PH drop

[Dennis The Mennis]

What might cause a high PH drop in my tank. My tap water is about 7.3 and aged is about 7.5. My tank is 6 or below.

[jimg]

nitrogen cycle, some wood.

[Dennis The Mennis]

should I add a bit of baking soda to bring it back up? My fish are not happy, not eating and generally very stressed.

[jimg]

no, feed very light do a few water changes to get the ph back up.

[Dennis The Mennis]

I've been doing 50% daily wc's. It seems to have a positive effect initally, but by the 24 hour mark my fish are not doing good at all. They're dark and breathing very heavy too. Some faring little better than others. Its a 125 with seven new 4.5" discus from Kenny. I used two cycled sponges from Kenny to jump start my bio load. No detectable ammonia or nitrites.

[seanyuki]

Did you QT the new arrivals b4 adding them to yr display tank.....never mix them from different sources.

[Dennis The Mennis]

These are the only fish in there. All seven came from Kenny, so I guess it could be said that this is the QT tank...

[Chicago Discus]

Just my opinion don't age the water just use straight tap. That ph swing is not enough to be aging your water. what else do you have in the tank other than the fish?

[Dennis The Mennis]

I do not age my water. I have some silk plants and a few round river rocks around their bases to hold them in place.

[Chicago Discus]

do you have enough aeration going?

[Dennis The Mennis]

I have a whole house water filter too. It is suposed to remove all the chlorine and chloramine, but I decided not to chance it and I have been adding a bit of ClorAm-X at water changes just to be sure. I think I am going to try not adding it tonight and see if it makes a difference on my water readings.

[Dennis The Mennis]

I just added a couple of long airstones this afternoon when I go home.

[Chicago Discus]

I just added a couple of long airstones this afternoon when I go home. That should help with the breathing issue. as far as the PH drop I'm not sure if the water to your house is treated that could be the problem but I'm not sure we have very different water maybe someone else can chime in to help you with that......Josie

[Melissa]

Hmm, maybe there's some other stressor? 7 x 4.5" discus in a big ol 125 gallon tank, they must have a lot of swimming room... Maybe they need more time to get to know their home and your routine? Just a guess and I know not likely the culprit but it's something to always consider. Sometimes they can be such babies when something is just not perfectly right.

[Melissa]

Also, I cannot speak as to the reason for your ph drop- it doesn't make sense to me. But you might look into your local water... I know you mentioned you have a filter and such but it was something else I thought about. I live in CA too, and my local water company adds a ridiculous amount of chloramines into our tap water. The dechlorinator I use is Prime, and the recommended dosage only removes 1mg/L ammonia, 4mg/L chloramine, or 5 mg/L chlorine. It takes a double dose of Prime to neutralize all of the crap out of my tap...

I had a situation one time where it seemed like the more water I changed the worse the fish looked and I couldn't figure out what was wrong with them.

[jimg]

what are you using to check water parameters? if test strips...go get liquid test kits. check your gh and kh. add 1 tbls salt per 10 gal for a few days for now.
how did you acclimate them?
fill this out completely http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?38545-Disease-Questionnaire-please-complete
I would guess for now the tank is not cycled
also check your tap ammonia/nitrates

[seanyuki]

So the acclimation process..............drip system or flip and flop.............Pro & Cons ...........share yr views.

[TURQ64]

Plop and drop..drip leaves too much chance for ammonia burns, etc. from shipping

[Chicago Discus]

I use both methods it depends on how the fish look in the bags................Josie

[seanyuki]

Does discus sizes matters for those methods?........hope to understand more.

[Chicago Discus]

Does discus sizes matters for those methods?........hope to understand more. for me it depends on how they are doing in the bags when they arrive if they seem to be struggling (breathing,color,temperature etc..) If they seem to be ok i drain the water and just plop them in if they are having problems then I use the drip method. size for me doesn't matter I treat them the same .........Josie

[seanyuki]

Hi Josie......good to hear yr opinions(great infos) and hope others share their experiences too.........this is how we learn in this forum.



for me it depends on how they are doing in the bags when they arrive if they seem to be struggling (breathing,color,temperature etc..) If they seem to be ok i drain the water and just plop them in if they are having problems then I use the drip method. size for me doesn't matter I treat them the same .........Josie

[Chicago Discus]

Hi Josie......good to hear yr opinions(great infos) and hope others share their experiences too.........this is how we learn in this forum. I have heard so many people on this forum say just plop and drop. That method is ok if the fish are not stressed, If they are stressed and the temperature is way off then the drip method is the way to go..................Josie

[Melissa]

Most people ship fish in a very low ph, where ammonia is rendered in a non toxic form.... Of course during shipping ammonia is building up in the bag from the fishes waste. If you use the drip method... Slowly increasing the ph in the bag, the ammonia will become very toxic, very fast. It does not hurt a fish to go from a low ph (In bag) into a higher ph (in tank) and plopping and dropping is the only way I will ever do it.

If there is a major difference in temperature, just float the bag.

[Discus Origins]

Float bags to equalize temp and then drop the fish in the tank. The drip method is outdated for freshwater fish and only used for saltwater to equalize salinity. Unless the tank water is lower in ph than bag water (very unlikely) the addition of higher ph water will increase toxicity of ammonia present.

[Chicago Discus]

Most people ship fish in a very low ph, where ammonia is rendered in a non toxic form.... Of course during shipping ammonia is building up in the bag from the fishes waste. If you use the drip method... Slowly increasing the ph in the bag, the ammonia will become very toxic, very fast. It does not hurt a fish to go from a low ph (In bag) into a higher ph (in tank) and plopping and dropping is the only way I will ever do it.

If there is a major difference in temperature, just float the bag.

I agree with you but you can acclimate the fish slower by getting rid of some of the water in the bag and drip slowly. I use the plop and drop method to but if the fish comes in with problems the plop and drop method in my opinion will just ad to the problem. temperature, PH, Ammonia etc....change all at once can cause more problems for your fish. if the fish comes in looking fine and no adverse effects from shipping then i just put them in the tank. If they are struggling I pour some of the water they are in out so my drip time lessens. Its just the way I do it I believe a slower acclimation for fish that struggling gives them a better chance to recover then exposing them to drastic changes all at once...........Just my 2 cents..........Josie

[Chicago Discus]

Float bags to equalize temp and then drop the fish in the tank. The drip method is outdated for freshwater fish and only used for saltwater to equalize salinity. Unless the tank water is lower in ph than bag water (very unlikely) the addition of higher ph water will increase toxicity of ammonia present.LOL well then I guess I'm just out dated .........Josie

[Melissa]

Float bags to equalize temp and then drop the fish in the tank. The drip method is outdated for freshwater fish and only used for saltwater to equalize salinity. Unless the tank water is lower in ph than bag water (very unlikely) the addition of higher ph water will increase toxicity of ammonia present.
Exactly.
+1

[ExReefer]

Sometimes they can be such babies when something is just not perfectly right.

I agree with this. It does not take much for my discus to become picky or skittish. IMO, keeping them happy is the biggest challenge, but it's what drives a lot of us in the discus hobby. It's easy to keep a pair of guppies happy, but discus bring specific challenges to the game.

My discus will eat like hogs if I'm the only one in the fish room, but if I'm showing them off to a small group of people, they are instantly less bold and slightly stressed. They'll still eat, but not with as much gusto until the room clears.

Any bright lighting above the tank? That could stress them.

[Chicago Discus]

both methods will work just depends on what you see when you open the bag

[Melissa]

If a fish is stressed inside a shipping bag, it's for a reason. Both methods can work- they both get the fish out of the darn bag... but with a drip method, even removing 'some' of the toxic bag water and replacing with tank water- the fish is more likely to suffer ammonia burns and additional stress.

[Chicago Discus]

If a fish is stressed inside a shipping bag, it's for a reason. Both methods can work- they both get the fish out of the darn bag... but with a drip method, even removing 'some' of the toxic bag water and replacing with tank water- the fish is more likely to suffer ammonia burns and additional stress. Im sorry its just the way I have been doing it for years I think do what works for you........Josie

[Melissa]

Just to clarify, there is a difference between SHIPPING a fish, and bringing a bag home from a fish store...
The drip method would be fine for your fish if eyve only spent a little while in the bag coming from somewhere local...;)

[Chicago Discus]

Just to clarify, there is a difference between SHIPPING a fish, and bringing a bag home from a fish store...
The drip method would be fine for your fish if eyve only spent a little while in the bag coming from somewhere local...;)
Thats very true there is a big difference the ammonia levels can be dangerous for fish that have been in bags for a long period of time.

[seanyuki]

where do the ammonia come from..................experienced seller/shipper fast the discus for 48 hrs plus then add bag buddies/or whatever chemicals into the bags with pure oxygen to remove ammonia..............is distances plays an important role to create ammonia ..............those chemicals added into the bag and how long they last in the bag b4 ammonia build up........I have done no research on this but only curious.

[Melissa]

where do the ammonia come from..................experienced seller/shipper fast the discus for 48 hrs plus then add bag buddies/or whatever chemicals into the bags with pure oxygen to remove ammonia..............is distances plays an important role to create ammonia ..............those chemicals added into the bag and how long they last in the bag b4 ammonia build up........I have done no research on this but only curious.

Nothing a shipper puts in the bag removes ammonia, only neutralizes it. In other words, renders it non-toxic... Which is also accomplished by shipping in a lower ph...
Where does the ammonia come from? The fishes bootay! Lol it's fish waste.

[seanyuki]

Good point Mellissa..........good to know lah....... me always learning.



Nothing a shipper puts in the bag removes ammonia, only neutralizes it. In other words, renders it non-toxic... Which is also accomplished by shipping in a lower ph...
Where does the ammonia come from? The fishes bootay! Lol it's fish waste.

[PAR23]

What might cause a high PH drop in my tank. My tap water is about 7.3 and aged is about 7.5. My tank is 6 or below.

What is your TDS, kh and GH? Important data to know to figure out why your pH is dropping.

[jimg]

most of the ammonia comes from them breathing too.
Most of the time I make my tanks whatever the bag is ph/temp wise. Then acclimate them to what I want over a weeks time. If the temp is far off I will float them for 20 mins.
have had problems acclimating slow and never had problems drop and plop.
beside the gh will take quite awhile to effect them, their slime coat helps control conditions

breathing is what mostly lowers the ph...not add ammonia.....oops!

[Melissa]

Ahh, I wondered if their respiration could also contribute Jim. Very interesting, thanks for the tidbit I never knew that.

[jimg]

If a fish is stressed inside a shipping bag, it's for a reason. Both methods can work- they both get the fish out of the darn bag... but with a drip method, even removing 'some' of the toxic bag water and replacing with tank water- the fish is more likely to suffer ammonia burns and additional stress.+1

[jimg]

Ahh, I wondered if their respiration could also contribute Jim. Very interesting, thanks for the tidbit I never knew that.I slipped on that one, got my ammonia and ph crossed!

[mi-ko]

What might cause a high PH drop in my tank. My tap water is about 7.3 and aged is about 7.5. My tank is 6 or below.

Hello Does anyone know how low PH can drop before discus cannot tolerate it ? My PH test result is always very yellow and I don't know what exactly PH is in my tank. It could be 3 or 4??? My discus seem to be OK but I am curious.

[Discus Origins]

As long as the change is gradual discus can tolerate and be fine in ph at 3.5-4.0 in fact that's natural parameters for some Heckel varieties.

[mi-ko]

Thank you! I have been looking for the answer and have not been able to find it. Now I feel better about low PH in my tank.

[jimg]

Thank you! I have been looking for the answer and have not been able to find it. Now I feel better about low PH in my tank.why is your ph that low? what will happen when you do a water change? do you have replacement water the same ph? If it got that low from nitrates it will swing way back up after a wc. know what it is is the best.

[mi-ko]

Hi Jim
I really don't know what causes a big PH drop. I do 30-50 % WC 2-3 times a week and my tap water PH is 8.1, alkalinity 15.7 and total hardness 11.8 (listed by water district). PH drops to 6 or lower in about 1hour or so. I wish I know what causes this big drop but since my tank water PH is pretty low before WC, mixing with tap water does not seem to bother discus too much.


WA hip

[jimg]

something don't sound right. even with a low kh it should not drop like that. get test kits (I prefer liquid drops) and test the kh and gh and see what that is in your tank