why beef heart why not chicken

[discusdummy]

Who got the bright idea to take the heart of a cow to feed a fish

[John_Nicholson]

The pioneers that spent years figuring out how to keep the fish alive and get them to spawn so you could enjoy them in your tanks...If you want to do something else then please do. Several people feed turkey heart.

-john

[daveo]

I think it is cost and availabilty.

Daveo

[Chicago Discus]

The pioneers that spent years figuring out how to keep the fish alive and get them to spawn so you could enjoy them in your tanks...If you want to do something else then please do. Several people feed turkey heart.

-john
+1 Johns right

[Skip]

How many chiccken hearts do u need to equal on beef heart. I get bh for $1 pound.. Never seen chicken heart sold... If u have access to enough to make a few pounds.. Go for it

[John_Nicholson]

It is because it is extremely lean. Fish have issues with the fat in mammals.

-john

[Len]

How many chiccken hearts do u need to equal on beef heart. I get bh for $1 pound.. Never seen chicken heart sold... If u have access to enough to make a few pounds.. Go for it



Chicken hearts are more readily available here, and actually come prepackaged in sealed plastic tubs, but are much more expensive. Like you said, imagine how many you would need to get the same amount of meet as a pound or two of beefheart. Also chicken hearts still need to be trimmed and seem to be really fatty.

[discusdummy]

Thx everyone I was just curious

[YSS]

This may have been brought up, but does anyone feed chicken liver to their discus?

[Bilbo]

This may have been brought up, but does anyone feed chicken liver to their discus? I would like to see this answer also since i feed liver to my other fish types and they love it!

[strawberryblonde]

The only nutritional difference in beef liver, compared to beef heart is that Beef Liver contains about 396mg of cholesterol per serving (100 grams) while Beef Heart contains about 124mg of cholesterol for the same size serving (100grams).

I have no idea if discus are prone to health problems from the ingestion of high levels of cholesterol. Beyond that one factor though, the two organ meats are nearly identical in all other nutritional aspects.

When it comes to Chicken Heart vs. Beef Heart, the cholesterol levels are the same, but the fat content of 100grams of Chicken Hearts is more than double the fat content of Beef Heart.

[Skip]

yep..

like TONI said..

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MdcNm9vqMgs/Tr2T4w3xkAI/AAAAAAAAAJU/kVHhPke3jiQ/s400/if_it_aint_broke_dont_fix_it_poster-p228910319794101404tdcp_400.jpg

[YSS]

Things ALWAYS could be better.

[Bilbo]

yep..

like TONI said..

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MdcNm9vqMgs/Tr2T4w3xkAI/AAAAAAAAAJU/kVHhPke3jiQ/s400/if_it_aint_broke_dont_fix_it_poster-p228910319794101404tdcp_400.jpg There are soooo many situations where this is wrong, lol. If discus keepers lived by this code then most peeps would still be using a pan to artificially feed fry in like Wattley used to do in the old days, not to mention all the other advancement in methods the hobby has taken.

[Bilbo]

Things ALWAYS could be better.
+1

[Bilbo]

The only nutritional difference in beef liver, compared to beef heart is that Beef Liver contains about 396mg of cholesterol per serving (100 grams) while Beef Heart contains about 124mg of cholesterol for the same size serving (100grams).

I have no idea if discus are prone to health problems from the ingestion of high levels of cholesterol. Beyond that one factor though, the two organ meats are nearly identical in all other nutritional aspects.

When it comes to Chicken Heart vs. Beef Heart, the cholesterol levels are the same, but the fat content of 100grams of Chicken Hearts is more than double the fat content of Beef Heart. Thank you for the constructive reply. I would also like to know if something like chicken liver harms a discus over a long period of time since it is higher in cholesterol. I would guess that it doesn't since i feed liver to my flowerhorn breeders and haven't had no ill effect on them at all. The reason i think livers may be better for discus than heart meat is that though the muscle fiber of heart meat is relatively smooth in texture, it still is not as soft and smooth as the tissue in liver. The breakdown and absortion of liver tissue by the fish is going to be alot more effective (in my opinion) than that of heart tissue. I also notice a (more proccessed) waste producted with liver than with heart. Liver is indeed a bit more messy but a good established bio filter will mop it up in no time.

[Skip]

There are soooo many situations where this is wrong, lol. If discus keepers lived by this code then most peeps would still be using a pan to artificially feed fry in like Wattley used to do in the old days, not to mention all the other advancement in methods the hobby has taken.

do you think you are the first person to think of this?!?!

17 threads.. have at it
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/search.php?searchid=972876

do you have pics of your discus that eat liver?

[Bilbo]

do you think you are the first person to think of this?!?!

17 threads.. have at it
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/search.php?searchid=972876

do you have pics of your discus that eat liver? My discus dont eat liver, they wont touch it. My discus dont eat beaf heart, they wont touch it. As stated above, my flowerhorns eat liver. Ofcourse they eat anything i throw in the tank, lol. I dont need to.... "have at it". I can... "have at it" in this thread with those people who want to post something constructive like strawberryblonde did. If you have something constructive to add to the subject then feel free to.... "have at it". Otherwise you are wasting a brutha's time.

[Skip]

17 threads on ur topic is very constructive...
do u need a spoon too?

[Bilbo]

17 threads on ur topic is very constructive...
do u need a spoon too? My topic? Wasn't my topic. If you look at my first post in this thread i agreed with a guy that i would like for others to share with us (here in this thread) if they indeed use liver. That was it.. that was all. You following statments were odd and out of place at best. Now shoo off and be gone pest, lol.

[Bilbo]

Not to mention your link doesn't even work. It tells me there are no matches.

[Skip]

Ignore feature is.grand!

[Bilbo]

Ignore feature is.grand! finally

[Element77]

Save the chicken hearts for me. Yum! My grandma puts them in her soup, and I'm the only one to actively seek them out.

[Bilbo]

Save the chicken hearts for me. Yum! My grandma puts them in her soup, and I'm the only one to actively seek them out. Oh my... i have hated liver since i was a young kid! My parents used to make me eat that crap. My fish seem to love them though! It also makes them grow faster than when i have them on beef heart. I will probably start feeding my Ring Leopard grow outs liver today. My Blue Scorpion pair wont touch it.

[YSS]

I love chicken liver. I asked the question about liver earlier as I was preparing chicken liver for dinner and I was thinking this is cheap and may be just as good as beef heart and a lot less cleaning. But with raw chicken parts, there's always a concern for bacterias.

[brianyam]

Just my two cents, I have discussed with some guys who collect fish down in Brazil, and my own feeling on it.... feeding beef heart is not that healthy for fish. Yes it is lean for beef, but still very fatty for fish diets. If you ever get the chance, open a dead discus fed on BH and you can see how fatty their liver has become. Guys like Jack Wattley started the beef heart thing (actually he started with dog food) back in the day, and it just stuck even though Jack himself has moved on and says BH is not that good - he believes high quality dry food is fine. There was an article written by Jack in some fish magazine a few months ago saying that. Jack moved on long time ago.

If you want to feed your discus raw food, a seafood mix(with mostly fish meal), earth worms and mysis shrimp are good. Dry food is good too. I think that resembles what discus would eat in the wild better, not beef or chicken. Sure BH gives you good growth, but just like a human - if I ate steak 3 times a day, outside I would look fine - but inside my heart/organs would be screwed.

[Bilbo]

Just my two cents, I have discussed with some guys who collect fish down in Brazil, and my own feeling on it.... feeding beef heart is not that healthy for fish. Yes it is lean for beef, but still very fatty for fish diets. If you ever get the chance, open a dead discus fed on BH and you can see how fatty their liver has become. Guys like Jack Wattley started the beef heart thing (actually he started with dog food) back in the day, and it just stuck even though Jack himself has moved on and says BH is not that good - he believes high quality dry food is fine. There was an article written by Jack in some fish magazine a few months ago saying that. Jack moved on long time ago.

If you want to feed your discus raw food, a seafood mix(with mostly fish meal), earth worms and mysis shrimp are good. Dry food is good too. I think that resembles what discus would eat in the wild better, not beef or chicken. Sure BH gives you good growth, but just like a human - if I ate steak 3 times a day, outside I would look fine - but inside my heart/organs would be screwed. Yes beafheart has actually been frowned on for many years now. Even in the flowerhorn world beef heart has been frowned on for many years. This being said, there are people that swear by it and will not ever give it up. Me personally, i dont like beef heart that much but i still do support it. I personally do not feel it is like a human eating steak every day since beefheart mixture for fish consist of so much more. Veggies, vitamins and minerals are in most. So to me the proper comparison would be a human eating steak every day along with other things that would make up a complete meal consisting of carbs, fats, protiens, trace ellements, vitamins and minerals. Kind of like the slop they ate on the movie (The Matrix)...."everything a body needs", lol.

That being said... i have a liver mixture that, so far, seems to be excellent for my fish that eat it. Once i test it on my ring leopards for another few months ill give my two cents on it. However, i think even long term, it will be excellent for them as well. Any high cholesterol will be absorbed by the fish with a regular fasting regiment.

[kamel_007]

are the wild discus eat cheicken or beef heart:..... Thats not available in nature..
So why to feed them someting not familiar?
I prefere to go more natural

[John_Nicholson]

For those of you that thinks it is unhealthy what is the oldest discus that ya'll have ever raised on the new and improved discus diet that is completely lacking of BH?

-john

[magewynd]

So tetra bits are natural? You can pick them off a tree?

are the wild discus eat cheicken or beef heart:..... Thats not available in nature..
So why to feed them someting not familiar?
I prefere to go more natural

[kamel_007]

So tetra bits are natural? You can pick them off a tree?

not natural,
but blood worms, black worms, are natural

[Bilbo]

are the wild discus eat cheicken or beef heart:..... Thats not available in nature..
So why to feed them someting not familiar?
I prefere to go more natural Everything we do about keeping discus is unatural and out of place, from the glass box we keep them in to the filtration methods we chose, its all unatural.... but it works. It works because their needs to thrive are supplied. The same can be said about beef heart mixture.

[DerekFF]

That being said... i have a liver mixture that, so far, seems to be excellent for my fish that eat it. Once i test it on my ring leopards for another few months ill give my two cents on it. However, i think even long term, it will be excellent for them as well. Any high cholesterol will be absorbed by the fish with a regular fasting regiment.

Why would you feed a food thats off the charts with cholesterol and then make them fast? That makes no sense

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[dprais1]

Why would you feed a food thats off the charts with cholesterol and then make them fast? That makes no sense

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. liver does not seem to be in that path.

not saying that there aren't better options to beefheart but i don't think you are headed in the right direction.

[Bilbo]

Why would you feed a food thats off the charts with cholesterol and then make them fast? That makes no sense

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2 Because fasting is good for your fish no matter what you feed them and i have been doing it for years and years. I fast myself. Almost all animals go without food at periods of times in their lives and there are several benifits to this. Fasting is a good thing not a bad thing. This is whether you feed beafheart, liver, tetra bits, or whatever it is you chose to feed. As long as it contains some of the things the fish needs for a healthy life and as long as you make up the difference with other nutrition that your fish also needs, then the extra cholesterol is irrelevant because fasting "which should be done regardless" takes care of impurities the fish gets from your food.
Though liver has higher cholesterol than beafheart, beafeart has higher cholesterol than shrimp, and so on and so forth. Who has the highest cholesterol is irrelevant. Who has cholesterol so high that it kills the fish is rellevant.

[John_Nicholson]

Why would you feed a food thats off the charts with cholesterol and then make them fast? That makes no sense

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I assume that you meant to say fat and not fast.........First off BH is used because it is extremely lean. It is not super high in cholesterol......Even if it was it would not matter. Discus don't live long enough for cholesterol to matter. I have heard of them making it to 15. I have had one that made it to 12. Hell I even had a female spawn at the age of 8. All of them had been raised eating a diet that was about 99% BH.

-john

[DiscusOnly]

I assume that you meant to say fat and not fast.........First off BH is used because it is extremely lean. It is not super high in cholesterol......Even if it was it would not matter. Discus don't live long enough for cholesterol to matter. I have heard of them making it to 15. I have had one that made it to 12. Hell I even had a female spawn at the age of 8. All of them had been raised eating a diet that was about 99% BH.

-john

John,

I don't think he is referring to beef heart. He is talking about feeding liver and then fasting that is suggested by Billogaggins. The dicussion when from BH vs Chicken heart to now liver.

If liver works for him, great. Love to see long term effect of usage over 1-2 years.. and not on a few discus.. lol

[John_Nicholson]

Thanks and I agree with you...LOL. If these youngsters want to try something new then by all means do something different and once you know if it works or not then talk about it....Isn't that we all learned in the past?

-john

[RECRUIT]

Well, I feed chicken heart for the last feed of the day, juveniles love em. So ea... I will keep doing so LOL.

[brianyam]

Well, like anything, it is just probability. Just because one smokes, doesn't mean 100% your going to die from lung cancer - but your probably for sure goes up to get cancer. Just because you see a discus that lives long with BH, doesn't mean BH is good for it. and vice versa. So many factors also come to play. water quality, genetics.

I am not sure why there is so much focus to give Discus so much protein? Why BH? Some even add raw eggs, shrimp, livers..etc.etc. I mean, these fish are eating more protein than humans/animals do. I have a dog, I wouldn't feed eat BH/egg/liver 3 time a day. Maybe as a treat, but not daily. And for sure not farm animals ( too high in fat).

I fish allot, and the discus is really the sunfish of North America. Sun fish eat insects, small worms, small fish..etc..etc. These food sources don't have animal fat.

Like I said, the dude that started beef heart, Jack wattley, even said he has moved on. He said the reason he had to play with things as those days there was no good dry food and not a great understanding of discus those days.

Not only that, I find beef heart is like playing with fire with water quality. You have to do daily water changes when you use beef heart and not the greatest for display tanks with substrate, plants, wood..etc. It is good for a simple bare bottom static tank, where you clean every un eaten piece. You miss a few, or feed too much, it really screws the water. When you feed dry food, doing WC twice a week is fine.

Anyways, just my two cents, whatever works for anyone.

[brianyam]

BTW - Its all relative. Beef heart is lean for beef meat, but is not lean for fish diets. When people say beef heart is lean, they mean in the context for human consumption compared to rib eye, flank..etc. Please anyone who says beef heart is lean for fish is to find an actual certified animal/fish expert (perhaps working at an aquarium/zoo) that says beef heart is lean for fish?

Just because they eat it, doesn't mean it is good for them. My kid would love to eat cake at every meal, so what?

[John_Nicholson]

Fellow it was not just one. I have owned lots of discus though the years. The only year that that I really counted I sold 6000 discus. See my experience is based on literally thousands of discus. Not just a handful....If you want to do something different then by all means do so....See how well it works and then comeback and tell everyone how great your new method is. You can absolutely raise discus without BH. Are they healthier? happier? spawn more? live longer?.....nope they will not be superior in any manner.

-john

[Skip]

Fellow it was not just one. I have owned lots of discus though the years. The only year that that I really counted I sold 6000 discus. See my experience is based on literally thousands of discus. Not just a handful....If you want to do something different then by all means do so....See how well it works and then comeback and tell everyone how great your new method is. You can absolutely raise discus without BH. Are they healthier? happier? spawn more? live longer?.....nope they will not be superior in any manner.

-john

LOL>.

Book smart vs street smart..

[DerekFF]

LOL>.

Book smart vs street smart..

John just threw a discus punch to the throat!!

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[DerekFF]

BEEF The amounts of cholesterol in mgs for various cuts of beef are: rib roast, 40-72; eye of round, 52-62; sirloin, 64-77; chuck roast, 66-87; ground beef, 74; bottom round, 75-81; canned corned beef, 80. A veal cutlet has 86 mgs of cholesterol per serving. Beef heart has 164-180 mgs of cholesterol per serving, while beef liver has 269-410 mgs of cholesterol per serving. Beef brain, braised, has 2,635 mgs of cholesterol per serving.

CHICKEN While technically poultry, chicken meat is eaten by most Americans on a regular basis. Chicken breast has 73 mgs of cholesterol per serving if roasted, but that amount increases to 87 mgs of cholesterol per serving if it is dredged in flour and fried, and to 119 per serving if it is battered then fried. A chicken drumstick has 41 mgs. of cholesterol per serving if roasted, with that amount increasing to 44 mgs of cholesterol per serving if it is dredged in flour and fried, and 62 per serving if it is battered then fried. Chicken liver has 126 mgs of cholesterol per serving, while canned boneless chicken has 88 mgs of cholesterol per serving.

Cholesterol levels all quoted from livestrong.com

#5: Shrimp (Prawns, Camarones) 100 grams of shrimp will contain 195mg (65% DV) of cholesterol. A single large shrimp contains 11mg (4% DV), and an ounce of shrimp will provide around 55mg (18% DV).

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[TonyAPBTx]

Ughh the stubborness on this board is starting to get very frustrating.

Warlock you are clearly getting out of control with your posts. Why are you so angry when you respond to people?

If I recall, you have failed more times than anyone else I've seen posts from. Why are you suddenly so condescening when responding and posting on here?

It has actually started deterring me from the board as you seem to post on every topic.

John, how do you know its not going to work? Have you tried it? IF not, then why are you responding in such a manner? You don't know if it will work or not, you may have an idea. But you don't know.

The fact that one of the "fore-fathers" of discus has clearly moved on past Beefheart is a good reason to discuss it alone. But since you feed it in 99% of your fishs' diet, no one should discuss because you know it wont work?

The facts seem to suggest that it not only is very feasible to feed without beef heart but also better. Especially with freeze dried black worms and other forms of food available with high protein.

The board, correct me if I am wrong, is supposed to be one of discussion and an open forum. The condescening arrogant posts are getting to the point I've stopped coming to this board as frequently.

This is also in the discus for beginners, I would expect less of an attitude with the posts here.

[Skip]

Warlock you are clearly getting out of control with your posts. Why are you so angry when you respond to people?

If I recall, you have failed more times than anyone else I've seen posts from. Why are you suddenly so condescening when responding and posting on here?

It has actually started deterring me from the board as you seem to post on every topic..

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/member.php?23316-warlock4169

*ADD TO IGNORE LIST

feel free to use it :)

[TonyAPBTx]

The comment about throwing a discus punch to the throat pretty much shows you that you are not coming accross very well at all. Sad that was even posted, but it shows the change in mentality since I first started coming here. Good luck beginners just be careful the question you ask!

[Skip]

The comment about throwing a discus punch to the throat pretty much shows you that you are not coming accross very well at all. Sad that was even posted, but it shows the change in mentality since I first started coming here. Good luck beginners just be careful the question you ask!

that comment was not mine.. :)

i am still trying to figure out how a discus punch works

[John_Nicholson]

Tony I never said it would not work....I said more then once that if he wanted to then to please try it.....They are his fish and he can do anything he wants to them. If someone wants to find a "better" way then do it, prove it. I just get tired of people running down the old way, you know the ones, the ones that work and have been "PROVEN" to work over the long haul. All that I ask for is for someone to invest the time and money first and then to get on line and run off at the mouth after that. In the scientific world everyone expects you to publish proof, if you can't do that you become a high school science teacher...LOL. ( No I am not ragging all high school science teachers, just making a point...).

-john

[Skip]

if you can't do that you become a high school science teacher...LOL. ( No I am not ragging all high school science teachers, just making a point...).

-john

i am certified high school biology teacher.. :)

[DerekFF]

Ughh the stubborness on this board is starting to get very frustrating.

The board, correct me if I am wrong, is supposed to be one of discussion and an open forum. The condescening arrogant posts are getting to the point I've stopped coming to this board as frequently.

This is also in the discus for beginners, I would expect less of an attitude with the posts here.

I have stopped coming here as often because some of the newer people or just plain naive older people who think they know what they are doing are all throwing around word definitions, concepts and things they think are true across the forums. This fallacy on this forum is taking over, and people like john are running out of time and patients to correct these fallacies. Where did feeding one of the highest cholesterol foods known to man and then fasting your fish become good practice? He may use it with success in his basment, but to claim fasting is good for all animals? He must be a vet i guess. Does Wattley do that? Apparently not, if hes who were going to use as an example of fore-father.

That said this is a forum for open discussion and I would hate for people to be discouraged from doing so. But when people start using words and things in untrue manners it just becomes a forum of junk which people like john and warlock are trying to keep from happening. If it happens it happens though, we can't stop it. I hear where you are coming from and others feel the same way. To many "i thinks" being spread with no hardcore proof, scientific nature behind them or anything solid to back it.
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[John_Nicholson]

i am certified high school biology teacher.. :)


LOL......Skip you are killing me.....

-john

[Skip]

LOL......Skip you are killing me.....

-john

its true.. its one of my many skills.. :)

[brianyam]

Hahaha. Funny bunch discus people.

Man, I don't get it why anyone would think BH is the ONLY thing for discus. Not saying you can't do it, and not saying it doesn't work either sometimes, but to say nothing else works (fish meal, insects, earth worms, dry foods) is just plain close minded. Sorry. There is no such thing (with anything) as only one way. This is not about book smart or street smart, it is about just thinking a little.

Also, your a seller. 6000 discus right? Your trying to get them out the door and get to a certain size asap. So I get why you would you use beef heart. I agree, if your growing them out and trying to get them to put on size and colour quick so they are on the market and look good to the buyer - I agree use beef heart. Use allot of it. Since that will make them look good for the buyer. I would do it too if I were a seller.

I mean, give me a break, not like I am saying feed the fish chocolate and peppermint gum. Geez, fish meal and insects, worms? dry food... Won't get them to grow good and spawn?

[John_Nicholson]

Apparently there is a reading comprehension issue in Canada....I have said all along that BH is not the only way. I do think it is the best way though. If you want to do something different then by all means do so. See how well it works and post your results. What is so hard to understand about that? Do this, grow out your fish anyway you want and then bring them to the next NADA show and see how they compare to the BH fish? You seem to like challenges, so if you want to show us how brilliant you are put your money where your mouth is.....

-john

[DerekFF]

Hahaha. Funny bunch discus people.

Man, I don't get it why anyone would think BH is the ONLY thing for discus. ?
No one said that


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[Skip]

Maybe side bets on the simply discus challenge.. Could be a great place to see results and watch different methods

[brianyam]

No, we read pretty well up here in Canada. Apparantly more open minded too.

This is not about who is younger, new, old. I do everything from discus, dogs, plecos, aros, catfish. Always good to keep an open mind, and always feed a variety of food and try things out.

[YSS]

Maybe side bets on the simply discus challenge.. Could be a great place to see results and watch different methods

There was one. Just feeding flakes.

[Skip]

There was one. Just feeding flakes.

well,i am hoping for a little secret weapon.. in is in the works.. will have to wait some to see how it unfolds :)

[DerekFF]

well,i am hoping for a little secret weapon.. in is in the works.. will have to wait some to see how it unfolds :)

Whole rat? Maybe goat udder?

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[Skip]

Whole rat? Maybe goat udder?



SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! DANG.. don't blow it for me!

[John_Nicholson]

How am I not open minded.....I have begged you to do everything that you want to do and then let us know the results......I just get tired of people that are all talk. If you want to do it then please do, otherwise quit talking about it.



-john

[Skip]

i feel Panda Heart is best.. but its kind of tricky.. ZOO don't like it

[Len]

Just a note on cholesterol, it isn't the amount of cholesterol in the food you eat that is the problem, as this only accounts for about 20% of your total blood cholesterol levels. The other 80% is produced by your liver from the saturated fat you eat in your diet. Also the levels of cholesterol measured in food aren't all bad, they are usually expressed as a total of both HDL and LDL (good and bad). All that being said, does anyone even know if or how cholesterol affects the health fish?


also just to clarify, I do include beefheart in my fish's diet. I figure if people have used it successfully for so many years without issue, it mustn't be bad. I just don't use it as my sole source of food. I include fish, red worms, white worms, brine shrimp, mysis, and sometimes even some flake and pellet.

[Elliots]

I personally will feed beef heart as part of Discus diet. I will try to add other foods to get a varied diet. I have a question, is there no one on this site who is a Veternarian with a specific knowledge of fish or does some know a person like that who might have an opinion on fish diets? That is not to say a Vet. would be the most knowledgeable on the subject. The feeding of beef heart is very wide spread on this site so it must be good for Discus, it certainly can not be bad or someone would say so.

[Bilbo]

I have stopped coming here as often because some of the newer people or just plain naive older people who think they know what they are doing are all throwing around word definitions, concepts and things they think are true across the forums. This fallacy on this forum is taking over, and people like john are running out of time and patients to correct these fallacies. Where did feeding one of the highest cholesterol foods known to man and then fasting your fish become good practice? He may use it with success in his basment, but to claim fasting is good for all animals? He must be a vet i guess. Does Wattley do that? Apparently not, if hes who were going to use as an example of fore-father.

That said this is a forum for open discussion and I would hate for people to be discouraged from doing so. But when people start using words and things in untrue manners it just becomes a forum of junk which people like john and warlock are trying to keep from happening. If it happens it happens though, we can't stop it. I hear where you are coming from and others feel the same way. To many "i thinks" being spread with no hardcore proof, scientific nature behind them or anything solid to back it.
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2 Fasting should be a part of everyone's fish keeping regiment in my opinion. I have done it for many years. Fish in the wild don't even have food in their stomachs year round (most other animals for that matter). Fasting should be done on your fish no matter what food you are feeding them. This being said, if a person fasts their fish, a food that has as high of cholesterol as beefheart is not going to harm them. A food containing as high of cholesterol as pellet food is not going to harm them. A food containing as high as cholesterol as liver is not going to harm them. Fasting is also important for humans to do as well (though most don't do it). I am a fitness nut and i know to much through study as well as experience to see it otherwise. Its hard for me to believe that there are some people that will say fasting is not helpful to their fish. Heck, is eating eggs and and other high protein and cholesterol foods good for the average person as part of their regular regiment if they dont fast? Heck no. But guess what... i eat bookoos of eggs and bookoos of red meat and it works excellent for me. Why? Because i clean my system every so often with a fast. I get the benifit of the protien and certain vitamins but am uneffected by the high cholesterol.

What im trying to say is that though certain foods may have other bad components in them that may or may not harm the fish, it often times does not matter if a person would only fast their fish. Liver is an excellent choice to me since my fish digest it easier than beef heart. This is why i use it. I could care less what the cholesterol is in it because it doesn't effect my fish.
I also wanted to say that my mentor as well as neighbor is the largest angel fish breeder in the USA. He produces more angels that anyone does in this country. He also, up until recently (because he is retiring) has bred guppies, oscars, platies, plecos, and cories in the millions for years. So for the guy in here talking about selling 6 thousand discus... well Ozark Angels has you beat by about a few hundred million. He fasts his breeders as well. And for the people that are against beefeart... he uses that as well and has for years. He also uses turkey hearts and livers for years. Now since a few people in here wanted to know if "other things" work...... they do. You asked us to share... i have.

That being said, can we all please be a little more civil to each other?

[Bilbo]

Just a note on cholesterol, it isn't the amount of cholesterol in the food you eat that is the problem, as this only accounts for about 20% of your total blood cholesterol levels. The other 80% is produced by your liver from the saturated fat you eat in your diet. Also the levels of cholesterol measured in food aren't all bad, they are usually expressed as a total of both HDL and LDL (good and bad). All that being said, does anyone even know if or how cholesterol affects the health fish?


also just to clarify, I do include beefheart in my fish's diet. I figure if people have used it successfully for so many years without issue, it mustn't be bad. I just don't use it as my sole source of food. I include fish, red worms, white worms, brine shrimp, mysis, and sometimes even some flake and pellet. Now we are getting somewhere! Cholesterolsmesherol... unless you are feeding your fish Crisco, its not going to matter (within reason... no twinkies). I have heard all this cholesterol talk with humans as well. Been hearing it for years. "EGGS ARE BAAAD". Nope, not true. "MILK IS GOOD FOR YOU". Nope, definatley not true. Been hearing all these kinds of things for years. In a food item that has other benificial attriubutes to the human body, cholesterol is not going to matter so long as you fast. You guys know why a chick inside an egg eats that cholesterol ridden egg yolk? Cause he's hungry and thats what he's got. How does he break it down? Their is an enzyme secreted for the job. A similar enzyme is secreted from us humans when we fast that breaks down cholesterol as well as other things in our body to use for energy, thus the clean out. A very similar effect happens to fish when they are fasted.

[brianyam]

Look, just my opinion how all this BH and WC started. So please guys, don't freak out. Not trying to attack your skills. Just a discussion maybe better over beers.

My dad use to do Discus back back in the day. He ordered Jack Wattley fry when Jack was starting out. I was young, but I remember, no one really knew what the hell they were doing those days. Discus were this new exotic fish that people thought was the greatest coolest thing since all they did before was goldfish. My dad fed BH since that is what Jack said in his book, and he just did it. I remember he lost so much fish since he couldn't understand why the water was so bad. Then he started doing allot of water changes (to counter the BH poo), then this myth of discus being tough mofos to care started. Of course it was tough, who wants to do WC every day, especially with the equipment in those days having to use your mouth to suck.

I took a break from fish as I went off to school and work, but when I settled back down, i got back into fish. Started with exotic plecos. No big deal, changed water 1-2 a week, feed dry food, veggies. Royals poo allot, but that was ok. Water was 100% good Then I got back to the old childhood passion, discus. So I bought some domestics and put them with the plecos, and did what I remember my dad did. Feed BH. Water went to Sh*T. Lost some plecos to disease and bloating. I started to compensate by doing WC everyday. That worked, but then I thought - why the hell am I doing WC everyday?, sometimes twice a day (As I was getting paranoid after losing the plecos), wife was on my case.

Started doing some research. Well, obviously, feeding red meat to fish isn't good. The lipids build up in their liver. Also, it makes their poo much more toxic. Don't believe me. Eat steak today for all your meals, and take a look at your poo. Feed your dog raw meat, look at his poo. It gets nasty. Remember, this is farm red meat as well, not wild meat. It is very different. But what really got me to stop feeding BH was when the wife ( who knows nothing about fish), asked me " why are you putting raw red meat in water?".

Then it hit me. Why was I doing that? I am just doing since my dad did it. And he did it because Jack Wattley did it. And I notice that people on SD who back BH just say the same thing. " I did it for 30 years newbie, so it works".

So I stopped. Started feeding dry food, some mysis shrimps and a fish meal frozen mix. Now, everything is good. Everything is stable. Change water 1-2 a week. Fish are looking great. Wife happy, and don't have the hose in my hand change water every day. I even read in Tropical Fish Magazine that Jack Wattley does not do BH anymore, says it is bad for water and dry food is fine. He says he was just playing around, even tried dog food. I believe it is the last issue or so, go to the "Ask Jack" section. Read it.

Thats how i think this myth discus are tough fish to care for started. This BH thing feeding all the time. It was a domino effect. Feed BH, have to change water. Look, you can pick the most toughest *** fish like Tilapia - feed it BH all the time and you know what will happen? You got to change water every day even though tilapia are so strong. And then even tilapia will get the rep as being a weak fish and hard to take care of.

Since I got into other fish, like plecos, aros and monster fish..etc...the people doing those fish are much more open minded. They don't feed beef heart even to their monster fish. They fast one day, try new things. And I think the reason allot of these fish came later, after Discus, so these people never read or were exposed to guys like Jack Wattley - so they never fed BH.

Look, use your contrarian sense, if discus are so sensitive to water quality - why feed it something that is probably the worse thing for water quality? Raw red meat? I can't think anything that is worse. There are perfectly other suitable sourses of protein to give your fish.

If your a breeder, and it is your job to be with fish all day, sure grow those discus fast with BH, do WC 1-2 a day. But if your a hobbyist, doing WC everyday for all those tanks just so you can feed BH doesn't make much sense. I love fish, but there are other things to do as well.

Anyways, I am done with this topic. That is my long story. At the end of the day, these fish are here for our enjoyment. So you can do what you want to them in the end. I am just trying to give another perspective.

[OCD]

oh my...
enjoying :)

[DerekFF]

So eating a high cholesterol diet and then fasting periodically after prevents arteriosclerosis?

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[Bilbo]

So eating a high cholesterol diet and then fasting periodically after prevents arteriosclerosis?

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2 Yes. But you have to make sure you have other nutrients in your diet to make sure your body can function the way it should. Same with liver in a fish's diet. Research fasting. You may be amazed at what you find.

[Bilbo]

Btw way the Pharmaceutical companies do not want you to fast. The Medical world does not want you to fast. It is to big of a preventative as well as a cure for many things. There is no money in the cure. There is money in the treatment. Thats why Chris Rock said it best one time... "They aint NEEEEEVER curing aids". Its sad but true. They ain't killing the goose that lays golden eggs. Now, obviously there are sometimes exceptions but you get the point.
Did you know that when you fast your body produces extra growth hormone? Your body also is able to clean out the liver. Thats why people find DDT and other chemicals in their stool after a long fast. Your body purges itself. ALOT of other things that fasting does as well. Two reasons why people have a sucky old age before death in our society... 1 is that people dont give their body's assembly line the components (building blocks) to properly regenerate itself and the other is people don't fast to get rid of the toxins we breath and consume and absorb through our skin. We are freakin walking meth labs. Your body is forced to take what comes through the ol assembly line. And we all know what most people feed our bodies.

[dghby]

interesting thread, i am a newbie myself. I would not have Discus if i did not come across this forum and "the old ways of doing things" If it works??
But i am pretty sure John has said plenty of times, want to try something new? give it a try and come back and share how it does. I think John has got a little "testy"
because the original post was down playing and questioning why BH is even used. I don't blame him, he's been pretty successful ( OK, very successful).
i do not feed 99% BH, but certainly is a large part of my Discus diet, along with FDBW's, Bloodworms, some flakes , mysis shrimp, etc. but then again, i am not entering any of mine into competition.
But, it seems to be working.

[roclement]

i am certified high school biology teacher.. :)

In this whole thread, this is the most disturbing post! Poor children!

Rodrigo

[roclement]

For whatever it's worth, my oppinion in a couple of the many topics on this thread:

Fasting - A great thing for humans and any animals alike, when done properly (emphasis on this), fasting is a sure fire way to help you, not a doctor but a practitioner myself and for my fish.

Beefheart - Great from grwoing fish fast! It simply works, period. The reason Watley moved away from it is mainly due to 2 reasons, one he is no longer a comercial breeder, two he is an endorsed speaker by multiple fish product companies, what do you think he is going to preach? Go to the butchers or go to the pet store? Not attacking Watley here, he is a great man and he has all my respect, just my observation.

Other foods - I am all for variety and innovation, I personally don't feed my fish beefgeart simply because I only keep a limited number of wilds that happen to love blackworms and flake so it's convenient for me. If I was breeding and growing out fry, I would use a lot of beefheart.

Warlock - every forum needs one! :)

JMO

Rodrigo

[dghby]

Warlock - every forum needs one! :)

Rodrigo haha, exactly

[DerekFF]

Yes. But you have to make sure you have other nutrients in your diet to make sure your body can function the way it should. Same with liver in a fish's diet. Research fasting. You may be amazed at what you find.

I found 0 support that fasting helps prevent or reverse atherosclerosis and plenty of support that high cholesterol diets simply supply fuel for it.

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[Bilbo]

I found 0 support that fasting helps prevent or reverse atherosclerosis and plenty of support that high cholesterol diets simply supply fuel for it.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2 There is alot of support for it. You just need to look in the right places. Look, if you dont want to fast you or your fish then you dont have to. Im not going to twist your arm. Furthermore if you ever find out one of your fish is suffering from atherosclerosis then just put him on a veggie diet.

[Ehup]

I wonder.....do fish fast in the wild ?????

[Ehup]

(fish thinking) I'm not gona eat that worm I'm fasting today. Don't think so.

[Bilbo]

Mother nature (makes) fish fast in the wild all the time. There have been discus taken from the wild with no trace of food in their stomachs.

[Ehup]

Possibly a sick fish not eating ?

[Ehup]

Been fishing for 30 years and never have come across a fish with a empty stomach.

[Ehup]

Not saying your wrong but if there's food a fish will eat. Some things might not be their first choice but the will usually find something in the wild.

[Bilbo]

Been fishing for 30 years and never have come across a fish with a empty stomach. I have been fishing for 30 years as well... and i have came across LOTS of fish with empty stomachs.

[Ehup]

Once again possibly sick fish ?

[Bilbo]

Not saying your wrong but if there's food a fish will eat. Some things might not be their first choice but the will usually find something in the wild. A fish doesn't choose to fast no more than a lion cub choses to be killed by an invading male lion. But mother nature will have her way nonetheless.

[Bilbo]

Once again possibly sick fish ? Try some deep water winter fishing for big sluggish cat fish. You will catch a few that have empty tummies. Are you guys for real?

[Ehup]

And when you are fasting your fish they don't pick at any alge in the tank ?

[Ehup]

I live right next to the Cape Fear river in North Carolina, some of the best cat fishing in the US and you wouldn't believe some of the stuff we pull out of their stomachs.

[Bilbo]

And when you are fasting your fish they don't pick at any alge in the tank ? If i want to fast my fish there will be none in the tank bruh.

[Bilbo]

I live right next to the Cape Fear river in North Carolina, some of the best cat fishing in the US and you wouldn't believe some of the stuff we pull out of their stomachs. And my dad can pee farther than your dad.. what is your point? Mine is that mother nature will make sure that hundreds of different species of mammal and fish alike, will go hungry several times throughout their life. For you to say that they wont shows how little you know about the animal kingdom and how things work.

[Ehup]

Seems like your saying all these people on this forum who, since your here I would think to learn from, don't know squat about discus. And by the way where did you obtain your masters in marine biology from ?

[Bilbo]

Seems like your saying all these people on this forum who, since your here I would think to learn from, don't know squat about discus. And by the way where did you obtain your masters in marine biology from ? Actually i am sure there are people on this same forum that you are reffering too that would agree fasting is good for your discus. Or are you implying that just because i may be bringing an updated awareness to the table that i am wrong no matter what? And i (thought) we were all here to learn from each other. Does you being so adament about your "no, fasting is not good" or whatever your message is, indicate that you already know it all more so than the rest of us? See how i can turn that around?

[Ehup]

Nope just saying as many people who have disagreed with it seems like alot more then have agreed with it. And most of these people have been doing this for a long time. How long have you been breeding/raising discus.

[Ehup]

No I don't know more but I do know there is no one to clean the alge from the river,lake or whatever body of water and most fish do eat some sort of veggie.

[Bilbo]

Nope just saying as many people who have disagreed with it seems like alot more then have agreed with it. And most of these people have been doing this for a long time. How long have you been breeding/raising discus. Nine years for discus give or take though i bred my first pair of discus successfully 12 years ago. More for rams and angels as well as other types of tropicals. I also am friends with the largest angelfish breeder in the country who also says fasting if good for your fish. He also practices this. So do i make the team coach? There are people that have been feeding beefheart to discus for 20 years who don't agree with another discus breeder that has been doing it for 20 years that says beefheart is bad. Whats your point?

[Bilbo]

No I don't know more but I do know there is no one to clean the alge from the river,lake or whatever body of water and most fish do eat some sort of veggie. So you are implying that people should feed only veggie to their discus at times?

[Ehup]

No but if your asking for the #1 reason for discus not eating and not knowing things like the worms in the discus, instead of arguing with these people about fasting you might want to take their advice.

[Ehup]

No mixed diet as most the people on here recommend. And as happens in nature.

[DerekFF]

There is alot of support for it. You just need to look in the right places. Look, if you dont want to fast you or your fish then you dont have to. Im not going to twist your arm. Furthermore if you ever find out one of your fish is suffering from atherosclerosis then just put him on a veggie diet.

Feel free to post a credible source

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[Bilbo]

No but if your asking for the #1 reason for discus not eating and not knowing things like the worms in the discus, instead of arguing with these people about fasting you might want to take their advice. Plain and simple. Healthy discus have been found in the wild with nothing in their tummies.. this is fact. Nuff said. If you dont want to fast your fish then don't, im not twisting your arm. I will continue to do so and i reccomend it to everyone here.

[Ehup]

Why recommend something that is not proven and may cost someone new to discus their fish ????

[Bilbo]

Feel free to post a credible source

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2 To convert you? To try and prove a point to you? Its all over the web. If you are truly interested you will find it. If not then i expect you to know that i will not do your homework for you. If you were truly interested and wanted to know more about it, maybe. But you are obviously wanting to be contradictive so i won't.

[Bilbo]

Why recommend something that is not proven and may cost someone new to discus their fish ???? Why in the heck do any of us on this site reccomend things that aren't so called proven! Lol, for realz dude? If something works for someone then they will recommend it.

[Ehup]

A picture is worth a thousand words. Where's your fish ?

[DerekFF]

To convert you? To try and prove a point to you? Its all over the web. If you are truly interested you will find it. If not then i expect you to know that i will not do your homework for you. If you were truly interested and wanted to know more about it, maybe. But you are obviously wanting to be contradictive so i won't.

Your entire claim lies upon feeding liver and fasting is healthy. So give the forum some proof that eating that much liver is healthy for anyone and that fasting prevents the negative side effects of eating such a high cholesterol food. I did do research and found nothing. If you cant fork up support or evidence for your claim then your just talkin to talk

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[Ehup]

This site from my understanding was in part created to help people new to discus get away from the myths and bad info on raising discus. Just saying. Are all these people wrong ? Just saying,Might help to listen more and advise less.

[Ehup]

Derek, do you starve your fish ?

[DerekFF]

No, do you?(silly question, hope theres a point to it)

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[Ehup]

No just asking if bilbo is right.

[Ehup]

I feed 3 times daily as recommended by others on the forum.

[Bilbo]

A picture is worth a thousand words. Where's your fish ? in my tanks in my house, lol. Where are yours? Point? Lets use some logic here.

[DerekFF]

Hes just claiming that you can eat one of the highest fat/cholesterol containing foods known to man kind and then fast afterwards and that its healty. Theres been no proof, evidence or any support for it. He knows the largest angelfish breeder in the US and I know Santa Clause (sorry skip santa isnt real)

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[Bilbo]

Your entire claim lies upon feeding liver and fasting is healthy. So give the forum some proof that eating that much liver is healthy for anyone and that fasting prevents the negative side effects of eating such a high cholesterol food. I did do research and found nothing. If you cant fork up support or evidence for your claim then your just talkin to talk

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2 Your wanting proof that my method works? Are you going to demand the same proof from all the people here that say beefheart is healthy as well? Are you going to demand proof from the people here that say FDBW are healthy? Are you going to demand proof from the people that say feeding flake is healthy? Give me a break man. They are almost all going to tell you this right here: " I use it and it works and if you dont want to use it then dont" This is what im telling you as well. It's about as simple as i can make it for ya bud.

[Bilbo]

This site from my understanding was in part created to help people new to discus get away from the myths and bad info on raising discus. Just saying. Are all these people wrong ? Just saying,Might help to listen more and advise less. Then you may need to pay attention to all these experience people who are disagreeing on whether or not to feed beefheart. Are you even reading these threads?

[Bilbo]

Hes just claiming that you can eat one of the highest fat/cholesterol containing foods known to man kind and then fast afterwards and that its healty. Theres been no proof, evidence or any support for it. He knows the largest angelfish breeder in the US and I know Santa Clause (sorry skip santa isnt real)

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2 Dont misconstrue what i said. I said i believe in fasting a fish no matter what you feed it. I just happen to feed mine liver amoung many other things and yes they are healthy fish. Know the largest Angelfish breeder? He's my mentor. Ozark Angels is the name. Right here where i live. Tell Santa i said hi!

[DerekFF]

Your wanting proof that my method works? Are you going to demand the same proof from all the people here that say beefheart is healthy as well? Are you going to demand proof from the people here that say FDBW are healthy? Are you going to demand proof from the people that say feeding flake is healthy? Give me a break man. They are almost all going to tell you this right here: " I use it and it works and if you dont want to use it then dont" This is what im telling you as well. It's about as simple as i can make it for ya bud.

No i want you to prove that fasting prevents negative side effects of eating liver as you so claim. Theres no doubt that it will grow fish. You dont get a break when you straight out say fasting makes feeding anything ok.

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[Ehup]

My point is your asking why your fish won't eat, you don't seem to know squat about internal parasites in discus.
POINT = you don't seem to know squat about discus
POINT = if you don't know squat about something then why give possible bad advise.

[DerekFF]

My point is your asking why your fish won't eat, you don't seem to know squat about internal parasites in discus.
POINT = you don't seem to know squat about discus
POINT = if you don't know squat about something then why give possible bad advise.

Who are you talking to?

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[DerekFF]

Dont misconstrue what i said. I said i believe in fasting a fish no matter what you feed it. I just happen to feed mine liver amoung many other things and yes they are healthy fish. Know the largest Angelfish breeder? He's my mentor. Ozark Angels is the name. Right here where i live. Tell Santa i said hi!

Santa says youve been naughty and that coal is in your future ;)


Any high cholesterol will be absorbed by the fish with a regular fasting regiment.

That is a direct quote from you. To an extent yes cholesterol is absorbed by the body. That is however only HDL and all the excess LDL is unhealthy. Im am asking how does fasting undo or prevent the effects of all the LDL.


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[Ehup]

To Bilbo I can't understand why he would want to give unproven advice to people.

[DerekFF]

To Bilbo I can't understand why he would want to give unproven advice to people.

Thats why im asking for proof to his claim

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[Ehup]

I'm new to the forum and come on here to learn. His comments caught my attention.

[Bilbo]

No i want you to prove that fasting prevents negative side effects of eating liver as you so claim. Theres no doubt that it will grow fish. You dont get a break when you straight out say fasting makes feeding anything ok.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2A break? I never asked for a break from you. You surely realize that i could care less if you fast your fish or not. I could care less if you feed your fish liver or not. I will continue to fast as well as feed liver and i will reccomend others to do the same. Why? Because i do it and it works. If you dont like that answer then tuff *****.

[DerekFF]

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[Ehup]

But why make recommendations when your having problems with your fish and don't know the cause. Could it be that your doing different from what everyone else is doing? So why recommend it ?

[Bilbo]

My point is your asking why your fish won't eat, you don't seem to know squat about internal parasites in discus.
POINT = you don't seem to know squat about discus
POINT = if you don't know squat about something then why give possible bad advise. POINT= you just said you come on the forum to learn but you are trying to school me right now. Are you smoking something tonight? Your logic is quite comical, lol.
Also if you read my other thread at all i said my male eats once in great while. He does not have internal parasites causing him to be finicky. In fact the reason he wasn't eating was because he hates black worms. He eats mosquito larvae as well as other things like he cant get enough. He will not touch black worms.
I asked certain questions in other threads the way i did because i was new to this site and i wanted to open up here in the most humble way possible.
You are making this debate to easy my friend.

[DerekFF]

Your wanting proof that my method works? Are you going to demand the same proof from all the people here that say beefheart is healthy as well? Are you going to demand proof from the people here that say FDBW are healthy? Are you going to demand proof from the people that say feeding flake is healthy? Give me a break man. They are almost all going to tell you this right here: " I use it and it works and if you dont want to use it then dont" This is what im telling you as well. It's about as simple as i can make it for ya bud.

Clearly asked for a break. Im done wasting my time with you. For anyone else who reads this please know that bilbobaggins recommends and advises to do things that he has no proof or backing of and can carry on all day about what he "thinks" again without any scientific or hard evidence.

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[Ehup]

Not trying to school you just want to know why you would give unproven advise ?

[Bilbo]

I also dont see anything about ozark angels being the largest breeder in the US from their 1 page webpage. Angels plus and angelfish usa? They dont even compare to the volume of ozark angels?

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2Haha you dont see anything about him except his one page because he doesn't sell to individuals. Heck, he doesn't even sell to pet stores. He sales to Seacrest and other giants who then turn and sell to super chains and pet stores. And yes he does more volume than Angels plus and Angelfish USA combined. Actually probably about 100 times over. Dave has heard of him as i asked him about it over the phone the other day when we spoke. Dave at Angelfish USA is big, dont get me wrong, but he focusses more on super quality as well as harder to get angelfish. Dave also sells to individuals. Ozark Angels focusses on moderate quality and high volume. Millions a year.
What did Santa say?

[Bilbo]

Not trying to school you just want to know why you would give unproven advise ? I give my advice because it works for me. Same reason others give advice here on the forum. If you dont like it then dont do it sir? Ok?

[Bilbo]

But why make recommendations when your having problems with your fish and don't know the cause. Could it be that your doing different from what everyone else is doing? So why recommend it ? What issues am i having with my fish other than my male didn't like to eat black worms which i fixed by changing foods?

[Ehup]

And your the one making things easy I'm asking questions not advising people how to feed their fish or giving my methods for feeding fish.

[Bilbo]

Clearly asked for a break. Im done wasting my time with you. For anyone else who reads this please know that bilbobaggins recommends and advises to do things that he has no proof or backing of and can carry on all day about what he "thinks" again without any scientific or hard evidence.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2 You suck at debates bruh... dont let the door hit you on the way out.

[Bilbo]

And your the one making things easy I'm asking questions not advising people how to feed their fish or giving my methods for feeding fish. If you have a method that works for you then feel free to share it. Thats what we do here playa, lol.

[Ehup]

Just from the questions your asking you don't seem to know enough to be giving advise that might possibly cost someone else their fish.

[Bilbo]

Just from the questions your asking you don't seem to know enough to be giving advise that might possibly cost someone else their fish. You are certainly entitled to your opininon.... anything else?

[DerekFF]

You suck at debates bruh... dont let the door hit you on the way out.

You suck at life. Dont let your boyfriend kiss you goodnight without brushing his teeth

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[Ehup]

Tell Gary hi.

[Bilbo]

You suck at life. Dont let your boyfriend kiss you goodnight without brushing his teeth

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2 You saying i suck at life without even knowing my life situation gives thought that you have real life issues and you are insecure. I on the otherhand am very secure and successful in my relationship with my God, my children, my wife and my other friends in family. I have a wonderful home and im doing ok financially. I share this wonderful hobby with lots of other good people here on this site. I'd say my life is pretty good. Your cheap shot attemp is screaming insecurity and that i got under your skin. Quite hilarious since i was not even the one that initiated the hostility. You have amused me at best.

[Bilbo]

Tell Gary hi. Will do! I'll tell his wife Jan hi for ya too!

[pcsb23]

OK folks, one warning and one warning only.

Stop this now. This is no longer a debate, it has become a slanging match. Agree to disagree and move on.

If you persist, your posting privileges will be removed, no ifs, no buts and no maybe's.

[ericatdallas]

LOL, read the first three pages and the last page of this thread. Some things never change. :P

I think people in Asia have successfully used pig hearts.

[dprais1]

Honestly, i'm interested in the fasting idea but on the same note nobody here is trying to duplicate 'wild' environments in their tanks, we don't fluctuate current, temps, or quality with the seasons or food choices. We don't purposefully infect fish with parasites either. Mostly i would like to see some evidence in the way of peer-reviewed papers supporting fasting either in people or fish.

[brianyam]

Actually, allot of guys fast their fish. It is not that crazy as it sounds to some. Allot do the skip sunday feeding, or the do the every other day feeding. Very common on other fish forums such as monsterfish or planet catfish. Not only that, it lowers the bioload on your filter/water, so you don't need to do WC as often. And you save on food. I usually skip a day here and there.

But hey, I guess the fun part is feeding your fish. So do what is fun I guess.

In the wild, fish and animals have to fast (or low calories) all the time.

[ericatdallas]

Mostly i would like to see some evidence in the way of peer-reviewed papers supporting fasting either in people or fish.

I found a ton of articles on peer-reviewed journal articles regarding "repetitive periods of fasting and satiation feeding".

There aren't a lot of journal articles out there on Discus, but food fish such as catfish, salmon, etc aren't uncommon.

Try www.sciencedirect.com

[daveo]

I read o my in this thread, and I think lets break out popcorn. Now I say we need a lock out please!
I beg you lets end this one. The newbie started off a little off tilt but lets let it GO.

Daveo