Vintage Strain Development

[Second Hand Pat]

One of the sponsors approached me a while back about the possibility of recreating one of the vintage US strains. Apparently the US was known once upon a time for having a palette of it's own strains. Many which retained some of their wild characteristics.

The recent spawning of my wild Tefe's has placed me in a unique situation to try and recreate the vintage RSG which apparently looked like a nicely spotted royal Tefe.

While it has been my goal to breed my wilds. Developing a strain places those goals at a whole new level with a multiple year commitment, dedicated tanks and totally different way of looking at my fish.

[Second Hand Pat]

So for this first year I will be raising the first generation of foundation stock using the two successful spawnings of my wild Tefe's. The first spawn is Batch A, approaching three inches and is four months plus old. The second spawning is Batch B and turned four weeks old today. Both spawns have the same mother but different dads. So here is my "eve" female.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Tefe%20Spawn/P1200044.jpg

and the dad of the Batch A

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Tefe%20Spawn/P1200041.jpg

Together on their first clutch of eggs.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Tefe%20Spawn/IMAG0842.jpg

[Second Hand Pat]

For the second successful spawn the female selected a different male and I call this spawn Batch B.

Female with her new beau.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Tefe%20Spawn/New_Pair-1.jpg

and the new mate.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Tefe%20Spawn/Dad-1.jpg

[nc0gnet0]

Be nice to see a picture of a fish that resembles what your ultimate goal is.

Rick

[schomin]

cool project look forward to seeing the results.

[nevsfish]

hi its great to see that more discus breeders are going along the line of trying to bring back the old colours.far to many discus keepers are not interested in the old type colours and thats a shame.i for one applaude the efforts of people like yourself for not getting sucked into the hype of the what i call the candy coloured discus scene.i love wild type discus and slowly more breeders are thinking the same way.good luck in your future breeding attempts.regards lawrence

[Sune]

Very nice Discus, and a very nice thought/goal! I would love to see the "classics" again in the market, even though i live in Denmark. Mostly (in europe) we see the Red Turk(German) but the many other "old" strains has vanished, and has been replaced by lollipop discus. I really do believe that the strongest discus (minimum flaws, fast growth) is the "Nachtzuchten" (F1, F2, F3) and the non-inbred lines from these. I think you're project is of high appreciation for many Discus lovers as well for other breeders who wants "unspoiled" breeding material. The best of luck to you.

Sune

[Second Hand Pat]

Be nice to see a picture of a fish that resembles what your ultimate goal is.

Rick

Something like this Rick, from a Jim Quarles book...

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/to_this.jpg

[Second Hand Pat]

cool project look forward to seeing the results.

Thanks schomin, keep in mind that is is a multiple year project especially working with wild greens who mature between 18 and 24 months.

[Second Hand Pat]

hi its great to see that more discus breeders are going along the line of trying to bring back the old colours.far to many discus keepers are not interested in the old type colours and thats a shame.i for one applaude the efforts of people like yourself for not getting sucked into the hype of the what i call the candy coloured discus scene.i love wild type discus and slowly more breeders are thinking the same way.good luck in your future breeding attempts.regards lawrence

Hi Lawrence, being a wilds keeper the domestic strains do not really appeal to me. You might appreciate this thread showing some of the classics (link below). Also many discus keepers today have never seen the older classic strains.
Pat

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?93423-World-Wide-Fish-Farm-Blast-from-the-Past&highlight=

[Second Hand Pat]

Very nice Discus, and a very nice thought/goal! I would love to see the "classics" again in the market, even though i live in Denmark. Mostly (in europe) we see the Red Turk(German) but the many other "old" strains has vanished, and has been replaced by lollipop discus. I really do believe that the strongest discus (minimum flaws, fast growth) is the "Nachtzuchten" (F1, F2, F3) and the non-inbred lines from these. I think you're project is of high appreciation for many Discus lovers as well for other breeders who wants "unspoiled" breeding material. The best of luck to you.

Sune

Thanks Sune, appreciate that. What is the "Nachtzuchten"? You have any link you could share?

[schomin]

Thanks schomin, keep in mind that is is a multiple year project especially working with wild greens who mature between 18 and 24 months.

Yeah I figured it would be a while but, it will be worth sticking around to see how it goes.

[Second Hand Pat]

Yeah I figured it would be a while but, it will be worth sticking around to see how it goes.

Totally true since I am already raising the first generation.

[Brokenrack]

Honorable pursuit best of luck!
Scott

[Trevor W]

Honorable pursuit best of luck!
+1

[JenTN]

Pat I saw the RSG pics on facebook...pretty cool :-)

[Second Hand Pat]

Pat I saw the RSG pics on facebook...pretty cool :-)

Jen, these guys :D

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Tefe%20F1%20Timeline/P6090007_s.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Tefe%20F1%20Timeline/P6090023_s.jpg

[Second Hand Pat]

Honorable pursuit best of luck!
Scott


+1

Thanks guys

[JenTN]

Jen, these guys :D

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Tefe%20F1%20Timeline/P6090007_s.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Tefe%20F1%20Timeline/P6090023_s.jpg

Yup!!!

[DerekFF]

That female is a total MILF.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

[Discus-n00b]

Very interesting Pat. I'll be watching this over the years, really hope you get the desired results, those old school fish look great. The classics, my favorite.

[Second Hand Pat]

That female is a total MILF.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

True enough Derek but an excellent parent and a super nice female.

[Second Hand Pat]

Very interesting Pat. I'll be watching this over the years, really hope you get the desired results, those old school fish look great. The classics, my favorite.

Mine too Matt and so far off to a promising start. Two years per generation so could be a long haul. I am hoping to start an unrelated third line next breeding season but more on that later.

[nc0gnet0]

O Pat, have you thought out your next step? What do you plan on using with your f1'2 to produce your F2's?

Rick

[Second Hand Pat]

Well Rick, I am having a little PM discussion with Rod on that very topic and he is suggesting breeding the cousins over the sibling (mainly due to a concern of mine about breeding siblings). I know with the same mother batch A and B are not exactly cousins. But still. Also I have 9 other unrelated wild Tefe so the possibilities are endless.

I am also sure you have an opinion on this and would love to hear it :)

[Keith Perkins]

That female is a total MILF.

You are such a dork Derek, it's so totally DILF.

[DerekFF]

You are such a dork Derek, it's so totally DILF.

:thumbup:

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

[shoveltrash]

That female is a total MILF. I am so clueless, I had to Google "MILF".............!
:shocked: er, had NO IDEA!!! :laugh: :shocked2:



Pat I am so totally impressed - being fairly 'new' to Discus, of course at first my eye was drawn to colorful eye candy. but more & more I have come to appreciate wilds, and the more classic strains. yet another of your threads I will follow with great interest! wishing the best of luck to you :)

[DerekFF]

I am so clueless, I had to Google "MILF".............!
:shocked: er, had NO IDEA!!! :laugh)
Hope there werent kids around!


Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Pat, Great project, great discus to try this with and you wonder why I call you the Aretha Franklin (Queen of Soul for those who don't know the name) of discus, you are the Queen of Discus without a doubt!!!

Keep up the good work and I have some empty tanks now if you need some help raising the juvies.

Awesome work Pat!!!

[Second Hand Pat]

I am so clueless, I had to Google "MILF".............!
:shocked: er, had NO IDEA!!! :laugh: :shocked2:



Pat I am so totally impressed - being fairly 'new' to Discus, of course at first my eye was drawn to colorful eye candy. but more & more I have come to appreciate wilds, and the more classic strains. yet another of your threads I will follow with great interest! wishing the best of luck to you :)

Aw thanks Trish and I had to look it up also :p For me I have always been drawn to the wild look of any creature so wilds appealed naturally to me. When I was a kid I wanted a wolf so bad.

[Second Hand Pat]

Pat, Great project, great discus to try this with and you wonder why I call you the Aretha Franklin (Queen of Soul for those who don't know the name) of discus, you are the Queen of Discus without a doubt!!!

Keep up the good work and I have some empty tanks now if you need some help raising the juvies.

Awesome work Pat!!!

Jeff, will you stop :p and I know you will not. Guess it is good you are not going to Atlanta you would be :embarassed: the heck out of me...seriously I do want to meet you one day and I will remember the empty tank offer.

[ockyra215]

Pat sounds like a very interesting project to try to accomplish I wish you luck and look forward to following your process. There are going to be a lot of ups and downs document it all! And ofcourse we are all gonna want fry lol!

Now on the other hand document it all and publish it! Lots of pictures and information! You could be the next Bernd Degen! Book Deal!!

[Second Hand Pat]

Thank you Dave and as having never done anything like this I expect plenty of ups and downs. Most likely more downs while getting started. lol.

It is sort of funny you mention a book. A fellow co-worker who has taken an interest in the fish also mentioned doing one or more ebooks on the events in the "Wild Tefe Spawn" thread since I have plenty of pics and video clips documenting the events. Apparently you can self-publish with Apple for the ipad etc market. Might be a cool way for the hobby to pay for itself.

[Brent1972]

Any more spots appearing on your fry pat ?

[Second Hand Pat]

Any more spots appearing on your fry pat ?

Brent, those pictures above are from the last week so have not really checked since. lol

[CliffsDiscus]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?93423-World-Wide-Fish-Farm-Blast-from-the-Past&highlight=[/QUOTE]

All of these Discus picture were from Sunny Lo, he had a hatchery on the 7th floor in Hong Kong. I still see some of the old Discus still keeper these fish.

Cliff

[Second Hand Pat]

Cliff, I have seen that posted in Kraig's thread. Love those poster pictures. So some of these fish still exist? Any in the US?

[nc0gnet0]

Well Rick, I am having a little PM discussion with Rod on that very topic and he is suggesting breeding the cousins over the sibling (mainly due to a concern of mine about breeding siblings). I know with the same mother batch A and B are not exactly cousins. But still. Also I have 9 other unrelated wild Tefe so the possibilities are endless.

I am also sure you have an opinion on this and would love to hear it

Well Rod certainly would be the one to ask! At least from the pictures, your Tefes apear to be a bit green/blue (could be the camera) as opposed to the more cobalt blue tint to the picture of the discus you are trying to achieve. As to what I what I might suggest depends on what you are willing to work with to achieve your objective. If your willing to throw a domestic in the mix I would go with crossing your F1's with an ARSG or RSG (don't see many of them around). Based on the few crosses I ahve done with an ARSG, Pattern wise it will get your to were you want pretty quick, then have to work on color.

Rick

[Moon]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?93423-World-Wide-Fish-Farm-Blast-from-the-Past&highlight=

All of these Discus picture were from Sunny Lo, he had a hatchery on the 7th floor in Hong Kong. I still see some of the old Discus still keeper these fish.

Is Sunny still working with discus. Haven't heard anything about him for years.

Cliff[/QUOTE]

[DiscusDrew]

This is an incredible idea Pat, I'm happy to hear wild breeders moving in that direction as I too have slowly been gravitating away from the highly inbred domestics (not discrediting their beauty) and moving my eyes towards wilds and the F1's and such that come off of these truly beautiful and unique fish. It would be incredible to see more fish on the market that can still legitimately hold the aequifasciata part of their original name ;)

[Kingdom Come Discus]

Pat this will be a hard road. Watanabe is doing this right now. His Red Turquoise have a strong wild background. He told me he breeds a wild into the strain on a regular basis. They are IMO the nicest Red Turqs I have seen. Yes I like them better than the Piwowarski.

[Second Hand Pat]

Well Rod certainly would be the one to ask! At least from the pictures, your Tefes apear to be a bit green/blue (could be the camera) as opposed to the more cobalt blue tint to the picture of the discus you are trying to achieve. As to what I what I might suggest depends on what you are willing to work with to achieve your objective. If your willing to throw a domestic in the mix I would go with crossing your F1's with an ARSG or RSG (don't see many of them around). Based on the few crosses I ahve done with an ARSG, Pattern wise it will get your to were you want pretty quick, then have to work on color.

Rick

Hi Rick, I do not mind if the Tefe's maintain their present color. The final result does not need to be exactly like the picture posted and my current goal is to keep the breeding stock all wild or wild descendants. I may adjust my goals over time based on what the fish present so crossing in a domestic is possible but not my first choice ATM. Also based on what I am seeing in some of the F1s they may be developing the pattern needed for the F2 generation. I do wish to keep the exchange of ideas going too. :D

[Second Hand Pat]

This is an incredible idea Pat, I'm happy to hear wild breeders moving in that direction as I too have slowly been gravitating away from the highly inbred domestics (not discrediting their beauty) and moving my eyes towards wilds and the F1's and such that come off of these truly beautiful and unique fish. It would be incredible to see more fish on the market that can still legitimately hold the aequifasciata part of their original name ;)

Thank you Drew, I am not sure I would call myself a wild breeder but that sounds pretty cool. :) People over time seem to move to wilds or keeping one stain over time.

[nc0gnet0]

Pat this will be a hard road. Watanabe is doing this right now. His Red Turquoise have a strong wild background. He told me he breeds a wild into the strain on a regular basis. They are IMO the nicest Red Turqs I have seen. Yes I like them better than the Piwowarski.

Pat-Definitely an admirable project but there are a few things to consider. Even if you start with wild stock, if you breed the siblings through several generations, wouldn't the outcome still be a domestic discus? Just something to consider before totally dismissing the option of using a domestic here and there in your project. I like Kraigs example of breeding back to the wild strain every few generations. Using a specific domestic here and there will help you pinpoint the attributes you wish to incorporate into the line more easily.

One thing I know, your going to find yourself gobbling up a lot of tank space in a hurry ;). The thing about these brown strains, and the spotted ones specifically, is they take a long time to develope thier final appearance. This means growing out a good portion of your spawns to near maturity to make sure you don't throw the baby out with the bath water so to speak.

Rick

[Second Hand Pat]

Pat this will be a hard road. Watanabe is doing this right now. His Red Turquoise have a strong wild background. He told me he breeds a wild into the strain on a regular basis. They are IMO the nicest Red Turqs I have seen. Yes I like them better than the Piwowarski.

Yea I know Kraig and many years of commitment and time. I loved the RT you bought in from Watanabe and I actually bought tickets to that raffle. Rod did suggest breeding a wild into every third generation.

[Second Hand Pat]

.

Pat-Definitaly an admirable project but there are a few things to consider. Even if you start with wild stock, if you breed the siblings through several generations, wouldn't the outcome still be a domestic discus? Just something to consider before totally dismissing the option of using a domestic here and there in your project. I like Kraigs example of breeding back to the wild strain every few generations. Using a specific domestic here and there will help you pinpoint the attributes you wish to incorporate into the line more easily.

One thinig I know, your going to find yourself gobbling up a lot of tank space in a hurry ;). One thing about these brown strains, and the spotted ones specifically, is they take a long time to develope thier final appearance. This means growing out a good portion of your spawns to near maturity to make sure you don't throw the baby out with the bath water so to speak.

Rick

Rick, you are right I will end with a domestic and I am not throwing away the idea of inclusion of adding a domestic in the future. I just want to see what the F1's will offer to work with first before throwing other genetics in the pot. Rod suggested breeding a wild into the mix every third generation so that follows along with what Watanabe is doing.

Rod also suggested growing out at least 25 out of each spawn to select the breeders for the next generation and the time between wiggler to breeder is 18 to 24 months so two years per generation. Nandi suggested I would need about 2000 gallons of tank space for this project so have been moving stuff out of the "fishroom" to make more room for tanks.

[boscobear]

Pat, Thanks for posting all of your story. It has been such a great read for my wife and I. Interesting it is exploring the cycle of life for these discus fish. I have been wondering that it must be very important to add in the essence of life, Sun light. There must be some added spirit given that the Sun brings life to all creatures. Our aquarium receives the early morning rising Sun, and the discus we have enjoy this , well they seem to, lol in my opinion. Even dogs, and cats receive vitamin C from the rays of the Sun. I figure many breeders have fish that never see the light of day, and I am not so sure artificial light gives the water all of the same benefits as natural Sun light.
Ron & Doris

[Rummy]

Pat, I congratulate you on your efforts. This will be a wonderful project. It would be nice to have more of the "wild looking" fish available. I wish you the best of luck.

[Second Hand Pat]

Pat, Thanks for posting all of your story. It has been such a great read for my wife and I. Interesting it is exploring the cycle of life for these discus fish. I have been wondering that it must be very important to add in the essence of life, Sun light. There must be some added spirit given that the Sun brings life to all creatures. Our aquarium receives the early morning rising Sun, and the discus we have enjoy this , well they seem to, lol in my opinion. Even dogs, and cats receive vitamin C from the rays of the Sun. I figure many breeders have fish that never see the light of day, and I am not so sure artificial light gives the water all of the same benefits as natural Sun light.
Ron & Doris

Thanks Ron and Doris, Nandi mentioned that sunlight helps with color development in the juvies and I would not doubt that sunlight promotes other good things in fish as will as other living beings including us. All my tanks get a little natural sunlight except my growout tank :( but with the outside pool that will be remedied :)
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

Pat, I congratulate you on your efforts. This will be a wonderful project. It would be nice to have more of the "wild looking" fish available. I wish you the best of luck.

Thanks Anik, I suspect it will be a ton of fun as well as a lot of work. The juvies are not growing fast enough :p

[CliffsDiscus]

[QUOTE=Second Hand Pat;902514]Cliff, I have seen that posted in Kraig's thread. Love those poster pictures. So some of these fish still exist? Any in the US?[/
QUOTE]

Hi Pat,
Some of these fish are still around all of them are owned by preinternet hobbyist, many are already crossed with other types of Discus.

Cliff

[CliffsDiscus]

All of these Discus picture were from Sunny Lo, he had a hatchery on the 7th floor in Hong Kong. I still see some of the old Discus still keeper these fish.

Is Sunny still working with discus. Haven't heard anything about him for years.


Cliff[/QUOTE]

I have not heard any updated news about Sunny since 1995, I did received a copy of the Japan's Discus Year Book 1995 published by Minoru Matsuzaka with
a big write up from Sunny, also some of the stores were also advertising some of Sunny's Discus.

Cliff

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Pat,
Some of these fish are still around all of them are owned by preinternet hobbyist, many are already crossed with other types of Discus.

Cliff

Hi Cliff,

I guess there is no way those fish will ever be seen on the net.

Pat

[discuspaul]

Pat, this is the first time I get to read through this thread.
What an absolulety fantastic, and unbelievably laudible endeavor this is !!!

I can picture the ever enlarging fish room, the number of tanks, the dedication & time-consuming effort going into making it work over time, the spawn disappointments, the culling - you name it - but if anyone can do it, I believe you're the one to give it a real supreme effort, and come up with some very surprisingly pleasant and very honorable results.
My God, I do wish you the best of success - hopefully in time you can sit up there with the pioneers of wild discus reproduction, and be extremely satisfied with what you have accomplished.
This post may seem a bit 'soppy', but I mean it from the bottom of my heart.
I know you'll give this your best shot, and in the end, it's very likely Pat, that many people will be saying to you, how the hell did you do produce those beautiful fish ? !!!!
Wish I had the guts to try something like this ! But it's a little late in the game for me.

[trusty]

The pictures on the Jim Quarles book are very nice I love the classic strains cant wait to see what you come up with pat my wilds are so happy and eat from my hand I think i have 4 discus paring off I hope but they are in my show tank and I don't want to move them they settled in really nicely.

[Second Hand Pat]

Pat, this is the first time I get to read through this thread.
What an absolulety fantastic, and unbelievably laudible endeavor this is !!!

I can picture the ever enlarging fish room, the number of tanks, the dedication & time-consuming effort going into making it work over time, the spawn disappointments, the culling - you name it - but if anyone can do it, I believe you're the one to give it a real supreme effort, and come up with some very surprisingly pleasant and very honorable results.
My God, I do wish you the best of success - hopefully in time you can sit up there with the pioneers of wild discus reproduction, and be extremely satisfied with what you have accomplished.
This post may seem a bit 'soppy', but I mean it from the bottom of my heart.
I know you'll give this your best shot, and in the end, it's very likely Pat, that many people will be saying to you, how the hell did you do produce those beautiful fish ? !!!!
Wish I had the guts to try something like this ! But it's a little late in the game for me.

Wow and thank you Paul, I will be quite happy if I can just raise some discus up nicely. So baby steps starting out and will see what the future will bring. Paul, on the late in the game. I am only a little younger than you. ;)

[Second Hand Pat]

The pictures on the Jim Quarles book are very nice I love the classic strains cant wait to see what you come up with pat my wilds are so happy and eat from my hand I think i have 4 discus paring off I hope but they are in my show tank and I don't want to move them they settled in really nicely.

Four pairing off is most excellent, are they wilds trusty?

[plecocicho]

Pat, look for all possible articles /books about Schmidt Foecke breeding and strain development, since he and you both started from wild fish.

[Sune]

Hi.

The Nachtzuchten is a german word for domestics, "NZ". And then there are the WFNZ, Wild Fänge Nacht Zuchten, which means that the fish is max F3 from wilds. Either two wilds or a wild and a f1, f2 or f3 from wild batch. It is a "standard" used by way to few discus resellers, breeders etc. in EU. I would very much like that the fish i buy had a pedigree of some kind, because i have grown tired of spending good money on not so good fish, and therefor i like the terms used to class discus, by origin. For an example, Diskus Markt in Germany has, from time to time, discus which is classed as WFNZ.

http://www.diskus-markt.de/shop/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_37&products_id=1333

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks plecocicho, I will keep my eyes open. I did bring one Schmidt Foecke books from the NADA 2012 show but need to check the content.

Thanks Sune, I was planning on carefully tracking both line (A, B etc ) and F1, F1 etc. I have no idea if there is such a classification system here in the US.

[Second Hand Pat]

Promising results in Batch A (Line 1)...

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Tefe%20F1%20Timeline/P1010063.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Tefe%20F1%20Timeline/P1010061.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Tefe%20F1%20Timeline/P1010060.jpg

[trusty]

Of course pat you know it Wilds they are from wantabe and the first shipment from mark. I got 6 in total...

[Second Hand Pat]

Of course pat you know it Wilds they are from wantabe and the first shipment from mark. I got 6 in total...

Trusty, you lost me :)

[Moon]

I was talking to Dieter during NADA and he mentioned that he still has the original Schmidt Focke line and maintains them in his fish room. He does not ship but sells locally. So if anyone is planning a trip to Germany there is an opportunity to obtain some great pedigree discus.

[Skip]

I was talking to Dieter during NADA and he mentioned that he still has the original Schmidt Focke line and maintains them in his fish room. He does not ship but sells locally. So if anyone is planning a trip to Germany there is an opportunity to obtain some great pedigree discus.

thats a heck of a shipping charge.. ROUND TRIP TICKET to Europe.. for old line discus.. priceless!!

[gwrace]

hi its great to see that more discus breeders are going along the line of trying to bring back the old colours.far to many discus keepers are not interested in the old type colours and thats a shame.i for one applaude the efforts of people like yourself for not getting sucked into the hype of the what i call the candy coloured discus scene.i love wild type discus and slowly more breeders are thinking the same way.good luck in your future breeding attempts.regards lawrence

It's a personal point of view but I own and enjoy both the "candy colors" and wilds. I've had people ask me if the candy colors in my show tanks are salt water fish because they are so pretty. It's a little like having a reef aquarium without all the headaches of a reef aquarium. Where would we be without all the genetic mutations we enjoy in every other pet we keep. It would be pretty boring if every dog looked like a wolf....:)

[zimmjeff]

hmmmmm I have a friend in Italy right now wonder how close she is?

[Moon]

I have a pair of Wattley's original solid turq strain that I got from Dale Jordan. Dale got them from Japan. Not quite sure who he got them from. They are were little stunted when I got them. So I won't post any pics of them. I am working with them to get get some fry and grow them out.

[nc0gnet0]

Hey Pat,

Here is something I have been playing with, an F2 from one of my cross's.

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/j3.jpg

[Second Hand Pat]

Appears to be from wild green stock Rick, Is it? You have some nice spotting going on. I would love to see a better picture. :)
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

Since I have not touched this thread in a while an update is in order. A year ago this month I started with this.

Mom

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Tefe%20Spawn/P1200044.jpg

Dad

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Tefe%20Spawn/P1200041.jpg

and today I have two of these which are a year old this month.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Tefe%20F1%20Timeline/DSC_1410_zpsf9cb2ba1.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Tefe%20F1%20Timeline/DSC_1414_zps15f207d3.jpg

I also have two wild Tefe RSGs up and coming adults which will comprise the F2 generation.

[Trier20]

I didn't know you had this mission going on! Sounds like alot of fun! Good luck Pat. You're definitely patient enough to do this!

[Second Hand Pat]

I have also been asked if I should add domestics to this mix. Since this is the laboratory I would be most interested on the pros and cons of such an addition.

Some thoughts...

Possible pros
1. Quicker process to an end result.
2. Quicker maturity of the fish from fry to breeding age.

Possible cons
1. A muddy genetic pool.

[Second Hand Pat]

I didn't know you had this mission going on! Sounds like alot of fun! Good luck Pat. You're definitely patient enough to do this!

Lets hope I live long enough Brandon. This could easily be a 20 year mission.

[Trier20]

If adding a domestic in I'm assuming you would be using a domestic "wild". What strain would you use?

[Second Hand Pat]

If adding a domestic in I'm assuming you would be using a domestic "wild". What strain would you use?

No clue Brandon but most like something with spots BUT my original goal with this is to do this with all wild foundation stock. I figured it is worth at least talking about and I tend to be open to new ideas.

[Trier20]

No clue Brandon but most like something with spots BUT my original goal with this is to do this with all wild foundation stock. I figured it is worth at least talking about and I tend to be open to new ideas.

So possibly a domestic tefe? With wild stock you're probably looking at a good 8yrs?

[nc0gnet0]

Possible cons
1. A muddy genetic pool.

I am not sure I can agree with your assesment here. A couple of points to consider:

1) Even if you stick with wild stock to begin with, after several generations of gene manipulation to get your desired final result, this fish will be every bit as domestic as one you would buy from Kenny, Mike, or Hans. Now, I can see avoiding the genetic mutations to achieve your desired end result (ie no pb, bd, albino, etc genetics). The genetics of the domestics still were derived from wilds, only certain specific traits have been isolated.

2) If you want quicker results you will need to do some distributed breeding (Ie several individuals working towards the same goal). It would also act as a insurance buffer should disaster strike (heater failure, disease, etc). Keeping all your stock in one place carries a lot of risks.

[Second Hand Pat]

Not intended to be an assessment Rick more like talking points to generate conversation. I am fully aware these will become domestics over time.

I am working on the distributed breeding aspect.

[Second Hand Pat]

So possibly a domestic tefe? With wild stock you're probably looking at a good 8yrs?

More like 20.

[Trier20]

More like 20.

Wowsers! Being a tough judge on what moves on is going to be the hardest part. Though it may be easier than it sounds. Some may have the dots you're lookin for but lacking striations and visa versa.

[Second Hand Pat]

Brandon, I look at it being a goal and fully plan on enjoying the journey :)

[Second Hand Pat]

I am not worried about what moves. If I and some friends end with a tank of nice spotted goal meet.

[kaceyo]

Hey Pat,
I would only add domestic spotted lines to your wilds if you still had enough room to keep your wild based line seperate. Otherwise I'd keep it wild based, adding fresh wild genes to the line occasionaly.
They look great so far.

Kacey

[Trier20]

Brandon, I look at it being a goal and fully plan on enjoying the journey :)

True I would absolutely love to do something like this!

[Second Hand Pat]

Hey Pat,
I would only add domestic spotted lines to your wilds if you still had enough room to keep your wild based line seperate. Otherwise I'd keep it wild based, adding fresh wild genes to the line occasionaly.
They look great so far.

Kacey

Hi Kacey, ATM I do not have the room to maintain two lines, wish I had. Thanks for the recommendation and Rod suggested as you have to reintroduce a wild fish every other generation.

[Second Hand Pat]

I wish to restate here that one of my goals here is to recreate one of the vintage US strains. Apparently the US was known once upon a time for having a palette of it's own strains. Many which retained some of their wild characteristics.

[nc0gnet0]

Just so I am clear on this, define "wild Charasteristic".

Is part of your quest to follow in the foot steps of early American discus pioneers, developing this strain using nothing but what they themselves had to work with? Kind of like retracing Lewis and Clark's footsteps with nothing but the same tools they had at the time? Not trying to be sarcastic (please don't take it that way), thats actually a fun project in and of itself.

[Keith Perkins]

So does that mean Rick when you're making food you have to use a Wattley type vitamin regiment and not multi-vitamins because that was all that was recommended back then? You could take this a long long way.

[Second Hand Pat]

Yes Rick, your post from yesterday had me thinking and yes, you pretty much nailed it on the head. I also reviewed the first post on this thread (and remember this thread is already six months old) and I stated that in the first post.


One of the sponsors approached me a while back about the possibility of recreating one of the vintage US strains. Apparently the US was known once upon a time for having a palette of it's own strains. Many which retained some of their wild characteristics.

The recent spawning of my wild Tefe's has placed me in a unique situation to try and recreate the vintage RSG which apparently looked like a nicely spotted royal Tefe.

While it has been my goal to breed my wilds. Developing a strain places those goals at a whole new level with a multiple year commitment, dedicated tanks and totally different way of looking at my fish.

[nc0gnet0]

Yes Rick, your post from yesterday had me thinking and yes, you pretty much nailed it on the head.

Ok then that makes me a little less confused. I am having a hard time putting into words what I am trying to ask/get across here, and I don't mean to sound condescending or sarcastic, I actually like the project as a whole.

Maybe I am reading things wrong, but there seems to be a feeling that wilds somehow differ from domestics genetically, and that is really not the case(barring the mutations). These wild "charasteristics" are more a product of environment, not of genetics, and that is the point I was trying to get across. Much like that of a brown city squirrel, vs a brown country squirrel if you will, genetically identical, but have been subjected to a different environment and thus behave much differently over time and generations.

To further explain look at this:

A...................B...................C

(A) represents your wilds, (B) can represent your ultimate goal, while (C) represents a current domestic discus we have today. For all intensive purposes, B (your goal) was one of the first domestics developed. Now you can start at (A) and work forwards towards achieving (B) (as was first done) or you could also start at (C) and work backwards to achieve (B). For sake of argument lets say we do both and achieve identical (B's). Chances are both fish are going to be nearly identical genetically, as to how much of the "wild charasteristics" are left would more be a product of environmental concerns then that of genetics. At least that is my understanding, I would be curious to see Rod's opionion on this.

Rick

[Second Hand Pat]

I do get what you are saying Rick. When I mentioned "muddy genetics" with domestics it was inline with many domestics do not breed true and we as consumers do not always know what goes into the genetics of a particular domestic strain. It is not my intent to knock domestics only that starting at A I feel the genetic base is a bit more stable. Since I am already a wilds keeper for me it is more fun to start at A since I already have the stock and seem to have a knack for breeding the silly things.

Rick, did you know that Rod is/was also breeding wild greens. Believe he is in the 4th generation and to my knowledge has not breed any domestics into his line. He also mentioned that the fish themselves change over the generations and become more creamy. Guess I should ask for pictures.

[nc0gnet0]

I just what you are saying Rick.

? :)



When I mentioned "muddy genetics" with domestics it was inline with many domestics do not breed true and we as cosumers do not always know what goes into the genetics of a particular domestic strain.

Yes and no, depends on the strain, but I understand what your saying. It is this "unstable" quality that makes it easier to seperate a charasteristic IMO however.


It is not my intent to knock domestics only that starting at A I feel the genetic base is a bit more stable.

I did not take it that way at all. You know what would be an interesting experiment ( I am sure it has been done)? Is to take a clutch of eggs from a wild pair and have them raised by a pair of domestics and see if they behaved more like domestics than wilds when they achieved maturity.

It would be equally fascinating to have two groups of people each working towards your objective, but starting at different ends of the spectrum and compare results.

Rick

[Trier20]

? :)




Yes and no, depends on the strain, but I understand what your saying. It is this "unstable" quality that makes it easier to seperate a charasteristic IMO however.



I did not take it that way at all. You know what would be an interesting experiment ( I am sure it has been done)? Is to take a clutch of eggs from a wild pair and have them raised by a pair of domestics and see if they behaved more like domestics than wilds when they achieved maturity.

It would be equally fascinating to have two groups of people each working towards your objective, but starting at different ends of the spectrum and compare results.

Rick

So are you talking about starting with two domestic greens of one wild and one domestic?

[Second Hand Pat]

I do get what you are saying Rick.

Better lol


I did not take it that way at all. You know what would be an interesting experiment ( I am sure it has been done)? Is to take a clutch of eggs from a wild pair and have them raised by a pair of domestics and see if they behaved more like domestics than wilds when they achieved maturity.

Rick, the biggest difference between wilds and domestics from what I can tell is getting the wild female to spawn. Wild males are well, males :) Also I am not sure if there are any real "behavioral" differences. A better comparison is domestics to TR Wild F1s IMO.


I did not take it that way at all. You know what would be an interesting experiment ( I am sure it has been done)? Is to take a clutch of eggs from a wild pair and have them raised by a pair of domestics and see if they behaved more like domestics than wilds when they achieved maturity.

Now doing this would make this a true experiment (mostly, a lot of variables to make it repeatable.) I would be most curious as to the domestics selected? Would also need to agree on a definition of "wild characteristics" or final look if you will.