How many/for how long?

[Niko3434]

Hey guys,

First time posting here (although I read the threads here quite often :D) and I'm just looking for some advice from the pros on discus.

So basically, I've been keeping freshwater fish for the past 6 years and so last August I went and tried my hand at discus. I bought 5 red turquoise and set them up in a 55 gal that'd been cycling for a month. The fish were actually fine for two months, I fed them well; they started to grow. But then due to circumstances out of my hands, I had to get rid of the 55 gal. And so I gave my discus away to a friend of mine who has been taking great care of them (they're still alive, and they have grrooooowwwwn!).

Anyway, I currently have a 30 gal set up and running. Now I'm obviously going to end up needing a tank bigger than 30 gallons for discus, but the problem is that I won't be able to get a 50 gal until July. I'd like to get the discus now (or within the next couple of weeks) that way I can cycle the 50 gallon and move them there before school starts.

Also, I might have to get a 46 gallon instead of a 50 (due to space limitations). This would obviously not be ideal but I don't think it would be terribly bad.


I was planning on doing a bare bottom like last time just for simplicity and ease.



Okay back to the real question: how many discus (I'd be buying them as juveniles like 2.5 inches) could I keep in the 30 gal and for how long?


Thanks,
Niko

[Bill63SG]

IMO,you could do 5-7 with daily wc's,if you are getting the bigger tank in July.30 is probably preferable right now,easier wc's.

[Niko3434]

Okay but what if I was just gonna do maybe twice a week 30% changes?

[Bill63SG]

Read up on here.For fry/young'uns,we don't even argue about the daily wc's,only over how much.30% daily,IMO,isn't enough.50-75 or more is the norm.

[Griggsy]

We do once a week water changes at 20% and our water quality is super easy to maintain. I personally think that doing too many water changes is hard on the fish because tap water esp will fluctuate so much. In Coolidge we got water from different sources at different times of year and that was a bear to maintain a healthy water quality.

[Orange Crush]

I personally think that doing too many water changes is hard on the fish because tap water esp will fluctuate so much.
Doing water changes is not stressful on fish if done properly. Not doing daily water changes for discus that are 2.5" is asking for trouble.
Always age your water for 24 hours, then you will not have to worry about microbubbles, pH fluctuations, or temp changes. That way is stress free for the fish. Poor water quality is stressful and will lead to illnesses. You have to feed juvies several times a day and with all that food and poop the water is gonna get nasty quickly.

[Bill63SG]

Doing water changes is not stressful on fish if done properly. Not doing daily water changes for discus that are 2.5" is asking for trouble.
Always age your water for 24 hours, then you will not have to worry about microbubbles, pH fluctuations, or temp changes. That way is stress free for the fish. Poor water quality is stressful and will lead to illnesses. You have to feed juvies several times a day and with all that food and poop the water is gonna get nasty quickly.Some of us dont have the room to age our water.I have Never aged my water.Saying you always have to is misleading.Its what works for you.

[Orange Crush]

Some of us dont have the room to age our water.I have Never aged my water.Saying you always have to is misleading.Its what works for you.
Sorry, I was responding to Griigsy's comment about tap water fluctuations. I should have made that more clear!

[Bill63SG]

Sorry, I was responding to Griigsy's comment about tap water fluctuations. I should have made that more clear!Point taken.My tap does fluctuate with the seasons.

[Skip]

We do once a week water changes at 20% and our water quality is super easy to maintain. I personally think that doing too many water changes is hard on the fish because tap water esp will fluctuate so much. In Coolidge we got water from different sources at different times of year and that was a bear to maintain a healthy water quality.

if a newbie is reading this statement.. do not believe this to be advisable..

one can NEVER be wrong by doing water changes.. water quality is the primary reason for discus problems and water quality is the primary cure for most discus problems..

[zchauvin]

if a newbie is reading this statement.. do not believe this to be advisable..

one can NEVER be wrong by doing water changes.. water quality is the primary reason for discus problems and water quality is the primary cure for most discus problems..

+1.. too many water changes are bad?!?! May I ask where you got your information, or is that just a personal feeling? I mean I know a guy who only feeds discus once every other day but they die also...

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[zchauvin]

if a newbie is reading this statement.. do not believe this to be advisable..

one can NEVER be wrong by doing water changes.. water quality is the primary reason for discus problems and water quality is the primary cure for most discus problems..

+1.. too many water changes are bad?!?! May I ask where you got your information, or is that just a personal feeling? I mean I know a guy who only feeds discus once every other day but they die also...

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

[tannin]

One of the factors often not mentioned when discussing water changes, is the amount of bio-filtering. You can't compare what is necessary in a bare bottomed tank, with near zero bio-filtration, to a tank with a huge cannister, or even sump with large beds of bio-filtration, and maybe, in the case of a sump, large algae beds or forests of plants (in sump or tank) as well.

Doing too many water changes won't hurt, but the amount actually required must vary according to the setup.

[Wjmulder]

One of the factors often not mentioned when discussing water changes, is the amount of bio-filtering. You can't compare what is necessary in a bare bottomed tank, with near zero bio-filtration, to a tank with a huge cannister, or even sump with large beds of bio-filtration, and maybe, in the case of a sump, large algae beds or forests of plants (in sump or tank) as well.

Doing too many water changes won't hurt, but the amount actually required must vary according to the setup.

Looking forward to thoughts on this......

[frinklinduds]

+2 the more water you change the better off your fish will be...... also relating back to the post i beleive if u put 5 juvies in there you will need to do some form of waterchange everyday IMO, when they are young they are going to need optimal water quality to grow to max size at fastest rate and to STAY HEALTHY.... just my $0.02

[moon_knight1971]

Back to your question Niko, change at least 50 - 80 % of the water every day if you're going to use a bare bottom 30 and run a sponge filter from an air pump along with your regular filteration. When you get your 46 or 50 add the sponge filter to that tank for an instant cycle but continue with 50 - 80% water changes at least every other day and you should be good.

Joey!

[Orange Crush]

One of the factors often not mentioned when discussing water changes, is the amount of bio-filtering. You can't compare what is necessary in a bare bottomed tank, with near zero bio-filtration, to a tank with a huge cannister, or even sump with large beds of bio-filtration, and maybe, in the case of a sump, large algae beds or forests of plants (in sump or tank) as well.

Doing too many water changes won't hurt, but the amount actually required must vary according to the setup.
Filtration does not replace water changes. Whatever waste is in the tank stays there until you do a water change. It does not matter if the waste is trapped in the filter because, the water still runs through that which means the water is still just as polluted even though it may look more clean.

[Wjmulder]

Then why filter?

[Orange Crush]

Then why filter?
It is a place for BB to grow, oxygenation of the water, a place to put carbon for removing meds, etc.
Put it this way if you use a TDS meter the level will keep going up until you do a water change no matter how many filters you have in the tank.

[Wjmulder]

I have nothing scientific to base my thoughts on, however... I've been keeping lined koi ponds for more than 20 years and I can tell you that gravel bottom and lots of plants produces the best water quality. I know discus and koi are apples and oranges but water quality IS water quality. The bb in the gravel breaks down the fish waste and like you said, plants oxygenate the water.

Don't get me wrong, I believe water changes are important, but as someone else posted earlier, it's my belief that it's even more important in an empty bare bottom tank.

And before anyone goes nuclear on me, I vacuum my sand bottom discus tank thoroughly twice a week. I know discus need cleaner conditions than koi.

[Bill63SG]

Filtration does not replace water changes. Whatever waste is in the tank stays there until you do a water change. It does not matter if the waste is trapped in the filter because, the water still runs through that which means the water is still just as polluted even though it may look more clean.So we are establishing bio for no reason?Come on.I'm not pretending to know all here,but a well established sponge/es/ will break down waste.Whatever waste is in the tank stays in the tank?.Then lets only have airstones and do daily wc's.I believe newbies put on a canister or a hob and don't change it/clean it for a month or two,and therin lies the problem.

[Orange Crush]

So we are establishing bio for no reason?Come on.I'm not pretending to know all here,but a well established sponge/es/ will break down waste.Whatever waste is in the tank stays in the tank?.Then lets only have airstones and do daily wc's.I believe newbies put on a canister or a hob and don't change it/clean it for a month or two,and therin lies the problem.
Never said we were establishing BB for no reason. Ammonia and nitrIte need to be converted (but I know you know that). However, if all it took was lots of filtration to remove DOC's and keep TDS from rising we would not need to do water changes. And yes, not cleaning the filters does cause a problem because like I said before, filters do not take the waste out of the tank.
Sometimes newbies think that putting lots of filters on a tank will replace water changes and I am just trying to get them to understand that they do not. :)

[tannin]

Filtration does not replace water changes. Whatever waste is in the tank stays there until you do a water change. It does not matter if the waste is trapped in the filter because, the water still runs through that which means the water is still just as polluted even though it may look more clean.

You are thinking of physical filtration, I was speaking of biofiltration. What stays in a tank, doesn't have to stay in the harmful form that it first is introduced as. Biofilters break down the substances into less harmful substances very quickly, and they also get taken up into the structure of living things such as plants. Thus the water is NOT just as polluted, it is scrubbed clean by the biofiltration.

For example, when I weed out the ambulia that grows wild in my tank, I am removing large amounts of nitrates, and before I weed, they are bound up in the plant and harmless to the fish. Algae water scrubbers also do an excellent job of this. The nitrates are the what the biofiltration has converted harmful rotting food to - having progressed from ammonia, through nitrites, to nitrates.

[tannin]

Duplicate deleted...

[Orange Crush]

It's as if either no one is reading my posts or I am not writting very well tonight. :(
If you read all of my posts you will see that I mentioned the need for biofiltration many times (BB). I also said that we need filters for biofiltration because it does convert waste into ammonia, then nitrIte, then into harmless nitrAte. Filters, whether HOB, sponge, or canister are where the BB colonize. However, some people are of the mistaken belief that filters are enough to clean the tank when in reality filters are still part of the "system" and that the water runs through it. So the DOCs, waste, etc are now in the filter but that means it is still in the water, sort of speak. You can check this by monitering TDS levels. TDS continues to rise no mater how many filters you have on a tank.
This banter all started because some people seem to think that if you use enough filters you do not have to do as many water changes. My point is that you do need filters for biofiltration (see post 19) but that filters do not prevent a build up of stuff that needs to be removed which is why wc's are so important and filters do not replace wc's.
So weird. The people who I agree with are the one's who seem to think I am contradicting them but we are saying the same thing! I have been posting to inform those who said frequent wc's are not needed if you have enough filtration and those who said you do not need filtration because gravel and plants are enough to make the water clean. Why is no one saying anything about those posts? I am frustrated. Grrrr. Still love you all though. :angel:

[tannin]

It's as if either no one is reading my posts or I am not writting very well tonight. :(
If you read all of my posts you will see that I mentioned the need for biofiltration many times (BB). I also said that we need filters for biofiltration because it does convert waste into ammonia, then nitrIte, then into harmless nitrAte. Filters, whether HOB, sponge, or canister are where the BB colonize. However, some people are of the mistaken belief that filters are enough to clean the tank when in reality filters are still part of the "system" and that the water runs through it. So the DOCs, waste, etc are now in the filter but that means it is still in the water, sort of speak. You can check this by monitering TDS levels. TDS continues to rise no mater how many filters you have on a tank.
This banter all started because some people seem to think that if you use enough filters you do not have to do as many water changes. My point is that you do need filters for biofiltration (see post 19) but that filters do not prevent a build up of stuff that needs to be removed which is why wc's are so important and filters do not replace wc's.
So weird. The people who I agree with are the one's who seem to think I am contradicting them but we are saying the same thing! I have been posting to inform those who said frequent wc's are not needed if you have enough filtration and those who said you do not need filtration because gravel and plants are enough to make the water clean. Why is no one saying anything about those posts? I am frustrated. Grrrr. Still love you all though. :angel:

Don't be frustrated :) but I was not saying frequent water changes are not needed at all. I also never said gravel and plants were enough. I AM saying that they can be less frequent with good biofiltration. You also still said again, that waste stays in the filter, but it just doesn't. It breaks down to other things so it is no longer waste, and, most importantly, it is taken up into the structure of plants and/or algae beds - i.e. removed from the system.

[Orange Crush]

Don't be frustrated :) but I was not saying frequent water changes are not needed at all. I also never said gravel and plants were enough. I AM saying that they can be less frequent with good biofiltration. You also still said again, that waste stays in the filter, but it just doesn't. It breaks down to other things so it is no longer waste, and, most importantly, it is taken up into the structure of plants and/or algae beds - i.e. removed from the system.
By "waste" I am not refereing to poop, pee or rotting food. I am refering to stuff that needs to be taken out of the system for the water quality to be good enough for discus. This is why you still have to clean your filters. If filters did clean things up enough for discus, water changes would not be needed.

[Orange Crush]

but I was not saying frequent water changes are not needed at all. I also never said gravel and plants were enough.
I never said that you said these things. This is why I am frustrated. The people who did say these things have not been countered by anyone but me. Yet, when I say filtration and frequent wc's are needed, and I am trying to explain why, some people who's experience in fish husbandry is the same as mine are arguing that point with me by saying the same things I said and yet they think I said something different. I don't get it. :confused:

[tannin]

By "waste" I am not refereing to poop, pee or rotting food. I am refering to stuff that needs to be taken out of the system for the water quality to be good enough for discus. This is why you still have to clean your filters. If filters did clean things up enough for discus, water changes would not be needed.

OK, but some of that 'stuff' that needs to be taken out, IS being taken out by plants and/or algae (or by other means - like Purigen http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Purigen.html or foam fractionation). It's only the "out of balance" amount that remains to worry the discus. That said, the more you overfeed, the more out of balance it becomes - so, hence, yes, you need also to do water changes.

[Orange Crush]

OK, but some of that 'stuff' that needs to be taken out, IS being taken out by plants and/or algae (or by other means - like Purigen http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Purigen.html or foam fractionation)
A lot of people do not have these things in their tank. When it comes to discus tanks there are more people who keep BB tanks than in other types of fish set ups. Therefore, frequent wc's are needed and I am trying to impress this fact upon those who are learning.
Also, for those who are learning and do have these things they sometimes overestimate what it does for water quality and think they can get away with doing less than they should.
I worry that the newbies are reading the posts on this thread and thinking "oh, hey, I have plants and/or a lot of filters so I don't have to do water changes that much". Because that is what they want to hear after all.
Please, please, pretty please with high fructose corn syrup on top focus on the posts where people have said "filters replace the need for frequent wc's" or "gravel and plants keep the water really good so frequent water changes and filters are not needed" rather than arguing with me who has agreed with you the entire time? We are on the same side. :confused:

[tannin]

Please, please, pretty please with high fructose corn syrup on top focus on the posts where people have said "filters replace the need for frequent wc's" or "gravel and plants keep the water really good so frequent water changes and filters are not needed" rather than arguing with me who has agreed with you the entire time? We are on the same side. :confused:

LOL, hey OK!! :laugh::wasntme::wasntme:

[Bill63SG]

I think we need to go back to the OP's original question.This has gotten to be like a game of telephone were a little has been forgotten with each post and people are acussing other people of saying things they didnt.Myself included.Easily checked by reviewing past posts.Daily waterchanges.Clean your filters.30gal too small in long run.

[LKSDiscus]

It seems the more frequent water changes I do the worst my fish get, And I have taken most of the you all's advise on here and I still end up with trouble, so who knows.

[zchauvin]

It seems the more frequent water changes I do the worst my fish get, And I have taken most of the you all's advise on here and I still end up with trouble, so who knows.

Well yeah, you need to add a dechlorinator haha

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[LKSDiscus]

Well yeah, you need to add a dechlorinator haha

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Well that is done, seachem prime at that, RO water, and using aged water, airated water, using RO right you name it it was done, and doing the types of water changes that are suggested on here has caused more problems then how I was doing it in the first place.

[zchauvin]

Don't know man, Ive never had anything but success with water changes as most anyone. Perhaps something is leaking into your water in the storage container?

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[Wjmulder]

It's as if either no one is reading my posts or I am not writting very well tonight. :(
If you read all of my posts you will see that I mentioned the need for biofiltration many times (BB). I also said that we need filters for biofiltration because it does convert waste into ammonia, then nitrIte, then into harmless nitrAte. Filters, whether HOB, sponge, or canister are where the BB colonize. However, some people are of the mistaken belief that filters are enough to clean the tank when in reality filters are still part of the "system" and that the water runs through it. So the DOCs, waste, etc are now in the filter but that means it is still in the water, sort of speak. You can check this by monitering TDS levels. TDS continues to rise no mater how many filters you have on a tank.
This banter all started because some people seem to think that if you use enough filters you do not have to do as many water changes. My point is that you do need filters for biofiltration (see post 19) but that filters do not prevent a build up of stuff that needs to be removed which is why wc's are so important and filters do not replace wc's.
So weird. The people who I agree with are the one's who seem to think I am contradicting them but we are saying the same thing! I have been posting to inform those who said frequent wc's are not needed if you have enough filtration and those who said you do not need filtration because gravel and plants are enough to make the water clean. Why is no one saying anything about those posts? I am frustrated. Grrrr. Still love you all though. :angel:

Well I'm back and glad to see the great discussion. First of all I didn't nor would I ever say that plants and gravel are enough to make the water clean, but I will say that they help more than most on this forum think. Also would point out that if the "stuff" is "trapped" in the filter, simply removing and cleaning the filter would get rid of it...no water change necessary right? I'm kidding!

Ok here's what I believe, discus demand consistency right? So when all you bare bottom tank people do 90 percent water changes multiple times a day, you must get the replacement water EXACTLY the same as what you removed or else your messing with the stability the discus prefer. I think by having plants and substrate I am providing a biological area of consistency, I also will change no more than 60 percent at a time so that even though I try my best to match water conditions, I have 40 percent of the original water to "buffer" any mistakes I may have made.

One last point, I believe water changes are important but I think I CAN do fewer because of the added bio filtration I have naturally in my tank.....BUT I STILL DO WATER CHANGES!!!......and I love you all..really!

[moon_knight1971]

Bill let us know how your Discus do and grow. Just because most of us abide by proven/tested methods that work for Discus does not mean your way, or any body else's way, won't work. I think the frustration is that most of us have "been there, done that" and want to save those frustrations from those new to Discus. Go to the Beginner's section and you will frequently see malnutritioned and stunted Discus with the root of the problem being water quality.

Joey!

[Wjmulder]

Thanks Joey, so far so good....and I would never pretend to be an expert or contradict someone elses good advice, this thread just touched a nerve with me and I broke my promise to myself by sharing my crazy ideas with everyone. I have learned a ton from everyone here and appreciate a good discussion...and a little fun.

[ktm4us6]

I'm new at this too, have 4 2.5" in a 30g and just vacuuming the bottom morning and night I change at least 30% of there water everyday. They really poop a lot. Good luck

[Niko3434]

Wow okay guys hi! Thanks for all the input!

So when I had the discus, I was doing twice weekly 30% changes. I had two Sponge IVs and one Fluval 405 (yeah I know it's a lot but I did NOT want the discus to die LOL). So anyway the 30 gal currently just has the 405 on it and I was planning on putting in one or two of the Sponges (should I do one or two?) for the discus. I honestly don't know if I'll be able to do daily changes. Every other day is the most that I'd probably be able to do. I just don't know if I actually have to change the water that much, I mean they were perfectly fine with the twice weekly changes (they were not stunted in any way, I assure you). I also asked a family friend who used to keep discus, and he said that twice 30% was fine.

I mean obviously, that was in the 55 gallon, but I think with all the filtration it shouldn't matter that much???

[moon_knight1971]

Thanks Joey, so far so good....and I would never pretend to be an expert or contradict someone elses good advice, this thread just touched a nerve with me and I broke my promise to myself by sharing my crazy ideas with everyone. I have learned a ton from everyone here and appreciate a good discussion...and a little fun.

Hey Einstein did too! ;)

Joey!

[moon_knight1971]

Wow okay guys hi! Thanks for all the input!

So when I had the discus, I was doing twice weekly 30% changes. I had two Sponge IVs and one Fluval 405 (yeah I know it's a lot but I did NOT want the discus to die LOL). So anyway the 30 gal currently just has the 405 on it and I was planning on putting in one or two of the Sponges (should I do one or two?) for the discus. I honestly don't know if I'll be able to do daily changes. Every other day is the most that I'd probably be able to do. I just don't know if I actually have to change the water that much, I mean they were perfectly fine with the twice weekly changes (they were not stunted in any way, I assure you). I also asked a family friend who used to keep discus, and he said that twice 30% was fine.

I mean obviously, that was in the 55 gallon, but I think with all the filtration it shouldn't matter that much???

Based on what you're saying your discus will likely survive but just not live up to their full potential. Filteration helps but good food & frequent water changes are what actually assist in the discus's growth and development.

Joey!

[Niko3434]

Based on what you're saying your discus will likely survive but just not live up to their full potential. Filteration helps but good food & frequent water changes are what actually assist in the discus's growth and development.

Joey!

Okay so I think I'm just gonna go through my summer schedule and if I can do more frequent changes than I'll get the discus; if not I'll just hold out until I can make sure that I'll be able to keep up with them.

Thanks everyone for your help!