The New "Batch B"

[Second Hand Pat]

So I have had two successful spawns, well, maybe one if I decide to cull the current batch B fry. So caught the parents of the current batch B spawning this morning. Huge batch of eggs. I will post pictures later. I hope to have learned enough from the two prior batches to aim for a huge hatch with perfect fry (no short gill plates). If I am successful with this I will most likely cull the current batch B (various valid reasons for this) and enter this spawn in the contest.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkl9rvPd6ZU&list=UUaeXQ_wwjMmbU52-KYBqNJg&index=1&feature=plcp

[DiscusDrew]

What was giving you issues with short gill plates? Do you have anything suspected?

[DiscusDrew]

And yes I know it happens, but you made it sound like it was a problem with a lot of them?

[Second Hand Pat]

What was giving you issues with short gill plates? Do you have anything suspected?

Two possibilies and the answer dependents on whom you ask lol. One is low TDS during the early days or lack of minerals in the water. Another suspicion is low quality of eggs (last batch of eggs after a long spawning run and egg count was low for this female).

[Second Hand Pat]

And yes I know it happens, but you made it sound like it was a problem with a lot of them?

Actually it was about six or so with the short gill plates out of 22.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hard to see the eggs. They blend right into the wood.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Tefe%20Spawn/P1010105-Copy.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Tefe%20Spawn/P1010105.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Tefe%20Spawn/P1010104-1.jpg

[DiscusDrew]

Well the mineral issue seems like it would be problematic to me, side you raise your fry in a big tank if I remember correctly. Which means they are in with the other wilds that love the soft water. Making it hard to specifically alter their water conditions, that us definitely a small spawn too though. Mine never keep any that small, maybe there is a reason for that instinct. At least you know your possible causes of problems and can adjust accordingly. I'm sure these next guys will be beautiful

[Keith Perkins]

I'll say they blend in, but that's probably not an accident.

[Second Hand Pat]

Well the mineral issue seems like it would be problematic to me, side you raise your fry in a big tank if I remember correctly. Which means they are in with the other wilds that love the soft water. Making it hard to specifically alter their water conditions, that us definitely a small spawn too though. Mine never keep any that small, maybe there is a reason for that instinct. At least you know your possible causes of problems and can adjust accordingly. I'm sure these next guys will be beautiful

Drew, I will bump up the TDS only temporary. These wilds were raised in my full tap water before I starting using RO and I will make the adjustment slowly. The first batch of F1 are perfect so I have some guidelines for my water parameters.

[Second Hand Pat]

I'll say they blend in, but that's probably not an accident.

I suspect not an accident too.

[JenTN]

Good luck Pat!!!!

[Second Hand Pat]

Good luck Pat!!!!

Thanks Jen, any more Cobalt fry in your future?

[JenTN]

Thanks Jen, any more Cobalt fry in your future?

They've been flirting for a couple weeks so I hope so!!

[Second Hand Pat]

They've been flirting for a couple weeks so I hope so!!

Fingers crossed for you.

[Harry Marsh]

Two possibilies and the answer dependents on whom you ask lol. One is low TDS during the early days or lack of minerals in the water. Another suspicion is low quality of eggs (last batch of eggs after a long spawning run and egg count was low for this female).

Just my opinion....

But isn't the third (And most likely) option that the short fill plates are genetic?
No disrespect to you or yours: but I think I have short gill plates in many of mine and think tds is too simple of an answer

It might be ridiculously valuable to the hobby if we were able to diagnose this...

If you were able, I would like to see you enter two batches into the contest
One batch with low tds throughout life
Other batch with mineral supplements from an early age

[Second Hand Pat]

Just my opinion....

But isn't the third (And most likely) option that the short fill plates are genetic?
No disrespect to you or yours: but I think I have short gill plates in many of mine and think tds is too simple of an answer

It might be ridiculously valuable to the hobby if we were able to diagnose this...

If you were able, I would like to see you enter two batches into the contest
One batch with low tds throughout life
Other batch with mineral supplements from an early age

Harry, I could see short gill plates being a genetic issue with domestics. But these are wild fish, so I doubt it is a genetic issue.

BUT lets see if I am successful with this current spawn and if any short gill plates show up. The TDS in the tank is 110 and the GH is most likely about 6 dGH (will measure tomorrow). My source water comes from a limestone layer in the Florida aquifer so should be plenty of calcium.

What would be the purpose of raising a batch with low TDS throughout life?

[Harry Marsh]

Why do the wilds not have gill plate issues? In fact, wouldn't it be easier to hypothesize that wilds have a bigger problem that domestics?
This is just a cosmetic characteristic, no? With no relation to Darwinism? It seems to make more sense that domestics breed this unwanted characteristic out, while wilds wouldn't care (and have no control)
That argument makes sense to me. After all, wilds are far from what we consider the perfect discus (often 'poor' shapes, etc etc)


The purpose, I was thinking...of low TDS throughout life would be to emulate the amazon (low TDS). Take a look at the results (gill plates)
And compare to a batch from the same parents with fry raised in high TDS water. If you are correct, the second batch will have better gill plates

If it were genetics, the TDS would have no effect on gill plate growth
In all of the reading I've done, I've seen no direct evidence to show that a higher TDS will result in fewer gill plate abnomalies. Everyone on here seems to think so, but noone has conducted the test controlling all other variables (same parents, different fry with different water)
In fact, most of the evidence (that I read) seems to show that TDS will have no effect and we're wasting our breath/time with minerals in the water (beyond a pure r/o mix and some base level)

Again, I mention not to argue or attack. My fish have a much more severe gill plate problem than yours, which is why I have interest. I have spoken to quite a few Piwowarski breeders who report similar short gill plates: genetics rather than TDS or how the fry are raised.
If we were to prove that (for example) a 300 TDS is necessary for desired gill plate growth, I think that would have substantial benefit to the hobby. Alternatively, I suppose we could prove that TDS is a worthless concern and a lot of people go through unnecessary steps (adding minerals, etc)

Did that make sense?

I suppose I could try to get a 'batch b' and try this little experiment, but my genetics variable will always be constant

MY TDS on this batch is in the 60 or 70 range.

[Second Hand Pat]

Why do the wilds not have gill plate issues? In fact, wouldn't it be easier to hypothesize that wilds have a bigger problem that domestics?

I think it would depend on what actually causes short gill plates, be it genetic, water parameters or something else. I only suggested that wilds would have less issues with short gill plates if the cause was genetic.


This is just a cosmetic characteristic, no? With no relation to Darwinism? It seems to make more sense that domestics breed this unwanted characteristic out, while wilds wouldn't care (and have no control)

Cosmetic characteristic, yes for people but for wilds depends on if short gill plates allow the gills to be more vulnerable, perhaps to injury the gills for example. Wilds have the best control there is which is totally related to Darwinism called survival of the fittest.


That argument makes sense to me. After all, wilds are far from what we consider the perfect discus (often 'poor' shapes, etc etc)

The perfect discus is strictly man made. The wild discus shapes are made by nature to suit the environment the wilds live in.


The purpose, I was thinking...of low TDS throughout life would be to emulate the amazon (low TDS). Take a look at the results (gill plates)

Many of the measurements made in the amazon were taken during the dry season. Discus breed during the wet season and with the influx of all that water, additional foods and whatever else is flowing into the river system from the rains I can see both the TDS and PH being higher that during the dry season.


And compare to a batch from the same parents with fry raised in high TDS water. If you are correct, the second batch will have better gill plates

If it were genetics, the TDS would have no effect on gill plate growth
In all of the reading I've done, I've seen no direct evidence to show that a higher TDS will result in fewer gill plate abnomalies. Everyone on here seems to think so, but noone has conducted the test controlling all other variables (same parents, different fry with different water)
In fact, most of the evidence (that I read) seems to show that TDS will have no effect and we're wasting our breath/time with minerals in the water (beyond a pure r/o mix and some base level)

I am doing that now Harry with the eggs laid yesterday, same parents and the TDS is 110 vs 40 as with the first batch.


Again, I mention not to argue or attack. My fish have a much more severe gill plate problem than yours, which is why I have interest. I have spoken to quite a few Piwowarski breeders who report similar short gill plates: genetics rather than TDS or how the fry are raised.
If we were to prove that (for example) a 300 TDS is necessary for desired gill plate growth, I think that would have substantial benefit to the hobby. Alternatively, I suppose we could prove that TDS is a worthless concern and a lot of people go through unnecessary steps (adding minerals, etc)

Did that make sense?

I suppose I could try to get a 'batch b' and try this little experiment, but my genetics variable will always be constant

MY TDS on this batch is in the 60 or 70 range.

I think that would be a very worth while effort.

[Second Hand Pat]

My procrastination got the better of me. I was going to add the divider to section off the pair from the other tefes, I shined a light on the eggs and maybe there are 20/30 left. I do believe the eggs were pillaged by the third virgin male. I have noticed him hanging out down along the bottom of the tank sort of close to the spawn site. Now I know why. :mad:

[Keith Perkins]

Dang, that takes you snooze you lose to a whole new level.

[Second Hand Pat]

Dang, that takes you snooze you lose to a whole new level.

Definitely lol

[DiscusDrew]

Don't feel bad Pat, I snoozed and lost last night too haha. Huge batch if probably 150-200 eggs from my carnation/ velvet red pair... The two white butterfly in the tank... Didn't eat this morning... Hmmm, already full? Divider should have been placed, now I doubt they will keep the few eggs that remain :( They aren't i'm a breeder tank though so obviously I was asking for it haha. Hopefully you get another batch soon my friend.

[Second Hand Pat]

Don't feel bad Pat, I snoozed and lost last night too haha. Huge batch if probably 150-200 eggs from my carnation/ velvet red pair... The two white butterfly in the tank... Didn't eat this morning... Hmmm, already full? Divider should have been placed, now I doubt they will keep the few eggs that remain :( They aren't i'm a breeder tank though so obviously I was asking for it haha. Hopefully you get another batch soon my friend.

Oh man that sucks Drew :( ...as for me she lays every seven days. :D

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Now this is a great topic of discussion. I must say Pat, that while I think TDS can be a slight issue for domestics as you and I discussed before regarding the juvies needing higher TDS (150 to 200). After lowering mine down to about 75 for the breeders, I have yet to see a better egg count than I did when all tanks had the same TDS of 150.

is the low TDS an issue for development? I am thinking along the same side as Harry on this.

Either way, good luck with your fry Pat!!!!

Jeff

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Jeff, I believe the lower TDS has more to do with a greater hatch rate vs the egg count. I understand many domestic breeders will raise the TDS once the eggs hatch. Is a higher TDS needed for development? many seem to think so. I think Harry and I both intend to raise the TDS with the young fry to see if there is a positive outcome on fry development.