes'.

Disclaimer: If I confused you, don't feel bad, I'm confused myself.

[bermyguy]

Interesting thread

[kent1963]

Now, let me throw this question out there. If the Parent Discus are both Wild caught, and I breed them, can I call the fry 'wild strain'?

For wilds at least this is simple. It has long been established that first gen from wild parents are called F1 if you breed these the fry are F2.... simply noting how far removed from wild they are. As for a breeders strain you would say red turq from (fill in the blank) parents.

[chrisb01]

For wilds at least this is simple. It has long been established that first gen from wild parents are called F1 if you breed these the fry are F2.... simply noting how far removed from wild they are. As for a breeders strain you would say red turq from (fill in the blank) parents.

Gotcha...thanks.

[Larry Bugg]

If you do a search you will find this same topic comes up often. Using the Stendker example..........Stendker is a name owned by Stendker. You can re-sell a Stendker Discus and call it that but you cannot breed two Stendker discus and call the offspring Stendkers. I feel quite sure a court of law would side with Stendker on this. As Liz stated you could say they are fry from a Stendker pair.

[Discus PB]

I must stongly disagree, Skip. If you didn't breed said fry you have no right to claim the name of the breeder of the pair. If the offspring are from a Stendker pair they ARE NOT Stendkers. They are from Stendker parents. I feel very stronly about this. I am a breeder. I have yet to take advantage of another's work,.
To me its like the blood lines in a dogs family tree to a point. To be honest I am just lost at this fish name and breeding thing lol.

[cjr8420]

The answer would have to equate the answer to the question: If I buy a pair of Stendker Discus, and they spawn for me, can I call the fry 'Stendker Discus' or 'Stendker Strain'?

And then some would advertise them as having 'Stendker Genes'.

.
stendker is not a strain or variety its a breeders name.if u spawn 2 stendker, say silver pigeons then these would be silver pigeons from stendker parents or u as the breeder could call them chrisb silver pigeons or really anything u want but stendker.hth

[Discus PB]

OK this is driving me nuts now!!!!!!!!!!
Now if you have say a Hans and a Stendker. To me it would be a first generation Hans and a first generation Stendker cross (Notice I said to me). For the next guy its you just got a discus if they breed them.
If people are that hardcore about it Hans, Stendker, Piwowrski and who ever else needs to have DNA codes on file of there fish to sue people I would assume.
Court wise how could they prove its not there fish and how could you prove its one of their fish.
I honestly could careless about who first spawned the fish long as it looks cool and is healthy.

I am a soft plastics maker for bass fishing. I am thinking of getting out of it because of all the legal crap and lawsuits. I have had letters sent to me from some of the largest company's in the business because of names and closeness of a lure (to scare me). I never did anything wrong I will point out. I do not knock off lure designs or steal names of other lures. I had a name of a lure stole from me by a top three lure company but what am I going to do about it.
The Point
If everyone starts Trade marking names like Red Rio. Then anyone that breeds them and try's to resell them on their website or forums will run the risk of getting sued. Unless they came up with the a new name for the same color or pattern. Now Hans, Stendker, Piwowrski and others can trade mark their name if they haven't already. Then you would have to get their permission to use their name when selling fry you bread I think. I am sure the next person that bought the fry from you could not use their name since they did not by the fish from them.

I confused myself sorry lol

Like this
Hans sells fish to person #1.
Person #1 breeds them fish.
Person #1 sells them fish as 1st generation Blue discus From Han's hatchery.
Person #2 buys a couple of Person #1 fry.
Person #2 breeds them fish.
Person #2 sells them as Blue discus.
Reason: Person #2 has no proof he bought them fish from Hans. Hans may have records of Person #1 buying fish from him.
>>>>>>>IMO<<<<<<<<<
I am done now sorry if I confused you its right in my head

[chrisb01]

If you do a search you will find this same topic comes up often. Using the Stendker example..........Stendker is a name owned by Stendker. You can re-sell a Stendker Discus and call it that but you cannot breed two Stendker discus and call the offspring Stendkers. I feel quite sure a court of law would side with Stendker on this. As Liz stated you could say they are fry from a Stendker pair.


stendker is not a strain or variety its a breeders name.if u spawn 2 stendker, say silver pigeons then these would be silver pigeons from stendker parents or u as the breeder could call them chrisb silver pigeons or really anything u want but stendker.hth

OK, I got that straight now. I can say 'they are fry from a Stendker pair', but not 'Stendker Discus'. We had discussed this same issue more or less, on Eric's thread about breeder's ethics.

Though, there are breeders out there that are doing that very thing. Shameful...

[Larry Bugg]

Don't confuse Hans and Stendker. Hans sells Stendker Discus from Germany. Hans is the importer. He will be the first to make that clear. He is not in the business of breeding and selling. But, as the North American representative for Stendker he is concerned about their good name.

Let me give a different example from the breeders point of view. Lets say Jack buys a proven pair of Stendker Discus from Hans. Now Jack is a horrible Discus keeper but there is no stopping Stendker pairs and they breed for him. Four months later the juvies are 2 inches and Jacks decides to sell some of them. Adam is friends with Jack and has never kept discus and buys some of Jacks's juvies. Jack tells Adam they are Stendker discus. Six months go by and the discus are now 3 1/2 inches and really look pretty horrible but of course Adam doesn't know that cause he never had discus before. Now Lisa comes over to Adams house and sees his discus. Adam says they are Stendker discus. Lisa leaves and says to herself. I was planning on buying some Stendker Discus but now that I have seen them in person I know better............................................ ...........

[Discus PB]

I was just using their names as examples.

[cjr8420]

I was just using their names as examples.
but they are kinda the same like kenny and forest so that screws up the start of your question but like i said b4 stendker, piwowrski ,and wayne ng have nothing to do with the name of the fish a piwowrski red turk offspring will alway be a red turk just wont be a piwowrski red turk. if u want you can put ur name on it and sell it that way.a _______ red turk.insert actual breeders name.hth

[Skip]

blah blah.. :)

you can say that the parents were Stendkers Discus.. and these are their F1's..

better.. ;)

[Dennis The Mennis]

My intention was not to debate the right to use a breeders name. I understand that completely. I am just trying sort out and understand all these different names. Patterns, colors, genes all seem to be part of the naming. But how is a newcomer ever supposed to sort it out? Does a leopard, snakeskin, checkerboard, maze, eruption, shooting star, all refer to the patterns? 14 bar, 9 bar, ring gene, deep blue gene all seem to refer to genetic strains. There just does not appear to be any rhyme or reason to this naming. It seems to me the name should mean something. It seems like people are just making stuff up as they go along. Please help a newcomer to understand.

[Skip]

.I am just trying sort out and understand all these different names. Patterns, colors, genes all seem to be part of the naming. But how is a newcomer ever supposed to sort it out? Does a leopard, snakeskin, checkerboard, maze, eruption, shooting star, all refer to the patterns? 14 bar, 9 bar, ring gene, deep blue gene all seem to refer to genetic strains. .

yes.. to the patterns.. those are name for fish are a certain pattern.. your a newbie.. you will see difference eventually

14 bar/9bar is easy..

for example. yim11 crossed a Stendker Leopard (9bar) with a Stendker Snakeskin (14bar)...
SOOO lets say 50% come out looking like 9bar Dad and 50% come out like 14bar Mom..

Lenver wanted Snake SKins.. so he good 14 Bar (snake skins)>. i wanted the Leopards so my fish have 9bars..

hows that

[ShinShin]

Back in the '50's and '60's when lived at home, my dad raced homing pigeons very successfully. Colorwise, there were blue barred, silver barred, red checked, blue checked, darck checked, grizzled, chocolates, various pieds and splashes, solid blacks and whites. Maybe more, maybe not. This would equate to red turquois, cobalts, pigeonbloods, red spot greens, etc. It was standard in pigeons. Not so with discus.

I remember this, too. You just didn't have a blue bar. You had a Sion blue bar, or a Bastine red checked, or a Haveneth Silver bar. The breeder's name always was attached. You could have a Bastine, Sion blue checked if you mated two different strains (breeders were the strain, not the color). I do not recall after all these years how, but a breeder (like my dad) could put his name to the strain after so many consecutive generation lines were hatched. There was some exact protocal for this. If were to develope my own leopards from a Wattley red turquois and Stendker red spot green, I would call them Matincheck Leopards if I desired. If I were to improve an existing strain of red turquois to where they have their own look after several generations of this line, I would also feel the right to call them Matincheck red turquois if I so desired.

As far as breeding a pure strain of a breeder's discus and selling them buy that name, back in the '90's I was breeding a line of red turquois from F1's from wild red royal blues x Wattley red turquois I bought from Wattley himself. I was selling to 5 LFS who sold them as Wattley red turquois. While talking to Gabe Posada (Wattley's partner for those who don't know who Gabe is) one day, I casually asked him if it were a problem with people selling them as w
Wattley red turquois. He said they can sell them however they want, that there was nothing he could do about it. Things may have changed now, however. I once read where Marc Weiss inserted a microchip in his discus. True? I do not know. I just read it somewhere.

Confuse things more? I hope so. lol

Mat

[nc0gnet0]

There was a time when the name of a discus had meaning. Most of the time it refereded to pattern/geneology. Such strains as say a checkerboard pigeon (pigeon blood with a checkerboard pattern), or a red turq (turquoise strain with red base color). As more and more varieties were developed breeders felt the need to have the next greatest new variety and began deviating from the naming scheme. Names that meant virtually nothing started appearing with more and more consistancy. So what you are left with now is some names do have implied meaning, while others don't.

Where some breeders cross the line is to imply by the name a certain geneology, when in fact that is not the case at all. For instance if I were to have a lightly colored batch of Red melon discus (pigeon blood based) that looked like golden melons (golden based), and then sold them as golden melons. That is an extreme example, but there are plenty of more subtle ones.

Rick

[cjr8420]

My intention was not to debate the right to use a breeders name. I understand that completely. I am just trying sort out and understand all these different names. Patterns, colors, genes all seem to be part of the naming. But how is a newcomer ever supposed to sort it out? Does a leopard, snakeskin, checkerboard, maze, eruption, shooting star, all refer to the patterns? 14 bar, 9 bar, ring gene, deep blue gene all seem to refer to genetic strains. There just does not appear to be any rhyme or reason to this naming. It seems to me the name should mean something. It seems like people are just making stuff up as they go along. Please help a newcomer to understand.
yes people are just making stuff up if you breed it you can name it is how it works at the moment as far as i know.every color/pattern discus ive seen has 5 different names.that why judging classes has more of a broad based system.spotted, solid, fine line, thick line and so on.NADA has all the classes on their site if u want to see them all.hth