Planted discus tank with minimal maintenance - can it be done?

[janeyg]

Hello,
I come from the "reefkeeping world" but have always been interested in a discus tank. I have an area in my living room that would be an excellent spot for a discus tank - it could be up to 100g but a little less would be optimal. However, I understand that discus are pretty high maintenance as far as water quality goes. Coming from experience with a pristine SPS coral reef tank, I understand this importance - but I rarely do water changes on my saltwater tank (perhaps once per 3 weeks?) because my extreme filtration (namely protein skimming) makes up for it.

Water changes have always been a pain for me with saltwater. I have a couple of smaller freshwater tanks (20g) that get weekly water changes but this is quite a pain as well (scooting around with 5g buckets + clumsy + carpet doesn't make my parents happy). Basically, unless I find an easy way of doing them, it would really be ideal for me to only do water changes perhaps once per week or a little more. It would be extra ideal if I could even move all my current fish in with the discus as well so I only have to do them in one tank - all the fish are discus friendly though.

However, I also would really like a planted tank. The aquarium would be in my living room and I really love the look of a planted tank - I appreciate the ease and "look" of a barebottom tank but I would really want it to be a centerpiece. Looking through my Takashi Amano book, I noticed he has a few planted Discus tanks that only get water changes once per week: this would really be my ideal.

I am wondering, basically, if this is even possible? I am more than willing to shell out the cash: I'm a teenager but I have an income that I use for saving and aquariums (my hobby). Any ideas on how to make this possible? Or should I just find a new fish? Thanks! ;)

[Orange Crush]

Water changes.....an easy way of doing them, it would really be ideal for me to only do water changes perhaps once per week or a little more.
However, I also would really like a planted tank......I appreciate the ease and "look" of a barebottom tank but I would really want it to be a centerpiece......Looking through my Takashi Amano book, I noticed he has a few planted Discus tanks that only get water changes once per week: this would really be my ideal.
Using a python water changer means no schlepping buckets and is super easy. Parents happy. You can do frequent wc's.
You can have a planted tank with adult discus or you could try a thin layer of sand (but not the kind used for saltwater tanks) with plants in terra cotta pots with discus 4"+
T. Amano is an aquarium rock star and really knows what he is doing but it is really hard for people starting out to avoid sick/dead discus with a planted tank especially if they are not adult discus.
If you do not want to do more than 1 wc per week even with a python then discus are definately not the fish for you. Most successful long term discus keepers recommend daily wc's. You can get away with less wc's and many will say that they do but having a fish stay alive for awhile does not mean it is the way to keep a discus healthy and live as long as they should.

[janeyg]

Using a python water changer means no schlepping buckets and is super easy. Parents happy. You can do frequent wc's.
You can have a planted tank with adult discus or you could try a thin layer of sand (but not the kind used for saltwater tanks) with plants in terra cotta pots with discus 4"+
T. Amano is an aquarium rock star and really knows what he is doing but it is really hard for people starting out to avoid sick/dead discus with a planted tank especially if they are not adult discus.
If you do not want to do more than 1 wc per week even with a python then discus are definately not the fish for you. Most successful long term discus keepers recommend daily wc's. You can get away with less wc's and many will say that they do but having a fish stay alive for awhile does not mean it is the way to keep a discus healthy and live as long as they should.
You would think I would know about pythons by now! :lipsrseal: That sound a ton easier than the way I've been doing them :kiss: I ordered one right now. I would be perfectly willing to do water changes more often that way, especially because the sink is close by. Perhaps 50% 2-4 times per week? I've heard of a few people keeping large barrels of aged water at a proper temperature, etc. for their water changes - I'm guessing that as long as you aren't doing massive %s it isn't that stressful though?

Now, I understand that juveniles can be quite sensitive and can be stunted pretty easily - at what point would you say a fish is an adult though? I was planning on buying them at 4'' or so as I heard that fairly large discus are easier to keep in general. I was also thinking of having about 5-6.

Now, about a planted aquarium - do you have anything to say about a substrate? This sounds like a big part of making it work out if a person is to do a planted tank as sucking out food, etc. seems to be very important. I was thinking of perhaps getting some ADA soil and ADA cosmetic sand on top - but I have no idea if it's ideal to have a very tiny grain size or large (I'm hearing differing opinions on that).

Thank you very much for your help! I really appreciate it! :D

[Orange Crush]

Perhaps 50% 2-4 times per week? I've heard of a few people keeping large barrels of aged water at a proper temperature, etc. for their water changes - I'm guessing that as long as you aren't doing massive %s it isn't that stressful though?

Now, I understand that juveniles can be quite sensitive and can be stunted pretty easily - at what point would you say a fish is an adult though? I was planning on buying them at 4'' or so as I heard that fairly large discus are easier to keep in general. I was also thinking of having about 5-6.

Now, about a planted aquarium - do you have anything to say about a substrate? This sounds like a big part of making it work out if a person is to do a planted tank as sucking out food, etc. seems to be very important. I was thinking of perhaps getting some ADA soil and ADA cosmetic sand on top - but I have no idea if it's ideal to have a very tiny grain size or large (I'm hearing differing opinions on that).

Thank you very much for your help! I really appreciate it! :D
What are the perameters of your tap water? pH, GH, kH, etc? People will age water if the pH changes much after 24 hours because discus really need stable water perams. They prefer soft, acidic water but it is better to have water that does not change than try to use chemicals to make the water ideal because then you get fluct. of pH and hardness. If it is really bad or if someone is trying to breed they will sometimes use RO/tap combo or straight RO. Most people are fine with tap water though, many use a python with the temp of the tap water set to match what is in the tank.
I myself use a python and do 90-95% wc's daily, they get used to it pretty fast. I use Prime or Safe dechlor (both very pop with folks here) and put it in the tank before I start filling it up, be sure to use enough for the entire tank not just the amount of water you are adding.

Juvies are sensitive so I would recommend fish that are at least 4-5" (sub-adults). Some adults do not get to be 6"+ because they were stunted so you have to go more by age than size, unless you are buying from a reputable sorurce like Kenny or Hans.
Discus are cichlids so aggression can be an issue but if you have at least 6 then that aggression is spread out a bunch and it is easier on them. Some can get away with 5 but it depends on the individual discus and if 1 dies then you may have real agg. issues.

I have never used soil in a tank because I like to be able to really clean the subtrate. Even with a sand cap in order to vacuum the stuff off the bottom soil will get stirred up dirty your tank. You can use pfs #20 and it will be large enough grains that very little of it will be siphoned off so you can really get in there and suck up stuff; just no dirt under it. I myself use Seachem plant subtrate in most of my tanks; either onyx sand or flourite. However, in my discus tank I have my plants in pots with flourite and root tabs capped with sand. My discus are around 5" now and will be putting them in that tank in a few days. So excited! I have kept them in a BB tank so far and it is very easy but I love my plants!

Read some of the "stickies" in the beginner section as it will provide a lot more info and other people's opinions than just mine.

Welcome BTW:balloon:

[judy]

Given all the parameters you have stated in your original post (planted, put your other fish in with the discus, once weekly WCs): no. you should not keep discus. Read the various stickies on the subject to learn why...

[Skip]

get freshwater shrimp.. not discus

[lipadj46]

get freshwater shrimp.. not discus

Funny you mention this but I've been having way more fun with my little 10 gal shrimp tank than my discus tank lately. My kids love the shrimp too and say the fish are boring lol!

sent from my ti-85 during chemistry class

[janeyg]

What are the perameters of your tap water? pH, GH, kH, etc? People will age water if the pH changes much after 24 hours because discus really need stable water perams. They prefer soft, acidic water but it is better to have water that does not change than try to use chemicals to make the water ideal because then you get fluct. of pH and hardness. If it is really bad or if someone is trying to breed they will sometimes use RO/tap combo or straight RO. Most people are fine with tap water though, many use a python with the temp of the tap water set to match what is in the tank.
I myself use a python and do 90-95% wc's daily, they get used to it pretty fast. I use Prime or Safe dechlor (both very pop with folks here) and put it in the tank before I start filling it up, be sure to use enough for the entire tank not just the amount of water you are adding.

Juvies are sensitive so I would recommend fish that are at least 4-5" (sub-adults). Some adults do not get to be 6"+ because they were stunted so you have to go more by age than size, unless you are buying from a reputable sorurce like Kenny or Hans.
Discus are cichlids so aggression can be an issue but if you have at least 6 then that aggression is spread out a bunch and it is easier on them. Some can get away with 5 but it depends on the individual discus and if 1 dies then you may have real agg. issues.

I have never used soil in a tank because I like to be able to really clean the subtrate. Even with a sand cap in order to vacuum the stuff off the bottom soil will get stirred up dirty your tank. You can use pfs #20 and it will be large enough grains that very little of it will be siphoned off so you can really get in there and suck up stuff; just no dirt under it. I myself use Seachem plant subtrate in most of my tanks; either onyx sand or flourite. However, in my discus tank I have my plants in pots with flourite and root tabs capped with sand. My discus are around 5" now and will be putting them in that tank in a few days. So excited! I have kept them in a BB tank so far and it is very easy but I love my plants!

Read some of the "stickies" in the beginner section as it will provide a lot more info and other people's opinions than just mine.

Welcome BTW:balloon:
Thank you for the detailed response. My tap water is on par with the parameters discus need...my main freshwater tank has rams who get water changes 2x per week (I switch off doing water changes with my sibling but will be doing a lot more now!). I can see the challenge in keeping a clean substrate - I'll try to find a way around it perhaps or just use potted plants I guess. I've heard that a white sandbed is better because the food, etc. is more visible for manual removal, so maybe I'll start from there. I'll read up a bit more on this. Considering that I don't have any near-by breeders and the LFS here have bad quality discus, I think I would buy from Kenny or someone online if I were to buy them. I've read all the stickies but I'll do some digging for "good to know" topics as well!



Given all the parameters you have stated in your original post (planted, put your other fish in with the discus, once weekly WCs): no. you should not keep discus. Read the various stickies on the subject to learn why...
Thank you for the opinion! I really do like hearing why I shouldn't - but I really do like the idea of keeping discus in a planted, somewhat community setting. As for the other fish, the only ones I was planning on moving in were my German Blue Ram pair and ~15 neon tetras. I'll plan on doing more water changes. However, the main thing I was asking in the topic is not *if* it can work, but rather *how* it can work - I know it's been done before (planted tanks that is). I own Amano's Nature Aquarium book. He has discus in planted setups with a substrate, tankmates, and (if I remember correctly - it's been a while since I've read it) it says he only does weekly water changes (I would be perfectly fine to do much more now, however, especially if the python works out well). I have plenty of money to shell out on a nice looking planted set up (it's not that barebottom looks ugly to me, but rather that it looks like it's "missing" something) and was hoping to hear ways to make this work out. I consider myself to be an expert marine aquarist but do admit I am not a total expert on freshwater (even though I own a few planted tanks). However, the basic idea is the same - my SPS reef requires top-notch husbandry to keep its colors and health, which I am able to provide with a ton of filtration. I am kind of hoping to have a "semi automated" system for discus basically.


get freshwater shrimp.. not discus
That's actually how I make some of my money - I sell Crystal Red Shrimp online on the side. :)

[Orange Crush]

A lot of filtration may work for reef tanks but filtration, no matter how much, will substitute water changes for discus.
White/offwhite sand not only makes it easier to find stuff but it also can help prevent "peppering" in PB strains of discus which many find unsightly.

[janeyg]

Thank you for your response again! I guess that's basically what I was looking for. I think I'll wait until I see how easy water changes are before I buy the set up, etc. and go from there. I'll also read up on automatic water changers for throughout the week.

[judy]

I went barebottom with potted plants. Much easier to maintain, has the planted tank look and the added bonus of being able to re-landscape your plantings anytime just by pushing pots around. If you really want a planted tank, I would suggest this route, and more frequent, very large water changes and bottom vaccing. Also, do not attempt grow-out in the tank. Get larger (4 inch-plus) fish.

[Offpath]

My personal experience is that Discus do just fine in a planted display tank with weekly water changes given several very important conditions:
- Adult discus only
- Understock by a wide margin
- Enough experience to already be comfortable keeping discus
- Enough experience to already be comfortable keeping a planted tank

I have previous experience with planted tanks, so I thought I could just buy some discus and grow them out in the planted tank. I'm quite happy the members of this forum convinced me to go with a bare-bottom grow out tank instead. Essentially, by growing out discus in a bare-bottom 55gal, it gave me 6-12 months to really get the parameters right on my 210gal planted tank and I got to learn how to keep discus in a much more forgiving environment. By waiting until the discus were at least 5" before transferring them to the planted tank, I got them to a point where I wasn't doing heavy feedings of beefheart, so I don't have to do frequent large water changes on my display tank.

6 discus do look a little lost in a 210gal tank, though, even with the plants. =)

My advice is that if you want a planted tank with discus, learn how to do both separately first.

[T_om]

There is no reason at all why you cannot keep Discus in a planted tank with relatively low maintenance. The post above is a great example of how to do it.

Weekly water changes, relatively low fish density, adult fish = no problem.

Actually, the very first Discus I ever kept were a gift from a friend that did exactly that... keeping wild Browns. And they even spawned regularly. But the tap water we were lucky enough to have was naturally soft, no RO or DI in those days to speak of anyway. He had a gorgeous tank built into the wall of his study. About 150 gallons. He had 6 wild Browns in that tank with a couple of Corys and a breeding pair of Kribensis (yeah, I know it is strange... he loved his Kribs as much or more than his Discus).

Tank looked good, fish looked good.

Tom

[Skip]

My advice is that if you want a planted tank with discus, learn how to do both separately first.

NOW THATS ADVICE!

[magewynd]

I agree with Skip. This is one of the best pieces of advice I've seen here. Pure and simple, from experience. Maybe you can post this in the "my experience with planted tanks" in the beginners section.


My personal experience is that Discus do just fine in a planted display tank with weekly water changes given several very important conditions:
- Adult discus only
- Understock by a wide margin
- Enough experience to already be comfortable keeping discus
- Enough experience to already be comfortable keeping a planted tank



My advice is that if you want a planted tank with discus, learn how to do both separately first.

[discuspaul]

Superb advice above, janeyg. Please follow it.
One other minor sidenote as food for thought when you get past the planted stage, and if you decide on the planted community tank with discus, forgo the Neons. The Rams would be fine, but the Neons don't handle the higher discus temps well, and will likely perish one at a time over a relatively short period of time. They won't live long, not to mention they could also be lunchmeat for sub-adult, or adult discus.
There are many other compatible tankmates for discus, among the Tetras are Cardinals, Rummy-Noses, Lemons, and others - along with a number of other species. Suggest you do a little research in this area.

[janeyg]

Hey everyone,

Wow! Thanks for all the excellent advice. :D For now I think I am just going to set up the tank as a planted tank and wait until summer to decide if I'm going to get Discus - there's a lot of research to do! I think I will get adults (if I do). In the meantime, I have to buy the tank! I'll let everyone know when I get them (or post some questions before!). Didn't realize that about neons by the way - I'll probably have to trade them in (thanks for the heads up there!). Thanks again!

[discuspaul]

FWIW - Just as a starting off point, it may give you a little help to have a read of my "Beginner's Guide to Getting Started with Discus", located here as a Sticky in the 'Discus Basics' section.
Once you get comfortable with setting up & maintaining a planted tank environment, and seeing it progress as you would like it, if that's the plan, and you want to move on to the next step - getting the discus - then call on the group here to help you out with any questions that may arise at that point - including e.g., sources to get the best quality discus, etc., so that you get yourself off on the best possible footing to begin with.