someone PLEASE talk to me about potassium & Discus

[shoveltrash]

I did several "potassium" searches here, and the only info I come up with is about "PP". which is not what I'm looking for......I'm looking for info regarding potassium softened water.

apologies, I've posted on this subject before (in other threads). I'm getting obsessive worrying about WATER :(

but I am seriously considering changing my whole-house water softening system from sodium to potassium (for a variety of reasons, primarily to get rid of salt in drinking & cooking water).
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so.
my plan is to mix 50/50 softened water with my well water (still have to figure out how to get it to the house......).
is POTASSIUM SOFTENED WATER safe for Discus? safer than SODIUM softened water?

so far, miraculously, my 2 Discus (& my 3 AF....who have been around for over a year) have seemingly thrived in my sodium softened water. eating, growing, no problems. however I worry about the long term effects. I got my Discus prior to joining here - so my excuse/caveat is "I did not know any better!" but now I want to MAKE it better.
add to that I've invested in a bigger tank, and want things as good as possible prior to getting *new* Discus :)

someone talk to me about this!
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU

ps - RO is out for now, due to logistics problems with water storage........worst case, I'll go that route. but I really want info on the above first!

[shoveltrash]

pps - 'read this on another aquarium forum, which made me a bit more optimistic about K-softened water

I did two independent test of my water, 2 samples from inside the house which is part of the potassium water softener circuit and two samples from outside which is strait city well water. While KH (the ability of the water to buffer PH) was identical for both at 143 PPM, GH had a difference of 467 PPM between the water softener and city water. My potassium softener water that I have been recently doing my water changes with tested at 35 PPM while outside strait from the city well tested at 502 PPM which is sometimes higher. This test wasn't even performed on a water change day when I recharge the softener so I plan to take another test on my next scheduled water change right after a fresh potassium recharge I bet the GH will be 17 PPM.
So this proves what I have been seeing in my fish that no longer do they get stressed after water changes even though I am no longer using RO to cut the hard water and best of all with potassium in the water instead of salt for softening, my nitrate plant filter is growing fast now budding strong again which means I will see my nitrates drop back down to zero again, oh happy day.

interesting, because my sodium-softened water TDS is double that of my well water. GH of well water is WAY off the charts. so perhaps potassium uses less ions in softening exchange?

[brewmaster15]

Hi Trish,
I have no direct experience with it, but I think its just as safe as sodium based if not safer... I did a quick net search with google using the parameters ... "potassium water softerner aquarium fish" and came up with a few hits....

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-193461.html

I'm sorry if you posted this elsewhere but why do you use a water softener ? What are your waters parameters?

-al

[nc0gnet0]

The amount of sodium in your softened water will depend on the amount of calcium in your well water. I believe it still takes two potasium ions to replace one calcium ion, but I am not 100 % sure on this. As for the discus, I am not sure it matters, but the plants will do better in the potasium water.

[shoveltrash]

I'm sorry if you posted this elsewhere but why do you use a water softener ? What are your waters parameters?
when I bought my house (old farm house) a year ago, it had a whole-house water softening system already installed. connected directly to well water output, IN the well house. I was told that the water was SO hard that mineral buildup ruined appliances - which is why the former owners had it installed. the only access I have to direct well water (non-softened) is up at my horse barn, and one spigot that is 100ft from the house.

parameters:
per API test kit - well water GH off the chart (it took 19 drops to change the color, chart tops @ 12 drops/214ppm)
well & softened water KH identical @ 214ppm
softened water GH 53ppm

per TDS meter:
well water 280ppm
softened from tap 350-400
softened from aging barrel 520
softened in tank (right now) 720 (!)

I can only posit that evaporation is causing higher TDS parameters in tank & barrel.

I do WCs 75% every other day.

pH is steady across the board @ 8.2 (aged)

cycled 40g tank, 0 nitrites, 0 ammonia, <.25 nitrates

my head is spinning with information overload! LOL
so..........since my well GH is so high, I'm assuming that sodium is high because of ion exchange. is potassium a better trade-off?
today I'm going to buy 100ft drinking water hose, to mix the salt softened 50/50 with well water. that's got to be better, right?
Tuesday the softened water company rep is coming out to ready my system for potassium.......and check it out to make sure it's functioning correctly.
so I guess my main question is: is potassium going to be SAFE for the fish?


The amount of sodium in your softened water will depend on the amount of calcium in your well water. I believe it still takes two potasium ions to replace one calcium ion, but I am not 100 % sure on this. As for the discus, I am not sure it matters, but the plants will do better in the potasium water.as per above, the calcium in my well water is HIGH. so the amount of sodium is relative to that. I need to research & see how many sodium ions it takes to replace one calcium ion, and ditto for potassium. <edited to add: based on TDS meter readings, I'm guessing it is approx. 2 sodium ions per 1 calcium ion exchange>
heck, at least with potassium softened water I could have plants! right now my water kills plants.

THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH FOR REPLYING!!!!!!!!

[shoveltrash]

ps -
I did a quick net search with google using the parameters ... "potassium water softerner aquarium fish" and came up with a few hits.....
yep, I found this and some other info......but figured I'd post here because I trust the knowledge & experience of SD members ;) (not everything on the internet is true! LOL)

[brewmaster15]

Trish,
Since you have that person coming out, ask them to bring you all the technical data they have this.....I'm sure they have files on it...why not let them earn their money a bit?:)

hth,
al

[Harry Marsh]

Your answer lies in moving to Charlotte :)

70 ppm, right out of the tap

[Northwoods Discus]

Your GH will go down on softened water due to the exchange of sodium or potassium Ions for calcium. The TDS will remain the same because the TDS meter reads the Total Dissolved Solids. The TDS meter cannot tell if the solids are calcium, sodium or potassium. GH measures only the calcium. The Kh will not change because that is due to carbonates. Carbonates are not removed by softeners.
I tried using potassium in place of sodium. Plants in my planted tank loved it. Did not seem to affect the fish or be better for the fish.
I am in the same situation with severe hard water with high iron also ( iron will add to water hardness). Now I have gone to pure R/O with a pinch of well water added. Not using the softened water because the TDS is still high. R/O is the only way you can lower TDS. It can be "softer" but will not lower TDS.
Also potassium softener salt costs about 5-10 times more than sodium based softener. If it makes you feel better you can mix the two also to have some decrease in sodium. Maybe 1K to 3Na. Or whatever you like. The cost was a major deterrent to using it when you change hundreds of gallons of water daily.

[shoveltrash]

Your answer lies in moving to Charlotte :)

70 ppm, right out of the tap
:wave: howdy neighbor!
and, ah, NO - I used to live in Charlotte......country life is much better!
'cept for the stupid water :(.


potassium softener salt costs about 5-10 times more than sodium based softener. If it makes you feel better you can mix the two also to have some decrease in sodium. Maybe 1K to 3Na. Or whatever you like. The cost was a major deterrent yeah. I went and bought some bags of KCl - YIKES. and unfortunately I don't think I can mix K & Na. the water softener rep came out yesterday and had to change the brine tank float setting for K.
I'll be dealing with a 40g & a 65g tank. I have a feeling that you're right, K is going to be exhorbitantly expensive.

what RO system do you have?
the whole "RO" thing is confusing to me, in regards to real-time output. right now I have to run a long hose from my kitchen to the aging barrel. and if mixing softened tap/well water (what I'm doing now).....add a 100ft hose from outside spigot. just not sure how to get RO water into my storage barrel???? under sink RO mount in kitchen, ok, but then what's the gallon per hour output? pretty darn slow, right?
how do people set this up?
ARRRGGG.
perhaps now it's time for me to go do a *search* here for RO setup :)



I tried using potassium in place of sodium. Plants in my planted tank loved it. Did not seem to affect the fish or be better for the fish.
so, did you keep Discus in softened water? for how long? with what results?

thank you so much for taking the time to post here Northwoods Discus!

[LizStreithorst]

Girl friend, I have been suffering for you, but didn't have enough knowledge to post to the thread. Water is so terribly complex.

RO is easy. You can hook it up to your water supply with a hose or dirrectly, run waste through a small tube that you can staple along the base boards to outside (make a water garden) or to a drain. Do the same with the good stuff to your WS container.

But you have a water mentor now. You don't need my silly comments.

[Northwoods Discus]

Yes I did use softened water and in the planted tank with the Kcl it worked great. Plants did well and fish were healthy with no issues. The problem I had was with breeding tanks. I was having difficulty with eggs not hatching and wanted to lower TDS. The only way to do it is R/O. I have 3 problems with my water though. 1. very hard. 23 drops to get the Gh to change. High Kh so Ph is high (over 8.0) and high Iron. So I run my water through an Iron filter, then micron filters into the softener. From the softener to the R/O units. Into the storage tanks.
One R/O storage tank is for pure R/O for breeding tanks. I mix Replenish to get TDS to 80-90ppm I have tried it lower. This is a 100 gal per day unit. get about 75 gal day out of it. For the big display tank and grow out tanks I use R/O with well mixed in to bring the TDS up in the 150 range. I do this mixing in a 265 gal storage barrel and plumbed it to all the tanks. The R/O runs in constantly and I add well water from a line I tapped into the main line coming in the house before the pressure tank. The new Shark Bite type plumbing fixtures are great for small jobs.
R/O is easy. Tap a line, most units come with a tap or can be ordered. You can use a hose fitting on a basement sink. You need a drain for waste water. Then there is one more line for your product water. You can run the lines anywhere you need to. They are hard plastic about the diameter of airline. They connect with snap fittings. Don't be afraid of it. We have sponsors that sell units. They are all about the same construction. Membranes are different quality though and different output (gal/day)
I don't know if this helps you but I got rambling.
Bill

[fredfry]

Yes I did use softened water and in the planted tank with the Kcl it worked great. Plants did well and fish were healthy with no issues. The problem I had was with breeding tanks. I was having difficulty with eggs not hatching and wanted to lower TDS. The only way to do it is R/O. I have 3 problems with my water though. 1. very hard. 23 drops to get the Gh to change. High Kh so Ph is high (over 8.0) and high Iron. So I run my water through an Iron filter, then micron filters into the softener. From the softener to the R/O units. Into the storage tanks.
One R/O storage tank is for pure R/O for breeding tanks. I mix Replenish to get TDS to 80-90ppm I have tried it lower. This is a 100 gal per day unit. get about 75 gal day out of it. For the big display tank and grow out tanks I use R/O with well mixed in to bring the TDS up in the 150 range. I do this mixing in a 265 gal storage barrel and plumbed it to all the tanks. The R/O runs in constantly and I add well water from a line I tapped into the main line coming in the house before the pressure tank. The new Shark Bite type plumbing fixtures are great for small jobs.
R/O is easy. Tap a line, most units come with a tap or can be ordered. You can use a hose fitting on a basement sink. You need a drain for waste water. Then there is one more line for your product water. You can run the lines anywhere you need to. They are hard plastic about the diameter of airline. They connect with snap fittings. Don't be afraid of it. We have sponsors that sell units. They are all about the same construction. Membranes are different quality though and different output (gal/day)
I don't know if this helps you but I got rambling.
Bill

Well Trish, my water is about exactly like Bill's and I am from Michigan also. My gh is 23 too out of the well. I have a softener too and been using just plain salt My softener takes the gh way down to 1 drop but like Bill said it doesn't affect the high kh at all.I don't have any fish yet because I was worried about my water killing them. It would be good news for me if I can keep discus in my water. I could always go to ro later if I wanted to try spawning them. I don't want to compare discus to guppies, but my guppies are thriving in my water softener water and my plants don't do too bad either.
Bill, are you getting 75 gal from the ro unit without a pressure pump? Maybe you got something there with the filters you are using. Good luck with your water Trish, I know you will prevail. Fred

[afriend]

Trish

I also have well water, with a salt based water softner. My well water has high levels of GH and KH similar to what you have, although they are not as high as you have. The well water is first sent thru the water softner and the GH is reduced to near zero, and the KH is nearly unchanged. The output of the water softner is then sent to my RO unit and the result is that the TDS is reduced to zero. I then mix a percentage of straight well water back into the RO water to stabalize the PH to the desired level. I experimented with different percentages of well water until I got the desired PH.

The reason I'm relating this to you is that I learned something along the way about my TDS meter. My TDS measurements of water softner water are not consistant (it varies by as much as 100 ppm.) I suspect that the reason for this is that the softner adds salt to the water which changes the conductivity and thus the measured TDS. Also, the amount of salt added varies depending on when the softner last cycled. Once the water has gone thru the RO system, the TDS readings become repeatable and thus much more reliable.

The second thing I learned about my TDS meter is that I needed to "clean" the TDS transducer after each and every measurement. This is quite easy to accomplish. I use pure RO water, but if you don't have any right now, get some distilled water from the grocery store. This is how I do it: place some clean water into a clean jar. Right after taking a measurement, shake the remaining water off the TDS meter and then place the end of it into the water in the jar and shake it for a few seconds. Then remove the TDS meter again and shake it to remove any remaining water off the meter. What you are accomplishing by doing this is preventing contaminates from depositing on the transducer when it dries. My TDS measurements became much more consistant when I started to clean it this way.

Hope this helps.

Paul

[shoveltrash]

hey, thanks for that Paul! I too have had inconsistent readings with my TDS meter - however when I average the readings they all fall within a small range (say for example 200-275, 3 measurements of 1 sample of water). good to know about the cleaning too...


the softner adds salt to the water which changes the conductivity and thus the measured TDS. Also, the amount of salt added varies depending on when the softner last cycled<nodding in agreement>
the cycling of the softener has a LOT to do with fluctuations I have experienced imho.


interesting what pcsb23 wrote on your thread regarding H+ ions (acids) affecting TDS measurements. altho that's not a problem with my water, as it is VERY alkaline LOL (8.3).


I don't have any fish yet because I was worried about my water killing them. It would be good news for me if I can keep discus in my waterwell Fred, SO FAR my Discus and my AF have been doing just fine in this water. my Angels have lived in this water for over a year, and were grown from nickle size to a whopping 8" fin to fin size! the 2 Discus have grown so far (3 months), and eat like pigs :). my main concern was long-term effects of salt. no definitive data 'out there' on this that I can find.

I'm changing from salt to potassium for softening for more reasons than just fish. drinkable water, cooking purposes, watering houseplants, not killing off all my grass with the salt-softened discharge water (!). I'll be transitioning my aquarium gradually in the next 2 days, from the salt softened/well mix to K softened water. I'll probably add some well water just for the minerals too (small amt).


Yes I did use softened water and in the planted tank with the Kcl it worked great. Plants did well and fish were healthy with no issues. The problem I had was with breeding tanks. good news :). I don't plan on going into breeding, I just want good conditions for my fish. water parameters in my tank are pristine in terms of ammo, nitrite/nitrate - & have always been that way. I believe that this is much more important than TDS, in terms of fish health.
Bill your feedback is invaluable. I can't thank you enough.
as for this:
For the big display tank and grow out tanks I use R/O with well mixed in to bring the TDS up in the 150 range. I do this mixing in a 265 gal storage barrel and plumbed it to all the tanks. :shocked: 265 gallon storage barrel?????? WOW. wow.



Girl friend, I have been suffering for you, but didn't have enough knowledge to post to the thread. Water is so terribly complex.
oh Liz, thank you! (((hug)))
"You don't need my silly comments." - silly? not at all! heck, moral support is just as important as technical data.


so, my plan is to use the K softened water for now. monitor usage/expense of the KCl. long-term it might be more cost effective to set up RO, but for now I'm going with what I've got. altho this leads to another question (isn't that always the case? LOL)
IF YOU'VE GOT FISH ACCLIMATED TO HIGH pH & TDS, HOW DO YOU CHANGE THEM OVER TO LOWER pH/TDS, without shocking & killing them? I'm guessing a slow progression of water changes, gradually adding more & more RO water?
whew. whole 'nother subject, sorry :(.