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View Full Version : who uses straight RO???



shoveltrash
01-16-2012, 10:43 AM
hi all - I'm considering installing a RO system, and piping it directly to a water storage container......
I've read loads here regarding mixing tap/RO - but I'm interesting in keeping it simple, just using straight RO. my understanding is that I would need to add minerals, "100% remineralized RO"from research her I have found this info:
add
RO Right to add GH
Ph Stable as the KH buffer
Kent's Discus Essentials for Trace Elements.


I'd like to hear from people who use straight RO -- what do you add to your water? how much? guidelines???
thanks!
:)

shoveltrash
01-16-2012, 10:44 AM
ps - I have KCl softened water, so adding my tap to the mix will not add back the minerals I believe Discus need, correct?

Bud
01-16-2012, 06:09 PM
Access your water before your softener,save alot of time and $$$.JMO

shoveltrash
01-16-2012, 09:41 PM
thanks Bud, I'm glad someone posted here! :D
long story......but I can't access the water before the softener (whole house system). the only output is up at my horse barn :(. plus it puts forth water with orange mud-like sludge in it (!). the filtration & softening system was installed prior to my owning the home, & was essential for the well being of the home plumbing & appliances.
the reason I'm thinking of RO (& DI) is because I want a *blank slate.* I just lost a fish, & no idea why. plus I have a new group coming in......so that's why I'm considering it.

I really wanted to hear from people who use straight RO......I know they're out there. breeders especially?
perhaps to start I could cut my softened tap w/RO - if only to decrease the TDS & pH. then perhaps consider adding some essential minerals?

anyone else?????

Bud I'd like to give you a hug :big grin:. I feel like I'm posting in a vacuum!

Second Hand Pat
01-16-2012, 09:46 PM
Trish, I'm transitioning my adult tanks to an RO/tap mix but leaving my growouts in tap. What size is your new group?

Glenn36
01-16-2012, 10:09 PM
Access your water before your softener,save alot of time and $$$.JMO

Trish, I agree with Bud. I know you said your output line comes from another building BUT... this line comes into your house somewhere then enters your water softener/filter system. Find this line and consider hooking up your RO system off of this. My installer said it was better to hook up the ro unit to well water over softner water.

shoveltrash
01-16-2012, 10:31 PM
My installer said it was better to hook up the ro unit to well water over softner water.Glenn I've heard the opposite! my well water is so full of particulate that the RO membranes will be shot to H*LL in no time flat. interesting......wonder why your installer says that? hmmmm....you are both right though, it would indeed save $. esp considering I'm using KCl pellets for softening. but my well house is not close at ALL to my aquariums/water storage barrel :(. more food for thought. if I set up the RO unit in the well house......then I'd have to run 100' of hose to fill the barrel.
I'm going to call the folks at Buckeye tomorrow and barrage them with questions, I'll be sure to ask about this :D. thanks so much!!!


What size is your new group?4.5"
Pat honestly I am so FREAKED OUT about the recent mysterious loss of my Discus :cry:. as I said above, I want a CLEAN SLATE for the new fish.

seriously cannot thank you enough for posting your opinons/questions/advice/etc.
'makes my wheels turn! (they're a bit rusty, squeaks when I think on something to long LOL)

Second Hand Pat
01-16-2012, 10:53 PM
Trish, your recent loss may or may not be your water. Also at 4.5 the new group are not ready for RO water as still have quite a bit to growing to do. Still, I know you are wondering "what the heck" happened with the one fish.

shoveltrash
01-17-2012, 04:45 AM
so perhaps a RO/tap mix? with some added minerals?

I'm now losing the 2nd Discus same as the first - the only symptoms is swim bladder issues. the other Angelfish in tank completely unaffected.
I can't lose my new fish!!!!!!

pcsb23
01-17-2012, 07:47 AM
Trish I have used RO water now for many years, in fact since we have been in the "new" house (about 1997 I think :o) ... many reason why I started but basically the water from that tap was too variable so ...

I have tried just about every way I can think of to re-min ro, from ro waste, filtered tap, reef salt, home made re-min salts and commercial re-min salts. If you have to or want to use ro then I would strongly advise using a commercial re-min salts or make your own re-min salts. I'd also advise looking into multi membrane units as these produce less waste water, and make sure your input pressure is good, if necessary use a booster pump, this will make higher quality water and produce less waste also. I now have a commercial sized ro unit of some 4,000 US gpd, fortunately my mains pressure is good and I used low pressure membranes.

By using commercial or home made salts you can guarantee the product water. Using ro waste just means you are adding back the containments you wanted to remove and much the same applies with filtered tap.

Not sure what brands of re-min salts you can get in the USA, over this side of the pond I use TMC Tropic Remin and TMC Pro Discus blended together 50/50 or Preis remin salts. I have also used Sera too all of which are good. They are easy to use and cost effective to imo/e just get a conductivity pen meter (or a tds one) pick a number and add salts until you get there. A conductivity of between 200 and 250 (tds approx 100 - 150) is a good start point.

Also fwiw the very large commercial units include a water softener stage which may well be the same sort of thing you have in the house ...

Sean Buehrle
01-17-2012, 08:08 AM
so perhaps a RO/tap mix? with some added minerals?

I'm now losing the 2nd Discus same as the first - the only symptoms is swim bladder issues. the other Angelfish in tank completely unaffected.
I can't lose my new fish!!!!!!

If I were you I would scrap the idea of keeping discus with other fish.

I have in the past had every problem you can think of, I killed plenty. All of them revolved around mixing tools from other tanks, no water changes and tank mates.

If you remove all the possibilities you will stop losing fish.

TURQ64
01-17-2012, 08:49 AM
I use straight RO. I have since the eighties....I use the waste water for my minerals. Unlike Paul, my water source is excellent, just high in carbonates..

Bud
01-17-2012, 10:30 AM
thanx for electronic hug;)but I feel ya,when I first joined here and was collecting my group Iwould freak out when no-one answered right away!I too am looking to invest in an ro this week just to get my ph and tds in check(8.3-almost 300 ppm)and also have alot of silicates and iron(a big no-no).Also agree with Sean,no other fish either.From the sounds of your water I wouldnt think just dilluting you tap would be a bad idea at all.If you dont have meters I would difinately get some(theyre pretty cheap too)JMO

tolga
01-17-2012, 10:44 AM
I hope my question falls within the spirit of the discussion. I too have been planning to use straight RO water for my wild heckel tank still in the planning stage. I don't think I can trust London tap water in terms of mixing it with the RO water even if I was to use it after it has been past through the carbon blocks of my RO unit. It is simply unpredictable. I was going to provide Pure RO water constantly dripping into one side of my sump with a float Wales or two for added safety. There will be a hole on the other side of the sump at the surface level for over flow and this will be connected to a PVC pipe and to my outside drain. I could control the automatic drip system by connecting a solenoid (sorry about he spelling) valve which will engage in the evenings. Now the question is about the addition of essential minerals. Can I use one of those Kent dosing units suspended above the sump to gravity feed sachem replenish or some thing similar on a continuous basis in the form of slow drips? Would this work? The only issue is Wheather I'll be able to set it up so that it will only come on at night? I wondered if there was a better system for more accurate dosing. I'm not familiar with more expensive dosing pumps that are said to be on a timer. Anyhow, plan is to match the water parameters of the supplier in the beginning and than gradually reduce the amount of added minerals until I achieve pure or almost pure RO water depending on the conductivity reading of the product water that will come from my RO unit once I tweak it to make it more effective. I know this question concerns some of the issues that have been raised in two other treads that are currently running on SD on the use of drip method but I thought I could post it here as I'm mainly grappling with the question of mineral additives and the best method of adding them. Cheers. Tolga

Bud
01-17-2012, 08:26 PM
I was wonderin if Trish had iron ladden water and isnt there a certain type of bacteria that thrives in iron water?And isnt swim bladder ailments usually attributed to bacterial problems?IDK,someone will correct me if Im wrong.@tolga,know anyone in the medical field?I here IV drip devices work excellent.

Chicago Discus
01-17-2012, 09:01 PM
I use an RO/aged tap mix for my breeders, My babies and the rest of the adults get aged tap I was using straight tap but after converting to aged I have noticed a huge difference in stress level during water changes ....it seems to work for me sometimes if I know pair is going to spawn I add straight RO....Trish don't beat yourself up sometimes no matter what we do we just lose the fish....I guess its just nature....but I do think its a good idea to use RO if water is bad.....

Second Hand Pat
01-17-2012, 09:03 PM
I was wonderin if Trish had iron ladden water and isnt there a certain type of bacteria that thrives in iron water?And isnt swim bladder ailments usually attributed to bacterial problems?IDK,someone will correct me if Im wrong.@tolga,know anyone in the medical field?I here IV drip devices work excellent.

You thinking sulfur bacteria?

TURQ64
01-17-2012, 09:18 PM
Iron bacteria leave a red slime around the inside of your toilet..Iron straight just leaves a rust streak in the tub....Iron filters..That's what PP is for..recharging iron filters.

tolga
01-18-2012, 08:42 AM
Bud, thank you for your response to my query. Unfortunately I don't know anyone in the medical field, well at least not closely anyway. But I can appreciate the fact that the medical IV drip systems would be very accurate. The difficulty would be to get hold of one of these and to calibrate it to fit my needs. This is why I was looking into something more straightforward and less complicated such as the Kent product I mentioned which relies on gravity to drip feed the mineral mixture. I also wondered if I could set up a seperate chamber in the sump with some freshwater miracle mud that is said to be full of minerals and trace elements. However this could pose problems and make it difficult to accurately manage the addition of minerals. So as you can see I'm entering the field of pure speculation here. I think I need to do more research and perhaps talk to some marine people as they might have some experience in using more safisticated dosing pumps. Trish, I'm very sorry for your recent losses. I hope you can somehow identify the cause of these blader problems. I'm afraid the issue of excess iron is out of my liege so I wouldn't want to muddy the waters here, but I could say this for what it's worth. If it is established that the problem is caused by the presence of bacteria in
your product water, then there are ways of dealing with this. How about getting hold of a simple ozonizer and connecting it's output directly into the water but where the product water from the RO water would be stored for water changes. You would only need to add a small quantity of ozone and only for a brief period before you add the minerals. I would have thought that this would sterilise the water before it is added to the main tank...

shoveltrash
01-18-2012, 09:10 AM
If I were you I would scrap the idea of keeping discus with other fish.yep, done. the AF tank is now strictly Angelfish again......
my new tank is Discus-only (with 'tools' dedicated to that tank only!).


I use straight RO. I have since the eighties....even for young (say 4.5") fish? do you add minerals to the straight RO?


I hope my question falls within the spirit of the discussionindeed it does :). interesting setup - I'd love to have a drip system, & sump. but for now the logistics of RO are challenging enough for me! LOL good luck with your system set up tolga! the mineral dosage conundrum sounds complicated.


Trish I have used RO water now for many years, in fact since we have been in the "new" house (about 1997 I think ) ... many reason why I started but basically the water from that tap was too variable so ...
Not sure what brands of re-min salts you can get in the USA, over this side of the pond I use TMC Tropic Remin and TMC Pro Discus blended together 50/50 or Preis remin salts. I have also used Sera too all of which are good. They are easy to use and cost effective to imo/e just get a conductivity pen meter (or a tds one) pick a number and add salts until you get there. A conductivity of between 200 and 250 (tds approx 100 - 150) is a good start point.I've got a TDS meter...my reading are similar to Bud's (altho a tad bit higher TDS, typically 400+). Kens Discus Essentials I THINK is a good source for the correct minerals here in the States. (someone correct me if I'm wrong)
it's encouraging to hear of others who face the same challenges.



I too am looking to invest in an ro this week just to get my ph and tds in check(8.3-almost 300 ppm)and also have alot of silicates and iron(a big no-no).hmmmm. I DO have iron, in fact even with double filtration I get a slight film of iron in my water storage barrel (!). so this has me wondering if it is indeed the problem:
I was wonderin if Trish had iron ladden water and isnt there a certain type of bacteria that thrives in iron water?And isnt swim bladder ailments usually attributed to bacterial problems?IDK,someone will correct me if Im wrong.reason perhaps to install a UV sterilizer in my water storage tank? (I had another thread started up asking this)



If you remove all the possibilities you will stop losing fish.Sean that's what I'm trying to do :). I hope you're right!!!


Trish don't beat yourself up sometimes no matter what we do we just lose the fish....I guess its just nature....but I do think its a good idea to use RO if water is bad.....ha ha too late - I've given myself 2 virtual black eyes, a bloody nose, and various other bruises over this! so I've beat myself up pretty good :crazy:.

I talked to Russ at Buckeye, he was WONDERFUL and spent ages talking to me about RO. so I ordered a RO system, should arrive in the next couple of days. once I get it installed I'll pipe it to a separate barrel & try a tap/RO mix in main storage barrel - measuring to see what ratio is best for good pH/TDS. 'thinking I should invest in a UV sterilizer now......for iron or sulfer (?) bacteria potential????





again, THANK YOU SO MUCH for all of the replies!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D
I finally felt so sorry for the remaining Discus that i had him PTS.........laying flat on the bottom is no way to live.
:cry:

TURQ64
01-18-2012, 11:16 AM
I guess I didn't make that clear..I guess I am one of the few that now, due to my location, uses nothing but RO..either product water, or waste(reject)..or a combo of the two, but no tap water is used here...Too much hardness, and a few guys with a monkey wrench adding the chloramines...I raise fry and juvies in a combo of the two, using the reject for remineralisation. It's already been thru a pile of filtration, whereas my tap isn't..I have trace Iron at times, so that's also a consideration on not using my tap.My plumbing is either cpvc,pvc, or PEX, so there's little contamination from household sources...
When I lived in the SF Bay Area, I used primarily tap, but then and there, the water was 'Discus perfect'...then they also discovered the cheaper Chloramine route, so BINGO!..my first RO...

Bud
01-18-2012, 11:53 AM
What kind/brand of filter did you get?And what if-instead of using a uv sterilizer,people could add alittle chlorine to their storage barrels at the start of the fill process?Does the chlorine have to be in contact with bacteria for longer than that?I have to ariate the crap out of my water to expell chlorine and CO2 anyways.My barrel smells like a pool sometimes and goes through a simple carbon filter first.Just a thought.......

Cullymoto
09-02-2012, 01:29 PM
<=== pure R/O water user. I age the r/o water in a 55gal tank to use in my 125gal show tank. I have never mixed tap, and add just the bare minimum of minerals back to the water. I use "Kent Discus Essential" trace mineral additive at less than the recommended dosage. I also add a very small pinch of acquarium salt with every other water change (planted tank - plants dont care for the salt) I use "nutrafin KH booster" with the water change as well as "API perfect ph 6.5" at the recommended dosage. My discus are happy, healthy, and threaten to spawn with every water change.

aquaworks1
09-03-2012, 02:16 PM
I used pure Reverse Osmosis Water in my Breeding tank with good results.I aged my R/O in seperate container,I just Aerated it.And used a Powerhead attached to some tubing you can get at Home Depot to Refill my breeding tank after water changes.My Breeding pair thrived.Good luck with whatever you do.

shoveltrash
09-03-2012, 04:08 PM
thanks for the replies! it's been almost eight months now, and I'm still using RO water, reconstituted with RO Right. initially I didn't age/aerate, but realized (after putting the poor fish thru some pH swings) that the pH difference was 1 point +! so now I age/aerate as well.
my Discus are thriving, growing, doing fantastic. I've got 7 6" fish in my 65. 5 which have grown from 3.5-4" fish :).
they are healthy & happy -- I typically do 75% WCs a day. add to that 50% changes on my Angelfish tank, and I'm really putting my Buckeye RO Unit to work LOL. it is a 100gpd unit, and it produces 100gpd. looking into a booster pump, to increase output & efficiency.......I also need to divert my waste water line (a big project), because the septic drain field is a bit wet in one spot, oooops.

thanks Cullymoto for resurrecting this thread! :D
looking back I really did agonize over this. HUGE thanks to the folk here at SD -- without their help & knowledge I wouldn't have become a successful Discus keeper.

*edited to add: forgot to say that I do also run a UV sterilizer in my aging barrel.

jimg
09-03-2012, 08:20 PM
thanks for the replies! it's been almost eight months now, and I'm still using RO water, reconstituted with RO Right. initially I didn't age/aerate, but realized (after putting the poor fish thru some pH swings) that the pH difference was 1 point +! so now I age/aerate as well.
my Discus are thriving, growing, doing fantastic. I've got 7 6" fish in my 65. 5 which have grown from 3.5-4" fish :).
they are healthy & happy -- I typically do 75% WCs a day. add to that 50% changes on my Angelfish tank, and I'm really putting my Buckeye RO Unit to work LOL. it is a 100gpd unit, and it produces 100gpd. looking into a booster pump, to increase output & efficiency.......I also need to divert my waste water line (a big project), because the septic drain field is a bit wet in one spot, oooops.

thanks Cullymoto for resurrecting this thread! :D
looking back I really did agonize over this. HUGE thanks to the folk here at SD -- without their help & knowledge I wouldn't have become a successful Discus keeper.

*edited to add: forgot to say that I do also run a UV sterilizer in my aging barrel.
Instead of a booster pump I use 2-75gpd units. a 75 has a higher removal rate than the 100 and lower pressure helps the % and longevity of the membranes.
I use practically pure ro, I add 3/4 tsp of ro right and 1/8 tsp sera mineral salts to 55 gallons, which is hardly anything, but along with about 1/2 cup of crushed coral in my hob on a 180g tank keeps all parameters for what I feed and stocking pretty stable. pure ro swings too much for every 3 day 40%+- wc's I do. If you change water everyday You most likely won't have any swings. I like top be able to loose a day or be prepared for not being able to do my routine without having to panic!

DLock3d
09-03-2012, 09:47 PM
You're not saying you age your RO are you Trish?

shoveltrash
09-04-2012, 10:15 AM
You're not saying you age your RO are you Trish?yes, I age my RO water. it must have dissolved CO2 in it, because the pH changes to a neutral 7 from an initial pH of 5.5-6, after aging/aerating. I can't explain it, I just go along with it LOL.



Instead of a booster pump I use 2-75gpd units. a 75 has a higher removal rate than the 100 and lower pressure helps the % and longevity of the membranes. huh! that's an interesting solution. does 'higher removal rate' = less waste water? not sure where I could fit another RO unit.....hmmmmm. the one I have is under my kitchen sink, then piped out thru the wall to a storage container. unfortunately this water is our "coffee water" too LOLOL. here lately I've been upping the WCs which impacts the water available for making coffee :crazy:. ah well!


I use practically pure ro, I add 3/4 tsp of ro right and 1/8 tsp sera mineral salts to 55 gallons, which is hardly anything, but along with about 1/2 cup of crushed coral in my hob on a 180g tank keeps all parameters for what I feed and stocking pretty stable. pure ro swings too much for every 3 day 40%+- wc's I do. If you change water everyday You most likely won't have any swings. I like top be able to loose a day or be prepared for not being able to do my routine without having to panic!do you know your tank water TDS? just curious. I add RO Right and aim for around 100tds (typically 2 heaping tsp per 55g). one day without a wc hasn't been a problem (touch wood), it does happen occasionally.

mirador
09-04-2012, 05:08 PM
HI
I do use RO. Put the Ro in after any equipement that you have such as iron removers or water softeners.Then the RO unit only has to remove sodium and chlorine instead of magnesium,calcium etc. Then reconstitute it with nice white ice melter ( calcium chloride) epsom salts (magnesium sulfphate) and baking soda (bicarbonate) for KH. THis is all established planted tank protocol and works OK. There is ,of course one discus specific problem: The planted tank guys pump RO into the tank and then add the powders. You cannot do that with discus.Therefore ,as you empty your storage vessel you will have to top off the RO/powder mix which can get tricky..but it's OK,possible and I do it.

Buckeye Field Supply
09-18-2012, 07:18 AM
Glenn I've heard the opposite!
Trish - you heard right!
If your goal is to protect/help an RO or RODI system, always feed it softened water is you have the choice. Just like hard water causes scale to build up on your faucets and other plumbing fixtures, it will deposit scale INSIDE the RO membrane. Over time, this will ruin the membrane.

On commercial RO systems where the RO membranes costs many hundred $, a water softener is a routine pretreatment to the RO system.

Russ

Buckeye Field Supply
09-18-2012, 07:20 AM
The carbon filter should be removing the chlorine...

Buckeye Field Supply
09-18-2012, 07:34 AM
does 'higher removal rate' = less waste water?

The jargon you're looking for here is "rejection rate." Rejection rate is the % of TDS in the feedwater that the membrane send to the waste water. A membrane with a high rejection rate will yield cleaner permeate (a.k.a. RO water).

Here are some specs for membranes we use:
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd293/BuckeyeFS/ROMembraneFactorySpecs-1.jpg
Russ