Iron bacteria, water softener, and sodium

[Niblet]

Hi all,
This is my first post, tho I have been reading for months. We are new to discus. Our addiction of choice has been a large pond, 15,000 gallons with koi. We both miss the koi during the winter and our children gifted us with a 65 gallon aquarium and ecosystem sump this fall. After setting up the aquarium (tho not the sump yet, soon) we added 6 4-5" discus from Hans. We have a deep well, and a water softening unit for the house. We fill the pond directly from the well and always have a bit of orange slime from the iron bacteria during wkly water changes. It disappears after a day or so and never bothers the koi. My water is naturally soft.....I have had it tested at the Penn State lab, and always have to "cook" it for the koi with the addition of baking soda and Epsom salts. Total alkalinity as CaCO3 is 70 mg/L, hardness as CaCo3 77, TDS 107, Ca 26, Na 3 EC .18. When I test with the gH and kH drops it is always 4 for both from the well, which is consistent. We use the water softener for the house so as not to have to deal with the iron bacteria issues.....orange stains on clothes, toilets, etc. After reading hours of posts on SD, I am thinking the water from the well may not be best for the discus (due to iron bacteria and residue.) The water storage tank gets the orange slimey stuff, etc. I used it once and then switched to the house tap water. I also sent another water sample to Penn State from the tap (run thru the softener) last week just to double check my numbers and also because I know well water can have some variability. The main "problem" I have read about in the use of water from softening units is the amount of sodium (exchanged for Ca to "soften" the water). My water is actually already so soft I thought the increase in the sodium level might actually still be in the "safe" range. Results came back today and the sodium level increased from 3 to 43 mg/L which appears to be just at the upper safe threshold from what I have been able to find. I know that I can switch from sodium to potassium in the softener, but it is hard to find and 5 times more expensive, and if there is not a need, I would prefer to just stay with the system the way it is. So...in a nutshell....


1. Is iron bacteria a concern for the discus? (Have had the water tested for us and it "passed" as safe from the water softener).
2. Is a sodium level of 43 mg/L a concern?
3. Is a low level of calcium a concern? Is a certain level essential, and, if so, how should it be added without overly increasing hardness.

Hope this is clear. I really have searched to find the answers before asking the forum. According to Penn State the sodium level is safe....but they are not discus experts!

Thanks in advance.

Fran

[Cowboy]

We too have iron bacteria. I have had no problem raising the discus in this water but perhaps different levels would affect their health in different ways. Ours was bad enough that it would stain the toilet bowls and anywhere there was a slow drip. Once in a while you could detect a slight rotten egg smell. Two years ago we installed a hydrogen peroxide injector in our well. End of problem, completely. I am a dairy farmer and we put it in to benefit the cattle. So far I have seen no adverse affect on the discus.

[Niblet]

Thanks. In thinking more about this, I guess even if the well water with the iron bacteria was safe for the fish, the cleaning of the storage tank, equipment, and the aquarium (of the orange slime) makes me prefer not to use it. Does anyone know if the sodium level is ok and also if I should add calcium carbonate or baking soda to replenish some calcium? If so....proper amount? My pH runs about 7.8 after aging for 24 hours and is stable. Seems as if adding baking soda would be easy and won't affect gH, but I am afraid that it might add sodium, so wondered about CaCo3.....like a small amount of crushed coral in the pool filter sand???? I am not in any rush, but am having trouble getting info about proper/safe levels of sodium and calcium for discus. I don't have enough posts to attach the 2 water sample results, but would be happy to do so if someone wanted to see them. I'm not sure if I'm being clear.....Thanks again for responding!

[shoveltrash]

Two years ago we installed a hydrogen peroxide injector in our well. End of problem, completely.
really! good info :D

Niblet I'm not water expert, so really can't advise regarding safe mineral levels - but look forward to other's opinions here!

[Niblet]

Ok....I have just been reading about Hydrogen peroxide injectors. Probably would have been a better solution for my iron bacteria issues originally.....but when we put the Culligan unit in in '86, I didn't know of that as an option. Am hoping I can just keep using the tap water. The ecosystem sump (which the kids found new in box at estate sale) operates with 10 pounds of "mud" in the main refugium compartment. this mud (freshwater) is supposed to contain some essential minerals and is also supposed to support plaant growth. Maybe once it is set up and running I will send another sample off and see if it is replenishing any of the calcium. My gut instinct is that Ca is prob important....just wondering how to add it safely back into the system regularly....thanks again for the replies!!!!!!!

[mmorris]

When you have iron bacteria, as I understand it, you have iron. The filtration method depends on the type of iron. If the iron is still in solution (the water is drawn clear) then a softener will remove it and iron bacteria shouldn't be a problem. If you draw the water and it is already cloudy, it is likely the iron is out of solution and you need an iron filter. A softener won't do it. Iron is lethal for fish. I lost quite a few before I figured out what to do. The first step is to get the water tested for iron. I have to add calcium, magnesium and sodium bicarbonate to my water.

[Niblet]

Thanks...I have had it tested for iron....it is 0.10 mg/L. That low level is what prompted us to try and figure out why we were getting the orange stains with such low iron levels. After discussing with the water lab at Penn State, realized we had iron bacteria and they (the bacteria) were the culprits. Apparently you don't need much iron for them to leave that orange film on everything! I have had full panel irrigation tests run on the water. Individual tests at the Ag lab are $5-$15, and the full panel (I get the irrigation water panel done....most comprehensive) is $55. They are fast also....usually within a week. I work at the Un of Delaware, but the lab here can't do all the testing. Can you tell me how you determined the additives you use...and how you add them?
Thanks so much!

[mmorris]

My tds is about 60 and my kh is 1, if that. My ph will drop 0.5 or more in a day, so I add one tablespoon calcium chloride (ice melt), 1/2 tablespoon sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) and one teaspoon magnesium (epsom salts) per 25 gallons. There are around 2ooo mg sodium in a teaspoon so your salt level should be fine. Fish of all ages need calcium, but I couldn't tell you what the necessary level is.

[Niblet]

Thank you soooo much. That is very similar to what I add to the koi pond in the warmer months.....tho I'm adding pounds instead of teaspoons! My water is a bit harder than yours, so I don't have issues with pH in the winter with the pond, and it (the pH) has been stable in the house from the softener. I just wish I could find a table of some sort that indicates a range of "normal" mineral levels for discus. I also use the calcium salt melt and was wondering if that would be all I needed to add back in. I just want to make sure it is necessary and SAFE first. I really do appreciate your input!

[Niblet]

Just wondering.....if I run water directly from the well into my storage tank, could I add hydrogen peroxide to that water to kill iron bacteria? If so....anyone have an idea about dosage and would it be safe to use in 24 hours? Thanks1

[Cowboy]

You should be able to, however, H2O2 (hp) is a fairly strong chemical and will cause skin burns if spilled. Ideally you would have a peristaltic pump installed that automatically injected the hp into your water line everytime your well pump turned on. Then everything from that point on is cleaned up. If you are only doing this for your fish it may be cost prohibitive and then manually squirting the appropriate amount of hp would make the most sense. When we first had ours set up we had to use test strips to get the pump calibrated. The reason I feel it would be safe is this: when our well pump turns on the hp pump also turns on and automatically injects hp into the aquifer that the well pump sits in (we have a hose taped to the well pipes running the entire 500' down to the well pump) so essentially our well is a giant holding tank. So, during heavy use periods we may be using this treated water within minutes of being treated.

[Niblet]

Thank-you...again! I also had concerns about the food grade peroxide. I'm almost a little old lady and not as strong as I used to be.....so safety issues are always a concern for John who worries about me! I have just started adding CaCl and Epson salts to my storage tank, and that seems to be working well as far as replenishing Ca and Magnesium. Water is still rather soft (4 drops kH (no change) and now also 4 drops gH with the addition of CaCl and epson salts. BUT, I realized yesterday that using the softened water to water the house plants is also a problem(something about sodium absorption ratio). The well water is better for eveything "alive", but the iron bacteria cause such a mess in the storage tanks and aquariums I hate the cleaning process. Didn't you get orange slime in your tanks? Plus I have to remember to switch the valves in the basement that bypass the units....not always good at that so then we end up with orange everywhere again! I am worried about the cost of getting the unit put in for the whole house, since the unit we have now is fine for everythiing else and the salt is rel inexpensive. I wonder if H2o2 and UV in the storage tanks might be another alternative. I guess more experimentation is in order. Might have to put John in charge of the peroxide! Will also see what it would cost to have a h2o2 unit installed in the house. Just another steep learning curve for us. I so appreciate your input.

[Cowboy]

Orange slime. Now that i think about it i did have that in the areas not accessible to the fish. It makes me wonder if the plecostamus took care of it. I've never used/needed a holding tank so the aquarium itself was the only place I had water. During growout phases I typically wipe down the glass and do bb. Once in the show tank there has always been one or more plecos. My experience with the iron bacteria in the tank was that it would crystallize and slowly restrict the water flow into the tank through the hose I used to drip new water in, much like an icicle can grow during winter.

[shoveltrash]

fwiw, I had similar problems with my well water......
the simplest option for me was to install an RO unit. I had orange slime/iron bactueria in my water storage barrel, my aquarium, it was awful! however I have extremely hard water as well, which is not your problem. what I also did was put a UV sterilizer in my water storage barrel as well. no more slime!
I'm still interested in the h202 injection thing, but need to research it more.
good luck with your water! I know how frustrating it can be.

[Niblet]

Thanks Trish.....can you tell me what size UV unit you used? I was thinking of trying one that can just be placed in the storage tank (55 gallon brutes).

[shoveltrash]

13w. rated for 150g.
(sorry for the late response!)

[Bud]

Trish can I ask you were you got youre uv from?Is it a unit that is supposed to have water pumped through/around it?or is it just a bulb in a" test tube"hanging by a wire in your tank?(sorry for theft of thread)just wanted a qiuck "quiet"response

[Niblet]

After trying to figure all this out on my own, I sent a long e-mail to Joe Gargas. He called me back immediately, went over both analyses from Penn State and made concrete suggestions based on those reports. He talked to me for at least 30 minutes and it was SUCH a pleasure to speak with a water expert and fish (including discus) expert who was so generous with his time. I feel confident (first time for everything - ha!) I am on my way to sorting out what is best for the fish, inside and out, the plants, and us....and it is a very simple fix! We will replace the water softener with a manganese green sand filter which back washes with potassium permanganate. I am waiting for a call back from Culligan to see if they can convert the exisiting unit now. Whew!

[shoveltrash]

Bud it's a submerisble unit, like this http://www.ebay.com/itm/13-w-JBJ-Submariner-SUBMERSIBLE-UV-C-Sterilizer-Filter-/110696448149#vi-content


We will replace the water softener with a manganese green sand filter which back washes with potassium permanganate. I am waiting for a call back from Culligan to see if they can convert the exisiting unit now. Whew!interesting solution.......I'd like to learn more about that (off to Google!).

[Bud]

Thats comical...just ordered two 12 hrs ago!

[Niblet]

Our well water is really very good for fish....aside from the iron issues. The MGS filter will only remove the iron and won't add sodium or deplete Ca and Mg.....will be good for us, plants, and fish. I din't want to change the system because of the expense, but in the long run it just makes more sense.

[Alight]

Sounds like you figured out that Discus like very soft water, particularly for breeding. In fact it has to be very soft for good hatching rates. However, as brewmaster and I have found, fry need at least a little Calcium in the water or they get deformities. This may not be necessary with very pure water, but with the widespread surfactant (from detergents) contamination in the world, it seems to be necessary. Your tap calcium range would be fine for both adults and fry. Just a tad high for breeding. Your water would be fine from the tap. Just the ugliness of the orange slime to take care of.

Also, pH 7.8 is high, not low, and baking soda will raise the pH, not lower it. Discus prefer acid pH (but do not require it), somewhere in the 6.4 - 6.8 range seems to be ideal, but don't worry to much about it if it is a bit higher. Easier to keep a steady pH in the higher range.

[Niblet]

Thanks so much Alight. Apparently the sodium level (43.5 ppm) from the tap (as opposed to 3 from the well) does have long term concerms, thus Joe's suggestion to not use the softened water. The iron filter will leave all parameters the same except for the iron, and won't change any of the other mineral content or have any dangerous residues. Yesterday, after speaking with Culligan, I learned I also have a neutralizer on my salt softening unit. According to them, my well pH was considered acid. Ha...they don't age the water before they test it. So, will not need the neutralizer now, either. Just well water with iron removed. Hopefully, with the iron filter solely, the fish will thrive (and, who knows, the pH may even drop a little!) It's fairly easy to replace the salt unit with the MGS unit, and I can use the old salt storage container as a nice add'l water storage tank....trying to look on the bright side. Thanks again for the input....such a steep learning curve!

[shoveltrash]

Niblet I'm actually considering a MGS filter.......I can't thank you enough for posting your 'process' :)
dissolved iron (& the bacteria that comes with it) is still a problem for me household-wide. RO has solved the issue for my fish, but I'd love to cut the RO with tap but never considered it because of the high iron/iron bacteria!

[Niblet]

I am comfirming the purchase/install tomorrow, so will let you know how it goes after it is up and running. I am confused why the Penn State lab showed such a low iron level. The last 2 water tests run by Culligan in '98 and 2005 showed 3 and 5 "grains" which apparently much higher than what showed up on the PSU lab results. Anyway...I KNOW I have an iron problem, regardless of the numbers, so am really hope this is a satisfactory solution. I do know the sand in the MGS filter will need to be replaced ev 5 to 8 years, and the Potassium Permanganate will need to be replenished ev 4 months or so....just like the salt. The Culligab guy wanted to sell me a birm unit. Joe had told me that is what he would say, and NOT to go with the birm. I don't remember why, but I told the Culligan guy the "fish expert" had told me to only go with the MGS filter....even though it is considered "old" technology. Anyway....will keep you posted!

[Niblet]

Trish, I tried to pm you...but I don't think it worked. Here is a link to an article from the Tampa Bay Aquarium Society that Joe wrote. I found it helpful....but like everything else on a forum, "take what you need and leave the rest"!

http://www.tbas1.com/TBASpages/salt_2.html

[shoveltrash]

thank you Fran!

[mmorris]

If your water is coming out acid from the well, they will probably use a media that will raise your ph. Iron doesn't filter out if the ph is below 7. I was told the media wouldn't change my water perimeters and the ph jumped from 7 to 9. How is the system working out?

[Niblet]

I was just thinking of writing to you this morning. I really appreciate the follow-up, as some of this is confusing for me. According to the Penn State analysis, my iron level was only 0.10 in BOTH samples. When I called Culligan about switching out the salt unit for a manganese green sand unit, they told me the iron levels in my last 2 sample were 3 and 5 grains respectively. This makes much more sense, as I KNOW we have stains from the well water in the house (when we run out of salt) , and the pond water turns murky with orange coated bubbles a few hours after water changes directly from the well. ANYway, the new unit is being installed this coming Tuesday. I currently have a neutralizer on the salt unit, so I will ask them if we need to keep that in order to facilitate the removal of the iron in the MGS filter. My pH from the well is just slightly acidic....6.8. It rises to 7.8, tho I am wondering if the neutralizer is adding to the pH rise. I am also a little worried about the fish during the changeover. I have quit adding anything to the water coming from the tap...only aging it. I think I am going to get another 55 gal Brute, fill all 3 with my current water before the unit is switched, then feed sparingly for a while and take a week or so to slowly switch over to the new MGS filtered water. I am really anxious to get the fish out of the current water, but, it was suggested to me to take my time switching over. Again...thanks so much for the feedback and I hope you won't mind if I pester you as I transition.....just hoping this is a good decision!

[mmorris]

I suspect Culligan and Penn State are not using the same units. My water was 1.0 mg/l (or ppm - same) out of the well and it was high enough to stain, smell foul, taste bad and kill the fish. The EPA recommends iron levels be below 0.3 mg/l. One grain is 17.1 mg/l. I've heard of people having 5, 10, even 15 mg/l but 3 grains would be 51.3 mg/l!!! I wonder if Penn State is using grains and Culligan is using mg/l. It should say on the paperwork. Would you post the numbers and measures they used? Its easy to get iron out of the water but the bacteria is another thing. You may have needed to do nothing except 'shock' the well with chlorine, or add chlorine injection to the current setup. If I remember correctly, you said the water softener got the iron bacteria out. I didn't think it did that, but then I don't have to deal with bacteria so I don't know. The water softener puts so very little salt into the water that the discus would never notice. Lots of people keep discus with softened water. I hear people have issues with pp - sometimes their water comes out of the tap 'purple'. I understand that's why companies got away from it. What media are you having installed that is supposed to kill the bacteria? Culligan and other companies like them have a vested interest in selling you very expensive setups. I had a couple of the companies come to my house, test the water and make system recommendations. Then I found a plumbing retailer who sold the same sort of system for a fraction of the cost and I paid a friend of mine to set it in. I still had excellent support from the manufacturers.
I was just thinking of writing to you this morning. I really appreciate the follow-up, as some of this is confusing for me. According to the Penn State analysis, my iron level was only 0.10 in BOTH samples. When I called Culligan about switching out the salt unit for a manganese green sand unit, they told me the iron levels in my last 2 sample were 3 and 5 grains respectively. This makes much more sense, as I KNOW we have stains from the well water in the house (when we run out of salt) , and the pond water turns murky with orange coated bubbles a few hours after water changes directly from the well. ANYway, the new unit is being installed this coming Tuesday. I currently have a neutralizer on the salt unit, so I will ask them if we need to keep that in order to facilitate the removal of the iron in the MGS filter. My pH from the well is just slightly acidic....6.8. It rises to 7.8, tho I am wondering if the neutralizer is adding to the pH rise. I am also a little worried about the fish during the changeover. I have quit adding anything to the water coming from the tap...only aging it. I think I am going to get another 55 gal Brute, fill all 3 with my current water before the unit is switched, then feed sparingly for a while and take a week or so to slowly switch over to the new MGS filtered water. I am really anxious to get the fish out of the current water, but, it was suggested to me to take my time switching over. Again...thanks so much for the feedback and I hope you won't mind if I pester you as I transition.....just hoping this is a good decision!

[Niblet]

Ok - whew...thanks.
Here are the Penn State numbers: all are mg/l except elec conductivity

Well Tap
Iron (Fe) 0.1 mg/l 0.1
Ph 6.8 7.6
Total Alk 70.0 77.0
Hardness as CaCO3 77.3 2
EC 0.17 0.18 mmhos/cm
TDS 107 112
Ca 26 0.50
Magnesium 3 0.10
Sulfer 3.2 3.5
Sodium 2.71 43.5
Sodium Absorp ratio 0.13 118.7 (this is BAD for any plants)

Sooooo.....I am now back to thinking that I don't have a bacterial issue (this was Penn State's best guess, but was not something Culligan ever diagnosed). I just pulled the Culligan reports I have. They are handwritten results with no units.

Hardness 13
Iron 3.4
pH 6.3
Nitrates 3
TDS 100

I do know that if I fill a white bucket with water from the well, it is clear. Four hours later it is murky green and eventually leaves an orange film on the sides and bottom of the bucket. In the house, if I run out of salt, I get orange stains on toilets, dishwater, etc., that can only be removed with iron out. Sooooo, I am now thinking (hoping?) that the real issue is the iron. I am ok with the cost of exchanging the salt unit with the MGS filter in terms of cost (it is 1/3 of what the salt softener cost). I just hope it works! I am aware of the purple water issue....which I believe might happen occassionally with improper backwashing with the PP. The good news is, it is readily seen, and all that needs to be done is to run the water until clear. That's the trouble with water! it can often be a real mess and look gin clear. Also, I could not find anyone that kept fish successfully in salt softened water. I was actually hoping that it was ok, but everything I could find recommended to not do so due to long term effects. I certainly believe you. I just wish folks that do so would have spoken up when I posted the question! I suppose if we do actually have some bacteria maybe the PP would kill them? I know I could have also switched to sodium salt for potassium, but this MGS filter will be much cheaper than paying for the potassium salts, which are up to $26 a bag here. At least the PP is inexpensive.....sigh. Again, thanks so much for your input....it really helps.

[mmorris]

It doesn't sound like you have iron bacteria. If you did, you wouldn't see just a coating of iron; you would see globs of it in the corners of your toilet tank. Iron bacteria is actually quite rare. I suspect your iron level is quite a bit higher than 0.1 mg/l. I don't think you would see iron discoloration at that level. Your iron is ferrous, or clear water iron. It is soluble in water until it hits air; then, the iron becomes ferric, or basically, falls out of solution. This is when your water changes color, or you may see bits of red on the floor of the tank. If your water drew cloudy, you would have ferric, or both, which is what I have. There are a couple of ways of getting ferrous iron out of the water. The first is ion exchange with a water softener, which is what you are doing. The second method is to put an air injector before the well pump, and an iron filter after the pump. The air injector turns the ferrous iron to ferric, when it can then be filtered out. There are a number of medias that can be used in the filter. Because your ph is below 7 out of the tap, you will probably need a media that boosts your ph up because as I understand it, iron will not easily fall out of solution unless the ph is above 7. Whatever media you use, watch the ph carefully because the medias don't tend to raise it just a little bit. I use a calcium media - carbonate, I think, and it raises my ph from 7 to 7.7. It's the best I can do. One media raised my ph to 9. The fish weren't too happy about that. If I were you, I would stay with the water softener. You might want to start a thread in the general discus discussion section and entitle it with something like 'Who Uses a Water Softener?' It might get attention from those who use a softener because of the calcium and magnesium in their water. One thing I discovered in my search for an affordable iron filter is that salesmen know very little about water. Surprisingly.
Martha

[mmorris]

Did you bring in the sample to Penn State and if so, did you draw it from the tap after the water passed through the softener? Culligan would have drawn it from the well pump.

[Niblet]

Hi - I shipped both samples to Penn state, one from the well and one from the softened tap....perhaps the iron had fallen out of solution by the time they analyzed. I can now see that the chart i took time to "organize" with the values (tap versus well) side by side, did not hold the formatting very well, so it is very hard to make sense of the numbers. The first value is the well, the 2nd is the tap. Three years ago we had a BIG problem with the koi and the folks on the koi forum said NOT to use the softened water....use it from the well. It was a devistating experience to loose most of our older original fish. Of course at that time I was using the Penn State well values which said the iron level was low. We have used the well water in the pond (adding baking soda and CaCl and Epsom salts to stabilize the pH), and the koi have been fine. I guess for them the sodium levels were bad and they must not have issues with the iron....sigh. I am also wanting to get rid of the sodium for my husband, who has high blood pressure, and also the plants. I do have first hand experience that the softened water is BAD for watering all the plants. The sodium absorption ratio really wreaks the soil. The only source of water directly from the well is down at the barn, and on an outside pump......an acre away. Sooo, anything that needs water with no sodium is labor intensive. Anyway, I totally agree with your statement about water salesmen...and even the state labs! I think like many problems, there is probably more than one solution. The MGS filter is due to be installed Tuesday ( it was $750). We are leaving the salt unit down there, and if the MGS filter is a disaster, then we can go back to the salt unit. I will make sure to ask them about the pH issues. I don't think the neutralizer we currently have adds much to the pH. The pH rise from gassing off is very similar from the well versus the tap. Ha....just wonder if the neutralizer is working....at least I have a much better understanding of water chemistry. I really do appreciate your input, and if I was doing this just for the fish (up to 5 tanks inside now), I might not go this route. It just seems like a good idea for fish, hubby, plants (many of which are large lotus that we over-winter inside.) I will keep you posted!

[shoveltrash]

The only source of water directly from the well is down at the barn, and on an outside pump......an acre away. Sooo, anything that needs water with no sodium is labor intensive. omg Fran, we're twins! this is EXACTLY my setup. can't remember if I posted this, but I changed my softening system over to KCl for the reasons you describe. I then just installed a RO system for the fish, and for 'purer' drinking water.
a simple solution for me.

[Niblet]

I thought about that alternative, but went with the MGS because it was cheaper in the long run. The KCl here at our Home Depot has gone up to $26/bag. And, I really don't need soft water....I just need my ol' well water with no iron. I met another older couple in the area that still uses their MGS filter with no issues. Hope we have the same experience. We are in a very rural area....mostly farmland and horses. I will let you know how this all owrks out....success or not.

[mmorris]

Ok - whew...thanks.
Here are the Penn State numbers: all are mg/l except elec conductivity

Well Tap
Iron (Fe) 0.1 mg/l 0.1
Ph 6.8 7.6
Total Alk 70.0 77.0
Hardness as CaCO3 77.3 2
EC 0.17 0.18 mmhos/cm
TDS 107 112
Ca 26 0.50
Magnesium 3 0.10
Sulfer 3.2 3.5
Sodium 2.71 43.5
Sodium Absorp ratio 0.13 118.7 (this is BAD for any plants)
.
Iron tests are supposed to measure both ferrous and ferric. So according to Penn State, the water softener does nothing about the iron. Didn't you say you only have a problem with iron if the water doesn't flow through the softener? The ph goes up 0.8 just going through the softener? Is that right? I found it so annoying when I was trying to learn about my water that every test measured differently. Lab people that I have spoken with don't know anything about water chemistry. They are hired to run the tests and report the numbers. I'm sure there are exceptions...

[Niblet]

I'm laughing because this is all so ridiculous. Here I've got reports from the Ag lab at Penn State that make no sense (yep....iron neglible, according to them both before and after water softener). Culligan results indicate my water is hard, acid, and has high levels of iron. I know I have iron....and running thru the softener takes care of that problem. I do not, however, have hard water. Penn state got that right, I think, as my drop tests indicate 4 drops kH and 4 drops gH from the well. That would coincide with the numbers Penn State reported....alkalinity 70 and hardess 77. TDS solids are just above 100. So, all I really need is the iron level to be reduced, then my water is really good for all of us, I think....). I really don't want to go the RO route, since I really don't need it. The KCl is so expensive now...and it would remove my Ca and Mg...which I would then need to reconstitute. Anyway.....as far as the neutralizer.....I hate to admit I didn't even remember we had a neutralizer! I think it was installed in 2005, and it has never been serviced or refilled. So I am thinking that it is just empty...or the media has exhausted itself. My well water is 6.8 and gases off to 7.6. My guess is that the water softener is able to get the iron out even tho the well water is just slightly acidic. And then I think the neutralizer is just passing the water without doing anything else. To be honest, at this point I am just hoping something works! Trying to figure it all out is probably just over my head. We have had horses, dogs, fancy chickens, fancy pigeons.....etc., and I think fish are the toughest. I can always get good veterinary care for the others, but finding fish/water "experts" is tough. I so appreciate you taking the time to muddle through this with me!

[Niblet]

Hmmmm...just wanted to clarify that I meant that the confusion with the labs was "ridiculous"....not anything that was said to help from Trish and Martha!

[mmorris]

Hmmmm...just wanted to clarify that I meant that the confusion with the labs was "ridiculous"....not anything that was said to help from Trish and Martha!
LOL Yea I got that. :) You are kind of in the same position I am in - I just wanted to get the iron out. Yes, if it wasn't for the fish, it would have been a lot less complicated. If your husband needs to limit his salt intake, I would ask his doctor if this level is alright before changing what doesn't appear to be broken. My ph of 7 wasn't high enough to get the iron out adequately. If you see rust stains, your water is probably over 0.3. You said your ph out of the well is 6.8 and then gases off. What is your ph out of the tap? That might tell you if the neutralizer still has media. Culligan's iron readings would make sense if their unit of measure was mg/l instead of grains. Are you sure it says grains? If so, I would call and ask them about that. Also, I would look for a local lab that does water sample readings. There should be a couple around. The one near me charges $10 for each thing I want tested. I would bring them a sample straight from the well for an iron reading.

[shoveltrash]

I really don't need soft water....I just need my ol' well water with no iron. I do not have hard water. I hear ya! the main difference btw our (you & i) issues is that I have a whopping amt of calcium in my well water........so your water situation could be much worse imho. I'll be very interested to see how the MGS works for you :).
(and btw my softening system uses way less 'salt' with the KCl - it's actually cheaper than NaCl! not that this applies to your situation)

and fyi Martha's advice is spot-on.

[Niblet]

Sooooo, MGS filter was set up yesterday. It is a Fleck 5600 plus a container that holds a 1.5 cube of green sand. The potassium permanganate tank is small.....holds 5 pounds and will need to be replenished every 8 months or so. Left the salt unit and neutralizer down there just in case. Interestingly, the neutralizer (with calcium carbonate inside) was still more than half full after being there for 6 years. I am by-passing it for now. So far the water is great. Hardness and alkalinity via drops are both now the same as the well water (both around 70 ppm) and no iron. I am anticipating that we may need to make some adjustments, but for now water parameters are good. (And it passed the shower test. I notice no difference in sudsing, tho since my water is somewhat soft anyway, didn't expect much difference there). pH was 6.8 out of the tap today, as usual. I am aging some to see what it will be when it gasses off. Thanks to you all and especially Joe Gargas, who has called me twice (unprompted) and been EXCEEDINGLY gracious with his time and expertise. I think it is too soon to feel relief, but I am optomistic! I also did find a chart on the mineral composition of the blackwater. I am sure there are others, but I actually had some trouble finding it. if anyone is interested here is one link: http://www.amazonian-fish.co.uk/ in the comparison link. Thanks again!

[mmorris]

So far the water is great.
What is the ph out of the tap? It is very important! I was pretty entheusiastic too until I discovered my ph changed from 7 to 9.

[Niblet]

I think I am not very good at being clear....so many variables.
pH
Well water: 6.8 to 7.6 after gassing off
Old tap (with salt softener AND calcium carbonate neutralizer): 6.8 to 7.8 after gassing off
New tap (greensand and NO neutralizer) 6.8 to ?? (will check after 24 hours).
The pH coming out of the tap is the same as the pH of the well, and both go up after gassing off. I am waiting to see now where the pH of the new tap will ne after gassing off. Does that make sense?
I was told that the well pH of 6.8 would probably still render the greensand iron removal effective, so I am by-passing the calcium carbonate neutralizer for now. I can always switch it back on....just wanted to see where pH ended up without it.
I think (maybe I'm wrong, tho!) that your pH rose as a result of a neutralizer media. The only things my water are exposed to now are greensand and potassium permananate. I certainly don't understand how all this works, but I have not been told that either would raise the pH. I expect running it thru the calcium carbonate could raise it, however, as it would increase the alkalinity. Well, that's the theory anyway....I have been running it and really haven't experienced a difference after gassing off between the well and the old tap's pH. I hope this makes sense....I often get things muddled!

[Niblet]

OK. pH up to 7 after 12 hours.

[mmorris]

I tried air injection and sand filter media first but because my ph is borderline (7.0) the iron was not dissipating. I switched to another media that was high in magnesium (I'm pretty sure it was) and that shot my ph up to 9. I was told beforehand it might raise it to 7.5. I was told the calcium wouldn't raise it at all but I can live with 7.7. My fish are happy with it. I much prefer this to having to deal with chemicals like pp in my water. I don't have dissolved carbon dioxide so my ph doesn't rise.

[Niblet]

I can certainly appreciate the effort you went to to come up with what works best for you. Just as a side note for anyone that is reading this in relation to sodium softeners, the amount of sodium added to the water increases with the hardness of your water. The harder your water the more sodium is added. For every 1 mg/L of hardness removed, 0.5 mg/L of sodium is added. So, the amount of sodium added will vary with the original parameters of the water.

[Niblet]

Just thought I would post a brief update. The Manganese green sand filter has been running for a couple of months and REALLY working well. The water coming thru this unit has the same parameters as my well water, less the iron (which is good....my water is moderately soft). It has been a relief to not have to add anything to the water......only need to store it for it to gas off. Also safe for the plants and the honeybee syrup (who knew you had to feed honeybees???????) Also just wanted to clarify that if it were to malfunction during the backwash with PP, it would be visibly evident with a purple color going into the storage tank. The solution is just to run it out until you get clear water. So...so far, so good!

[shoveltrash]

great news! so Fran you should post some pics of your Discus ;)