PDA

View Full Version : maintaining pH with water changes



Orange Crush
12-05-2011, 05:24 AM
I was wondering the best way to deal with pH stability when having to do so many water changes? the pH of my tap is 7.0 but I know that discus prefer it to be in the low 6's. I do not want to use chemical additives to reduce the pH of new water that I would add so what do I do?
Is it better to keep the tank at pH 7?
I have read about people againg water in rain barrels or bins but how long does it have to sit for the pH to get to the low 6's?
Is there another method to reduce the pH without buffers and such?

Hogman
12-05-2011, 07:46 AM
Sir or Madam, water chemistry is a very complicated thing. Temperature, calcium hardness, and alkalinity all directly influence hydrogen ions (PH). Or the ability to change it. A PH of 7 out of the tap is base and IMO, is pretty good. Ageing, aerating, and heating water is the best method of stableizing it. Your water may or may not climb in PH after heating and aerating it. Depends on the chemical make-up your tap water. Trying to keep an exact PH in a closed system aquarium environment is nearly impossibe as PH changes all the time. Using buffers to raise or lower PH often spells doom for the novice aquarium keeper. Again, depends on alkalinity and the buffering capacity. You need to see what your water does after ageing, aerating, and bringing your temperature to whatever is desired to make further decisions. I would just leave your water alone

shoveltrash
12-05-2011, 07:50 AM
I'd kill for a pH of 7 straight out of the tap! lucky you.........
and Hogman's right, read up all the info you can on water chemistry. long ago I went the route of trying to chemically alter the pH of my tank - uh, yeah, NOPE. my water is high in buffers, so that nothing I added lasted! i've settled on a consistent pH -- my understanding is THAT is what is important -- although it is higher than recommended for Discus.

be happy with your 7! (jealous)

TURQ64
12-05-2011, 09:34 AM
You have darned near perfect water ph. Don't screw with it..Wild Discus like lower ph, but domestic Discus will tolerate most anything...7 is dandy for most any S.A. cichlid. Store it if you need a lot on hand.

mi-ko
12-05-2011, 11:32 AM
Hi I have similar problem but it's worse. My tap water PH is 8.1 and alkalinity is 15.4. Like you I have been trying to have PH to 6.5th using PH 6.5 sometimes discus buffer but as my alkalinity is so low that PH goes way down in no time. I have been fighting ammonia in my tank also. I've been changing 1/3 to 1/2 water every other day some times every day. I also put sea shells and petrified sea shells trying bring up alkalinity but nothing I do including using ammonia remover and purigien in aqua clear filter. I am almost end of my rope ! I am doing everything Including not feeding or very little. What should I be doing to correct ammonia and PH problem? HELP!!

jimg
12-05-2011, 11:51 AM
with ammonia in the water you have to either leave it alone if there are no fish or change 90% 1-2x a day if there are fish in it until the filters catch up which could take 6 weeks no reasoin to lower ph if you feel the need get a reverse osmosis setup
how long does it take for you ph to drop? daily wc's could possibly help that

mi-ko
12-05-2011, 11:56 AM
I forgot to mention that I have 29 gallon tank and in it I have 6 discus(4-5")', 2" clown loaches(2)and 3 Cory cat fish(1"). I know I may be over stocking the tank but I thought by changing water very often could avoid ammonia problem. I also clean aqua clear filter( aquaclear 50)once a month and inserts. I also have sponge filter in the tank.
I really don't know what else I can do to correct ammonia and PH problem.

Skip
12-05-2011, 11:58 AM
don't mess with the tap water chemistry... Discus LIKE Consistency in water chemistry not chemically changing it what some thinks what it should be.. WILDS may need different water parameters.. but lots of domestic fish are breed/live in regular water out of tap, so dropping their pH would be going against what "they are happy" with.. since its is all they know..

like i said.. CONSISTENCY trumps all

jimg
12-05-2011, 12:11 PM
I forgot to mention that I have 29 gallon tank and in it I have 6 discus(4-5")', 2" clown loaches(2)and 3 Cory cat fish(1"). I know I may be over stocking the tank but I thought by changing water very often could avoid ammonia problem. I also clean aqua clear filter( aquaclear 50)once a month and inserts. I also have sponge filter in the tank.
I really don't know what else I can do to correct ammonia and PH problem. you cannot have that many fish in that tank that is why your having problems. get a bigger tank, do 90% 2x daily wc's or give them away.

Skip
12-05-2011, 12:14 PM
I forgot to mention that I have 29 gallon tank and in it I have 6 discus(4-5")', 2" clown loaches(2)and 3 Cory cat fish(1"). I know I may be over stocking the tank but I thought by changing water very often could avoid ammonia problem. I also clean aqua clear filter( aquaclear 50)once a month and inserts. I also have sponge filter in the tank.
I really don't know what else I can do to correct ammonia and PH problem.

yep.. bigger tank.. change water asap and daily..

mi-ko
12-05-2011, 12:16 PM
Thank you for your suggestion jimg. If I do 90% wc do I use discus buffer for the tap water because it's PH is 8.1?
I have had this tank set up at the end of August. After wc I use discus buffer ( at the end of wc PH goes up to about 6-6.5) but in 30 min. or so PH is way down. I have no idea how low it is because it is always very yellow when I test it.

Skip
12-05-2011, 12:24 PM
STOP MESSING WITH THE WATER>> if your pH is dropping with the FISH IN IT>. you can kill them! pH drops kill.. they can tolerate pH rise..

my tap is about 8.1.. but after being in tank for 24 hrs.. its about 7.8..

if you want pH changes. then AGE your water for 24 hrs.. with a air stone in there.

jimg
12-05-2011, 12:26 PM
Thank you for your suggestion jimg. If I do 90% wc do I use discus buffer for the tap water because it's PH is 8.1?
I have had this tank set up at the end of August. After wc I use discus buffer ( at the end of wc PH goes up to about 6-6.5) but in 30 min. or so PH is way down. I have no idea how low it is because it is always very yellow when I test it.
just use tap no buffers if the ph is too low do 25% wc's throughout the day to acclimate them back to tap ph. adding baking soda will help kh but if you do daily large wc's you should be able to stabilize ph
best to read up on nitrogen cycle and gh kh ph as water parameters are different all over and what works for me may not work for you. just don't play with buffers until you understand what and why they do what they do.

Orange Crush
12-05-2011, 03:15 PM
Sachio,
Ammonia is caused by overfeeding, overstocking or underfiltration. If you use chemicals to remove the ammonia then you are starving the beneficial bacteria needed to eliminate the ammonia and you will always have ammonia problems. Test water daily, do big water changes to keep the amount of ammonia in the water survivable (hopefully) while the BB colony establishes itself. Between 6-8 weeks usually. Also, each discus needs about 10 gal of water each so your discus alone need a 60 gal tank without any other fish in there.

Orange Crush
12-05-2011, 03:26 PM
Also those clown loaches will get to be about a foot long each and need a huge tank. I have a 75 gal set up and still would not put clown loaches in there. For what you have right now you need about a 90 gal tank minimum. I suggest you find a good local fish store (LFS) who is willing to take some time getting to know your skill level, what you want and what you are willing to do because they can help you tremendusly. A responsible, knowledgable store would hopefully not let you buy clown loaches or discus without telling you what their requirements are. Big chains usually just want to make a buck and do not care or know enough to help you. And of course you have us at SD to help you out. I hope I am not sounding harsh, I just want to help you.

mi-ko
12-16-2011, 06:23 PM
Thank you guys! I have taken clown loaches out and I am looking for a bigger tank. I have been changing water every day(1/3 - 1/2) because of ammonia problem. My concern is by mixing tap water which is 8.1 PH and tank water which is 6 or below could shock discus when I do a large wc. That's why I thought I need to use discus buffer but shortly after wc, PH goes way down. KH and GH in tap water are so low that the water cannot be stabilized. So I stopped using those buffers and discus look miserable after each water change until they get used to PH change( very low).
I have had fish for a long time but never had these problems that I can remember. I have 40 gallon aquarium that is over crowded (I admit it) but water chemistry perfect. I do wc once a week for that tank. I really don't understand why I am having these problems with discus. I did not have these problems even with salt water tank. I am at loss. Do most discus keepers change water everyday even if water chemistry is OK?

mi-ko
12-16-2011, 06:41 PM
I don't know where my post went?? In short I am doing wc everyday but concerned about big difference in PH between
Tap water (8.1) and tank water ( very low, could be lower than 6). Discus look miserable after I do wc. What shall I do?

shoveltrash
12-16-2011, 06:50 PM
Sachio - I have asked you on several different threads, do you age your water before doing WC????

TURQ64
12-16-2011, 07:03 PM
You must have a bioload thru the roof for your ph to drop that low daily...Most all tap gases off to a higher ph eventually, not lower(with wc's),so..something pulls the ph down; substrate, wood,detritus,mulm...something ain't right.

kent1963
12-16-2011, 08:16 PM
Also those clown loaches will get to be about a foot long each and need a huge tank. I am curious as to where you got that #? They might reach that size in theory perhaps, but I have never seen one close to that size. I have a clown that I acquired at 1.5" in march of 1990 and he's only a little over 8".

Orange Crush
12-16-2011, 08:28 PM
http://www.loaches.com/species-index/clown-loach-chromobotia-macracanthus

Orange Crush
12-16-2011, 08:29 PM
http://www.loaches.com/species-index/clown-loach-chromobotia-macracanthus
http://www.clownloachfish.com/
http://badmanstropicalfish.com/profiles/profile13.html
etc etc etc.....

judy
12-16-2011, 08:34 PM
Get a bigger tank. Stop messing with your Ph. Get a bigger tank. Did I mention a bigger tank? Or re-home your fish. You simply can't have that many discus that size in a 29 gallon!!! You need at least a 60 for the discus alone. An eighty if you add in the other fish.

kent1963
12-16-2011, 10:58 PM
http://www.loaches.com/species-index/clown-loach-chromobotia-macracanthus
http://www.clownloachfish.com/
http://badmanstropicalfish.com/profiles/profile13.html
etc etc etc..... Thats interesting I am going by personal experience only but i have never seen one even close to that size! Largest one I have seen was at a public aquarium it was perhaps 10".

Orange Crush
12-16-2011, 11:37 PM
Kent1963 are you a man or a woman because your idea of what 10" is may be a little off ;)

mi-ko
12-17-2011, 01:46 AM
Shovel trash-- I have not seen your question regarding aging water for WC. Answer is no I don't. I have never used aged water for WC. As I mentioned before I have had fish tanks for over 40 years. I have bred cichlids, angel fish and I even had a pair of discus bred in my tank but unfortunately babies did not survive long. I think i had a pair in 15 or 20 gallon. I am getting a larger tank and hope ammonia problem will go away. But I am still concerned about a big difference between tap water and my tank water. I use python water changer which is using faucet to withdraw water from the tank and replace water straight out of tap water. I have been using this for many years. So mixing high PH water( tap water,8.1) and very low(6 or lower) water could shock discus, I thought. That is the reason why I used PH 6.5 and discus buffer. Do you guys think it's OK to mix these water and don't use any buffers? Or shall I use Novaqua to help discus a bit? I don't know if Novaqua will help in this kind of situation.

Sachio

mi-ko
12-17-2011, 01:53 AM
P.S. I use 110 AC filter, sponge filter ( biggest available) and a corner filter with just bio ring ( extra ones for AC) in it.
I thought this is enough filtration for a 29 gallon tank.

Orange Crush
12-17-2011, 03:15 AM
Novaqua is a tap water conditioner. Are you using any H2O conditioner at all?
When using a python you should put enough H2O cond. into the tank for the amount of H2O that the tank holds before adding the H2O from the tap. So if you have a 29 gal tank you should add enough cond. for 29 gal and not just the amount of H2O you are adding to the tank. If you don't use a tap H2O cond. you will kill all of your BB everytime you add more H2O.
It is enough filtration for a 29 gal tank but it is not enough for the bioload all of those fish are creating.
If you do not get a bigger tank nothing else you do to try and correct the H2O problem will matter......

shoveltrash
12-17-2011, 08:14 AM
sorry sachio! ;)


I had erroneously thought that aging your water might help, BUT,
Most all tap gases off to a higher ph eventually, not lower(with wc's),so..something pulls the ph down; substrate, wood,detritus,mulm...something ain't right.so I have learned something here!

good luck with your fish!

mi-ko
12-17-2011, 08:34 PM
Orange crush- yes, I do use prime for WC and not only for the amount I change but for the entire tank volume. thank you for your concern. I appreciate it.