New Breeding Project...Not Fish...but challenging none-the-less....

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
Well been planning this awhile, but last week I took steps to start a new breeding project...Tiger Salamanders.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_Salamander ..
I've wanted to work on these awhile...as they are not bred much in captivity. I think theres a need for that... so I hope in time to refine a way to do this.....we'll see. I practiced a bit last year with a smaller cousin of theirs, spotted salamanders...I had them bred in my pond, and I was able to raise the larvae to juveniles...so I should be able to apply that here.

These Salamanders are really incredible....some get to almost 14 inches.. I have a group of 3 males and 3 females...wild caught. These are not local to Connecticut, but in some states are very common. If you are a fisherman in the south or west you may have bought the larvae as bait..They are called mud puppys/water dogs ...These are a favorite bass bait .

So anyway....I am starting what I hope will be a good breeding project...either way, I am enjoying them just as.

Some pics....

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l199/brewmaster15/Tiger%20Salamanders/IMGP0021.jpg

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l199/brewmaster15/Tiger%20Salamanders/IMGP0013.jpg

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l199/brewmaster15/Tiger%20Salamanders/IMGP0005.jpg

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l199/brewmaster15/Tiger%20Salamanders/IMGP0011.jpg

[Eddie]

Those are COOL! Can't wait to see how this project goes! All the best with them Al!

[Second Hand Pat]

So some bass fishing in your future Al :) ....have fun with these guys.

[brewmaster15]

Oh Btw... Should any of you fisherman come across any bait shops selling these as larvae... I would be grateful if you would buy some for me, and ship them to me...I would cover the costs...

The Larvae can be interesting as well as some never morph into land adults, they stay as whats called canabalistic morphs, get bigger heads and teeth...and look out if you are a smaller one in the area or just about anything else that will fit in its mouth.

http://www.google.com/search?q=water+dogs+salamander&hl=en&client=ubuntu&hs=TeF&sa=X&channel=cs&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ei=WjeQT4yBG8mN6QHgyfSiBA&ved=0CCsQsAQ&biw=1440&bih=758

[johnnathan]

Al

Good Lucky for your new project.. Look interesting..

[Cameronv]

Very cool, I've often thought about putting salamanders in the tank but thought it was too risky with the investments. Good luck breeding them and If I come across any eggs (I fish here and there) I'll be sure to snag some for you.

[JenTN]

Very cool! We have tons of salamanders in our backyard creek. My kids love fishing them out and finding the different life stages of them. Someone told me someone from the county said they are an endangered species, not sure if its true or not.

[brewmaster15]

Very cool! We have tons of salamanders in our backyard creek. My kids love fishing them out and finding the different life stages of them. Someone told me someone from the county said they are an endangered species, not sure if its true or not.

Definetly need to be careful there...as unfortunately some species of amphibians are not doing well these days due to a whole bunch of issues from acid rain, pollution, pet trade, invasive species, and habitat loss. Even among the Tiger Salamanders theres subspecies and populations that are threatened or endangered...so its best to always check with your Dept of Conservation as to their status.

BTW... these tiger salamanders can live up to 15 years if good care is given them.:D

-al

[JenTN]

Definetly need to be careful there...as unfortunately some species of amphibians are not doing well these days due to a whole bunch of issues from acid rain, pollution, pet trade, invasive species, and habitat loss. Even among the Tiger Salamanders theres subspecies and populations that are threatened or endangered...so its best to always check with your Dept of Conservation as to their status.

BTW... these tiger salamanders can live up to 15 years if good care is given them.:D

-al

Yup, the kids get them out with a net, observe them in a bucket and put them back. My future scientists :-) They are so excited about our discus spawn lol my 6 yr son wants to breed plecos now lol. They broke a large angelfish net catching salamanders one summer.

[nc0gnet0]

Very cool AL!

I will continue to keep my eyes pealed here to see if I can find any live specimins. We have had some crazy weather here as of late, so I am not sure how this is effecting thier breeding routine. One week it was in the 80's for a week solid, only to have snow the following week.

http://www.caudata.org/forum/

Rick

[brewmaster15]

Thanks Rick...
We have a similar problem here. Its been so warm and dry here. We should be soaking wet with April showers...yet there have been none..We have brush fires and open fire bans in effect...never like this in the spring. I am very worried about our local population of spotted salamanders...These breed in Vernal pools...but with no rain, there are not any..and most of the ponds are very very dry.


Btw...that forum is a great one..:)
-al

[Chicago Discus]

Al thats cool I like them, I have relatives that look like that LOL LOL LOL.......Josie

[Rummy]

What beautiful creatures. Enjoy your project.

[BrandyK]

cool project I breed alot of ball pythons. Check out kingsnake.com their is alot of cool stuff on their including salamanders

[brewmaster15]

cool project I breed alot of ball pythons. Check out kingsnake.com their is alot of cool stuff on their including salamanders
I love that site. I bought several rat snakes there and my red footed tortoise hatchlings came from a breeder there. Very dangerous site though for someone trying to curb their critter collection!!!!!!!!!
-al

[joanstone]

Great project, I will be very interesting in following along.

[brewmaster15]

What beautiful creatures. Enjoy your project. Thanks Anik, BTW..back to our pentax lens discussion... I messed up on the last shot by shaking my hand, but those pics were with my 50 mm macro FA 2.8 lens on my K20D DSLR.:)
-al

[Rummy]

Thanks Anik, BTW..back to our pentax lens discussion... I messed up on the last shot by shaking my hand, but those pics were with my 50 mm macro FA 2.8 lens on my K20D DSLR.:)
-al

LOL. I am so glad you mentioned the camera! I didn't want to bring it up in this thread since you had not mentioned anything. The photos are wonderful. I'll bet those salamanders are going to be a nice challenge as far as photography goes. The shininess (is that a word?) will prove a little hard to get around. Those are the types of shots that I want to get. Also, if I necropsy a fish, I want good photos as well. That lens would be perfect. I have to remind hubbie (Jose) that mother's day is coming up soon. While we are talking photos, the ships are incredible. I love the gray day with the gray boats in the first shots. I can't put my finger on it. But the shots are great.
I am off to pick up my son from school (newly graduated to scout). He will get a kick out of those ships.

[brewmaster15]

LOL. I am so glad you mentioned the camera! I didn't want to bring it up in this thread since you had not mentioned anything. The photos are wonderful. I'll bet those salamanders are going to be a nice challenge as far as photography goes. The shininess (is that a word?) will prove a little hard to get around. Those are the types of shots that I want to get. Also, if I necropsy a fish, I want good photos as well. That lens would be perfect. I have to remind hubbie (Jose) that mother's day is coming up soon. While we are talking photos, the ships are incredible. I love the gray day with the gray boats in the first shots. I can't put my finger on it. But the shots are great.
I am off to pick up my son from school (newly graduated to scout). He will get a kick out of those ships.
Thanks Anik... Yes that lens would be great for necros... I have used it for similar in the past.... on the ships... Theres two cameras used, one is pocket kodak cheap oh digital that we used for many of the onboard shots.. WE kept our pentax gear locked up in the trunk and broke it out in the am before leaving...\

Those shots were taken with them..
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l199/brewmaster15/battleshipcove/IMGP9954.jpg
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l199/brewmaster15/battleshipcove/IMGP9956.jpg
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l199/brewmaster15/battleshipcove/IMGP9970.jpg
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l199/brewmaster15/battleshipcove/100_1263.jpg

The lens here is a Tamron 28-300mm F/3.5-6.3 XR AF LD IF Macro Zoom Lens for Pentax..Its an unbelievably versatile lens. I have only had it a short time but I have been using it more and more.. I think its very suited for architecture and structure.

hth,
al

[Harry Marsh]

Neat. I can remember using these for catfish bait in Ohio.
They would sell them at bait shops. Big bins full of the mud puppys

[zimmjeff]

when I started to read I thought that it was going to say your wife was pregnant.

[Tofe]

Al,
I love it, something new to see when I come by!!!:):)
How big of an area do you think you need to get them to breed? Did you mail order them?

They are awesome looking and good luck breeding them. I hope to see eggs when I come by

Brian

[brewmaster15]

Hi Brian,
I mail ordered them from a supplier, as they aren't found in CT. They tend to be aggressive as adults to one another, so I have them housed separately....1 per 29 gal tank.....Whats nice is they prefer it cool so they are in the garage ....could have made do with a 10 gal tank, but I have an abundance of 29s. They'll stay in these all summer and into the fall, and winter...I'll let them hibernate in them , then while still dormant, I'll move them to their breeder tank. Its a 125 gal that I split in half with a glass plate...half land, half water... They'll go in the land side, emerge hopefull migrate to the water side to breed. This is pretty much what they do in the wild.

If I succeed that far, i'm golden...I have that zebra fish breeding rack in my garage that will be used to house the larvae..


-al

Al,
I love it, something new to see when I come by!!!:):)
How big of an area do you think you need to get them to breed? Did you mail order them?

They are awesome looking and good luck breeding them. I hope to see eggs when I come by

Brian

[Rummy]

I hope you will keep us updated on this whole process. It sounds fascinating and it give us something new to learn about. It would be great to see the setups once they are complete as well. Will the breeding tank turn into more like a terrarium?

[kent1963]

Good luck with this Al these guys are pretty common in Iowa but they are about the only amphibians we have other then frogs.When I was in elementary school we lived in upstate NY and it seemed there were many different small salamanders in the woods.I've kept a few but never even thought about breeding them. Please take lots of pics of the different stages if you secede.

[brewmaster15]

I hope you will keep us updated on this whole process. It sounds fascinating and it give us something new to learn about. It would be great to see the setups once they are complete as well. Will the breeding tank turn into more like a terrarium?

I will do just that.. and yes the breeding tank will look like a terrarium....actually I hope it will look like the shore of a pond.:D

-al

[dprais1]

Al,
mudpuppies are NOT tiger salamanders so be very careful before someone sends them to you. Tiger salamanders from west coast generally have better coloration...striking black and yellow versus the dirty yellow/green and black of the east coast.

kingsnake.com is a pretty good source for all 4 legged cold blooded critters.

tiger salamanders are usually found in forests and fields. for breeding ensure no current in the water side (maybe an airstone--maybe). other than EARLY spring, ice on the water surface early, these salamanders are usually found in moist (not damp) environments. lots of crickets and worms. chlorine free h20

be carefull about shipping, protected in some states.

if you ever getinvolved with turtles i'll be your new best friend:)

[brewmaster15]

Al,
mudpuppies are NOT tiger salamanders so be very careful before someone sends them to you. Tiger salamanders from west coast generally have better coloration...striking black and yellow versus the dirty yellow/green and black of the east coast.

kingsnake.com is a pretty good source for all 4 legged cold blooded critters.

tiger salamanders are usually found in forests and fields. for breeding ensure no current in the water side (maybe an airstone--maybe). other than EARLY spring, ice on the water surface early, these salamanders are usually found in moist (not damp) environments. lots of crickets and worms. chlorine free h20

be carefull about shipping, protected in some states.

if you ever getinvolved with turtles i'll be your new best friend:)

Thanks Dan, but unfortunately thats the symantecs of using common names... The name mudpuppies/water dogs is used in many ways. The one you are thinking of is the amphibian, Necturus spp... these critters are fully aquatic and often sold in pet shops as "mudpuppies" ...Tiger Salamanders are Abystoma sp. most sold are A.tigrinum.. and the larvae of these are infact commonly called "mudpuppies " or "water dogs" as well in fishing circles and are sold as such in bait shops. To make matters more confusing the Necturus "mudpuppies" look very similar to the Larvae of the tiger salamanders.... even size wise as some Tiger salamanders do not lose their gills and leave the water.... some info follows.

info here...

http://www3.northern.edu/natsource/AMPHIB1/Salama1.htm


TIGER SALAMANDER
(Ambystoma tigrinum)

Description
Tiger salamanders are 4-legged, tailed amphibians. Adult salamanders are often mistaken for lizards. Unlike reptiles, amphibians have moist, scaleless skin, bulging eyes, and no claws on their feet. Adult tiger salamanders have a broad head, a long sticky tongue, and a mouth shaped almost like a smile. Their four legs extend from the sides of their bodies, giving them a peculiar gait. The adult normal body length for a tiger salamander is 6 to 8 inches (15 - 20 cm) with a record length of 13 inches (33 cm). They are easily recognized by their olive or yellow bars, blotches, or spots along their black or brownish body.


When first hatched in the water, tiger salamander larvae are tiny, almost transparent and without legs. They have external gills that extend in long feathery plumes to take oxygen from the water. They rapidly grow to almost adult size and develop legs. Tiger salamander larvae and mudpuppies (a salamander in the genus Necturus that lives only in aquatic habitats and never transforms into a terrestrial form) look very much alike and are often confused. To add to the confusion, tiger
salamander larvae are sometimes used for fishing bait and sold by bait shops as "mudpuppies." One way to tell the two salamanders apart is by their toes. Tiger salamanders have 5 toes on their hind feet and only 4 on their front, while mudpuppies have only 4 toes on each foot.
Distribution

The tiger salamander is the only salamander species found in South Dakota. They are found statewide, but three different subspecies exist in the state. The most widely distributed form in South Dakota, the blotched tiger salamander (A.t. melanostictum), is found west river and over a large area east of the Missouri River. The gray tiger salamander (A.t. diaboli) is found in the northeastern part of the state and the eastern tiger salamander (A.t. tigrinum) is found in the southeastern counties. However, tiger salamanders have been so widely transported as fish bait they are now established in many localities and it is difficult to define their natural ranges.


Natural History

In spring, tiny, almost transparent tiger salamander larvae hatch out of their eggs. Like all amphibian eggs, these are shell-less and laid in fresh water. The aquatic larvae are aggressive predators, eating water fleas, insect larvae, other invertebrates, and some vertebrates, including other salamander larvae. They grow rapidly through the summer in ponds, streams, roadside ditches, and other water sources. Eventually, tiger salamanders develop air-breathing lungs and leave the water. occasionally, some individuals may retain their gills and aquatic form while becoming sexually mature, as does the mudpuppy. Many species of vertebrate animals will prey on salamander larvae and adults.

By fall, many tiger salamanders will have traveled considerable distances from their place of hatching. Sluggish and shy, they travel only for the mating season and during heavy rains. They spend most of their adult lives in soft soil and under logs. To
avoid temperature and moisture extremes, tiger salamanders use the burrows of various rodents and crayfish. At night they hunt small insects, earthworms, and any other small creatures that they can swallow, capturing their prey with a quick sideways snap of their jaws. Salamanders do not have external ears or ear drums and probably "hear" through sensing vibrations with their feet! Winter finds them hibernating deep in moist mammal burrows, buried in the earth, or hiding in protected areas below the frost line.

As winter ends, tiger salamanders come out of hibernation to return to their ancestral breeding ponds. Eastern tiger salamanders are very early spring breeders. They may actually gather in deep water under ice to perform their courtship rituals. The nocturnal journey to the breeding pond is a dangerous time for salamanders. If the landscape has developed over the years, they may have to cross roads, backyards, and other obstacles. It is not known exactly how they find their way back to their breeding sites, but studies have concluded that it may be that some salamanders can determine the position
of the sun by polarized light. The males arrive first. Once the females arrive, the tiger salamanders engage in a water-ballet of courting activities. Eventually the male deposits a package of sperm on the bottom of the pond. The female swims over this
package and picks it up. Within her body the package dissolves and the eggs are fertilized by the sperm. She then deposits, in clumps of 2 to 3, the sticky fertilized eggs on various sticks or weed masses near the water's edge. There are reports of females laying up to 1000 eggs. Normal incubation takes place in 2 to 3 weeks, but the timing depends on the water temperature. Development is accelerated in warmer temperatures.

Tiger Salamanders In The Classroom

A useful resource for maintaining animals in the classroom is the appendix of the Project WILD book: "Guidelines for Responsible Use of Animals in the Classroom," a National Science Teachers Association position statement. Especially after a rain, teachers can easily find themselves inundated with injured, improperly handled salamanders brought in by enthusiastic students. Teachers are responsible for instructing students in the proper acquisition, care, and disposition of classroom animals. It is wise to think through ahead of time how you are going to obtain, care for and dispose of animals at the conclusion of the unit of study.

Salamanders can be kept easily in a classroom in an aquarium filled with several inches of moist dirt, a source of water, and a secure, ventilated cover. Students could design controlled experiments to study salamander behavior, food and habitat preferences, and reactions to stimuli. Salamanders eat live prey which must be purchased or raised. Purchasing mealworms or crickets from a pet store for an entire school year for one salamander may be expensive, but the salamander can be fed cheaply if earthworms, grasshoppers, and mealworms are captured and raised in the classroom. A South Dakota student who kept one of these salamanders as a pet for several years, reported that it burrowed under the mud each winter and came out of hibernation each spring within 2 weeks of Easter, even though it was housed indoors. Salamanders secrete a mucus to keep their skin surface moist and some salamander species also secrete a mild poison to deter predators. For this reason, hands should always be moistened before and washed after handling salamanders.

Management Considerations


Salamanders are important animals in the aquatic ecosystems of South Dakota. They are dependent on clean water and the presence of healthy wetland habitats. It is legal to collect these animals for personal use as pets or for scientific study. They make good classroom pets, but responsible, humane treatment of animals always should be emphasized with students.

South Dakota residents may catch limited numbers of salamanders for use and sale as bait. For details about the regulations pertaining to this use of salamanders, refer to the most recent South Dakota Fishing Handbook published by the S.D. Game, Fish, and Parks Department.

Glossary

Aquatic - referring to fresh water.
Amphibian - a cold-blooded, smooth-skinned vertebrate of the class Amphibia, such as a frog or salamander, that characteristically hatches as an aquatic larva with gills.
Hibernate - to be in a state of dormancy during the winter in which metabolic activity and
heart rate are reduced.
Invertebrate - any animals that lacks an internal skeleton of cartilage or bone.
Larva - (plural: larvae or larvas) - the newly hatched, often worm-like, immature form of various animals that differs markedly in form and appearance from the adult.
Metamorphosis - the series of distinct stages in the development from egg to adult. In amphibians the aquatic larva that have gills and live in water, transforms into an adult that lives on land and has air-breathing lungs.
Nocturnal - active at night.
Subspecies - populations of a species that are physically or behaviorally different from other populations within the species but still capable of interbreeding.
Range - the geographic region in which a plant or an animal normally lives or grows.
Terrestrial - living on land.
Vertebrate - those animals with a backbone.

References



also... see here.. info on water dogs as bait.
http://www.livewaterdogs.com/Facts.htm


Our waterdogs are packed carefully to ensure a safe delivery. They are hand counted so you know you get what you pay for. We also pick off the salamanders so you won't get anything you can't use for bait.

http://gfp.sd.gov/wildlife/critters/amphibians-reptiles/mudpuppy-tiger-salamander.aspx

Tiger Salamander photos (above) by Greg Wolbrink, South Dakota Game, Fish and Parks.
Tiger Salamanders have five toes on the hind feet, mudpuppies have four.

What is it: A Mudpuppy or Tiger Salamander?
By Alyssa Kiesow

Winter is gone, spring is here, and summer is near. Mixtures of colors- green, blue, yellow, and purple- appear in the landscape as plants revive themselves. Camouflaged in the newly refreshed landscape are many animals, such as amphibians. Amphibians, like frogs, toads, and salamanders, rely on the environment and their behavior to regulate their body temperature- called ectothermy, thus they are found during the warm spring and summer months. As the climate warms up, the chorus of frogs and toads initiate the spring mating season, but unlike frogs and toads, salamanders do not create choruses in the night.

Salamanders, in particular Mudpuppies, have recently been a "hot" topic among many biologists, anglers, and naturalists. A short time ago, my husband and I discussed our encounters with Mudpuppies and Tiger Salamanders in the "field" and in bait shops. During our conversation, my husband mentioned that when he was in high school he handled Mudpuppies while working at a local bait shop. He recalled selling Mudpuppies to South Dakota anglers for use as bait, probably for bass or catfish. Because Mudpuppies are very rare in South Dakota, he thought it was unlikely that this local bait shop was selling so-called "Mudpuppies." Most likely, these "Mudpuppies" were actually larval (or sometimes adult) Tiger Salamanders unknowingly named as Mudpuppies, which happens quite commonly in bait shops, among anglers, and even among biologists.

Mudpuppies (Necturus maculosus) and (larval) Tiger Salamanders (Ambystoma tigrinum) are the two types of salamanders found in South Dakota that can be easily confused and misidentified (Figs. 1 and 2). Mudpuppies are permanently aquatic salamanders therefore they have gills, and they reside in permanent bodies of water. Tiger Salamanders, on the other hand, are usually found in water or on land (in moist areas), depending on their life stage. More specifically, larval (or sometimes adult) Tiger Salamanders live in permanent bodies of water, and adult Tiger Salamanders reside in moist areas on land such as cellars or basements. At times, land-dwelling adult Tiger Salamanders can be quite noisy, sounding like an unusual cricket, due their teeth gritting abilities even though they are harmless. Both of South Dakota's salamanders are active at night, resting in/under protective cover (e.g., logs, vegetation, etc.) during the day.

Tiger Salamanders have two life stages: 1) larvae and 2) adult. In the larval stage (and on a rare occasion in the adult stage), Tiger Salamanders can be mistaken as Mudpuppies (Figs. 1 and 2). Sometimes Tiger Salamanders remain in the gilled, larval stage as a mature adult - called a waterdog or neotene. The way to determine the difference between larval (and/or neotene) Tiger Salamanders and Mudpuppies is by counting the number of toes on the hind feet. Larval Tiger Salamanders have five toes on the hind feet (Fig. 3), while Mudpuppies have four. Oftentimes, the fifth toe (on the larval [and/or neotene] Tiger Salamander) is difficult to see, so flattening the toes on a sturdy surface allows the number toes to be revealed, providing for the correct identification of the species.

With rare species, correct identification is important. Because Mudpuppies are only found in extreme northeastern South Dakota, the South Dakota Natural Heritage Program monitors them. Currently, our database lists only three records from 1924 to 1972, which are restricted to Day and Marshall counties. On the other hand, Tiger Salamanders (of which there are three subspecies in South Dakota) are commonly found throughout the state.

If you come across a permanent pool of water with salamanders and try to identify whether the pool is occupied with Mudpuppies or Tiger Salamanders, please remember to count the toes on the hind feet. Those with four toes are probably Mudpuppies, while those with five toes are potentially Tiger Salamanders. If a Mudpuppy is encountered in the "field", please contact one of the biologists with the South Dakota Natural Heritage Program to help us with our monitoring efforts. Your help and cooperation will further our understanding of the Mudpuppy population in northeastern South Dakota.




I know Kingsnake very well...
if you ever getinvolved with turtles i'll be your new best friend guess we are best buds now.. I have a "someday" breeding colony of Red foots Torts (6) that I have been raising now 4 years from captive bred hatchlings, 2 red eared sliders from pet rescue... also have several pairs of rat snakes... albino and albino intermediates. I was keeping reptiles and amphibians long before fish;):D

[nc0gnet0]

Al,

Thier breeding habits are fascinating, and thier larvae stage and metamorphisis even more fascinating. You should post some pictures to illustrate this.

Around here they are most likely to be found around vernal ponds in near marsh like conditions in the early spring.



"Salamanders have some very unique breeding habits. In most species, the fertilization of the eggs takes place before they are laid even though the male and female never actually mate! To find out how this can be, let's take a close look at the reproductive habits of a common Michigan species, the Blue-spotted Salamander. In very early spring these salamanders leave burrows in woodland soil where they over-wintered and migrate to shallow, temporary ponds. (This migration often occurs with the first snow melting rain of the season, when the ponds are still partially covered with ice!) In the water, a male "blue-spot" will court a female by nudging her head and body with his snout and chin, and then grasping her behind the front legs with his own forelegs. Eventually, the male crawls ahead of the female and deposits a small cone-shaped glob of jelly like material capped with sperm, called a spermatophore. The female can then crawl over the spermatophore and take the sperm into her cloaca (an internal chamber near the base of her tail) through the anal opening. Her eggs are then fertilized inside her body, perhaps one to several days before being laid."

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10370_12145_12201-61173--,00.html

I always thought that the mating occured on land, and then the eggs were laid in the water?



Rick

[dprais1]

OKAY Al,

you know your stuff. I have never heard of mudpuppies being confused with tiger salamanders...but then again, I don't fish. and local terminology can vary quite a bit.

I use to breed eastern box turtles, corn snakes, giant day geckos, uroplatus geckos.....

so good luck to you. I find many tigers where i live each summer or spring. if you are really interested let me know i will send them to you.
what is you ultimate goal? just to breed, develop a new morph? emphasize the yellow etc etc.

keep me posted
dan

[brewmaster15]

Thanks Dan, Coming from a biology background thats the first thing we learned... Common names can really muck things up.

Ideally I would like to perfect the breeding first in captivity first and then work on color morphs...I suspect based on the geographic variation seen in these that they are alot like discus in terms of the gene pool for phenotypic expression... That said.. I would greatly appreciate any Tiger Salamanders that you come across...provided they are not protected in your area.:)

[dprais1]

okay, give me a week or so, my schedule is very busy right now with both of my daughter's brithdays, work and finals for school.

the tifers in my area are a definate yellow/black. i've yet to see one with the green coloration but they still don't have that 'bumblebee' coloration found on the west coast

ps=my discus LOVE the blackworms, expect an order from me soon.