Ammonia,PH,KH

[mi-ko]

I am a new comer to this forum and I need help. My tap water is very soft GH is 11 .8, alkalinity is 15.7 and PH is 8.1. I do 1/3 wc everyday sometimes every other day. My tank water gets very acidic in no time. I don't know how acidic it becomes because all I can see is very yellow when I test it. I tried PH 6.5, PH 7 and discus buffer by Seachem. Because alkalinity in my tap water is so low that PH cannot stay at 6.5 or so. I have put shells but it dose not help alkalinity or stabilize PH. Does anyone have suggestions for this problem? I also have ammonia problem. I have 6 dIscus which is about 3.5 -4" in 29 gallon tank plus 3 1" Cory cat fish. I set up this tank about 3 months ago. I may have over stocked
the tank. Feed them 3 times a day and try not to over feed them. I am using ac 110, sponge filer and a corner we filter. How can I solve those problems? It is driving me crazy and very stressful.
I may resolver to buy 50 gallon tank but that may help ammonia problem but not PH and GH problem.
Any suggestion will be appreciated.

[damba]

What does your ph settle at? Stability is best rather than trying to buffer water. What are the tap readongs vis a vis ammonia nitrate etc? More info.

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[Orange Crush]

Did you move the clown loaches to a different tank?
If you are going to buy a bigger tank, which will prevent a lot of problems you are going to have with a overstocked tank, I would go bigger than a 50 gal. You should think about what size the fish are going to be not what they are now. With 6 discus you need at least 60 gal and with more fish in there the tank needs to be bigger.
Have you stopped using filter media and chemicals to combat the ammonia? It will not matter how big that tank is if you do not properly cycle it first and allow the BB cultures to grow. However in that small of a tank you might always have ammonia and with a pH over 7 the ammonia is much more toxic than if it is below 7. Regardless you should not use buffers or pH up or pH down. Fish want stability. A stable 8.1 is better than the pH going up and down.
Have you tried aging your water in buckets to stablize the pH before adding to the tank?
I recommend doing more water changes than 1/3 most days. Someone with more experience could tell you how much.

[TURQ64]

Ahoy there..You may get a broader amount of help if you posted this in the water works section...this is generally an area regarding merchandising....JMO

[shoveltrash]

You may get a broader amount of help if you posted this in the water works section.maybe someone can move it???

I may be missing something here (quite possible since I'm one of those *newbies* that is still on a steep learning curve!).....do you age your water prior to filling your tank? so that the pH is stable when you go to do a WC? I have the opposite problem, pH from tap is around 7-ish, after aging it rises to 8.2.

[Chad Hughes]

Sachio,

I've moded your post to the appropriate forum so that you might get more help from others.

[pcsb23]

maybe someone can move it???

I may be missing something here (quite possible since I'm one of those *newbies* that is still on a steep learning curve!).....do you age your water prior to filling your tank? so that the pH is stable when you go to do a WC? I have the opposite problem, pH from tap is around 7-ish, after aging it rises to 8.2.Trish, I've been at this for more years than I care to remember and I'm still on a steep learning curve!! The reason yours rises is most likely that CO2 is being off gassed, basically CO2 in water forms carbonic acid, so the pH lowers, when the CO2 leaves the pH rises.

To the OP,

... I may have over stocked the tank. ... yep, I'd say so :) Getting a bigger tank would make sense. Are you using prime at all?

As you pH is low then ammonia will be in the very much less harmful state of ammonium, however this will still be converted to NO2 (nitrite) which is just about as bad for the fish as ammonia (in some cases worse!). You say your tank has been running for 3 months? the filters should be cycled by now ... perhaps you can tell us how you prepare your change water?

Definitely consider a bigger tank - I'd suggest a 75.

As for the pH dropping, personally I don't worry too much over it as long as the change is slow and particularly as you are doing frequent water changes. I would definitely avoid the pH buffers (up or down!!), these really are bad news ime. If you need to buffer then using coral sand in a sock in a filter somewhere will help, the amount will have to be judged by trial and error. Some have found the reef builder product from Seachem to work well, though I have never tried it.

If it was me I really wouldn't bother, I'd just do the water changes and enjoy the soft water, the discus will for sure! If it helps my discus tank run well under a pH of 5, it is just how it works out with my method, and all of my discus seem to like it ;) (that is European, Asian and wild caught btw!).

[shoveltrash]

The reason yours rises is most likely that CO2 is being off gassed, basically CO2 in water forms carbonic acid, so the pH lowers, when the CO2 leaves the pH rises.yeah.....but for some crazy reasons I thought the same might apply to pH lowering (ageing water would stabilize it), DUH! I'll get this one day!!!!

so a high bioburden would be a causative agent in significant downward changes in pH in a tank....
thx pcsb23! :)

[mi-ko]

I am using ammonia remover in my AC filter. How often do I need to change and how much do I use? Obviously it is not taking care of ammonia problem even with WC. I have BB tank with AC 110 and large sponge filter. I have very over crowded 40 gallon tank and it's been going over 3 years. It's water parameter is perfect. Is is not a bb tank and I use AC110 for the tank. I just don't understand why only discus tanks are having this problem. Do Anyone have opinion on using ammonia remover in a filter?

[Chicago Discus]

I am using ammonia remover in my AC filter. How often do I need to change and how much do I use? Obviously it is not taking care of ammonia problem even with WC. I have BB tank with AC 110 and large sponge filter. I have very over crowded 40 gallon tank and it's been going over 3 years. It's water parameter is perfect. Is is not a bb tank and I use AC110 for the tank. I just don't understand why only discus tanks are having this problem. Do Anyone have opinion on using ammonia remover in a filter? ammonia remover in filters really won't work with the amount of water you should be changing. make sure you age your water at least 24 hours prior to doing a water change I have the same issue with my tap it rises after the co2 is released. just aerate the water and put a heater to match the temperature in your tank and start doing water changes everyday at least 50% until your ammonia levels go down, don't use any buffers or play with the PH, just get a routine down with water changes take all the extras out of you filter and just start using ages aerated tap and in about a week you will notice a big difference. Just my 2 cents........................Josie

[mi-ko]

Hi I don't understand the reason why so many people are aging water for WC. I never have done that in my over 40 years of fish keeping. According to some people I should not worry too much about PH in my tank which is 6 or below.
When I change water using python straight out of tap water(PH 8.1) my tank PH becomes higher. I am concerned about stress on discus. I have lost 2 rose nose sharks(?) and 3 cat fish(Cory) so far with frequent 50% or more WC every day.
I think it could be because of drastic change in PH. I don't know. Does any body have any idea for this loss? However all my discus seem to be doing OK so far.

[shoveltrash]

it would be an interesting experiment, for you to 'age' a small container of water for 24 hrs (w/air stone diffuser). see if your pH changes at all. most here age their water because the pH changes. your problem sounds like it is in the tank itself though......article below (link) details how that can happen.

what is your KH? it helps keep pH stable.
pertinent info here:
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html#kh

[Sean Buehrle]

Hi I don't understand the reason why so many people are aging water for WC. I never have done that in my over 40 years of fish keeping. According to some people I should not worry too much about PH in my tank which is 6 or below.
When I change water using python straight out of tap water(PH 8.1) my tank PH becomes higher. I am concerned about stress on discus. I have lost 2 rose nose sharks(?) and 3 cat fish(Cory) so far with frequent 50% or more WC every day.
I think it could be because of drastic change in PH. I don't know. Does any body have any idea for this loss? However all my discus seem to be doing OK so far.

Since the weather has turned cold I've been using quite a bit of hot water to get water barrels close to the 80 degree mark. I'm doing that so my heaters don't run constantly at 300 watts per heater, trying to save energy.
Anyways, the water has billions of micro bubbles in it and who knows what those bubbles are made of .

De gassing and heating or aging water sometimes will lead to a ph change, depending on your water makeup.

It's better IMO to age water and let it do it's thing in a barrel than to have it do it in the tank with the fish.

I spoke to the guy that owns the filter guys company and he told me that tap water is very very low in oxygen so it's a good idea to let it get some oxygen in it before adding to the tank. Water is his business and I'll take his word for it.

It's possible to actually suffocate fish with new water.

That's my take on aging water.

[Orange Crush]

You should not use any ammonia removers in your tank. When you use them the colony of benificial bacteria that converts ammonia into nitrite cannot grow, you are starving them and you will always have an ammonia problem waiting to happen. Those amm. filters can help eliminate some ammonia but not high ammounts and when it cannot do anymore (needs replacement) you will have a high spike of ammonia one day and unless you are testing for amm. daily you may not even know this until your fish start dying. Even though your tank is 3 mo old it is not really cycled because you have stunted the process. You should stop using the amm filter so that the BB can grow then you will have a nitrite spike at which point another kind of bacteria converts nitrtite into nitrate which is not toxic but should be kept to a bare minimum with discus.
You can keep using buffers, amm filters etc. but then your tank will not be balanced and "self sufficient" which means you are going to be fighting water chem problems forever in that tank.
Get a bigger tank, allow it to cycle naturally before puting sensitive fish like discus in it(I recommend "fishless cycling"), age the water before doing changes, then you mostly will only need to worry about doing enough water changes to keep the water clean and much less on pH drops, ammonia etc. It will be soooooo much easier! :D