Red Cover / Virgin Red Cross Parents and Fry

[Keith Perkins]

Parents - Originally from Kenny

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x418/CozyKeith/100_3609.jpg

Fry 1 - no surprise here

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x418/CozyKeith/100_3617.jpg

But what do we have here?

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x418/CozyKeith/100_3611.jpg

Just 16 fry, but some nice fish among them.

[TNT77]

San Merah?

[Keith Perkins]

Sent a note to Rod and Rick, curious what they think. I can tell you I am going to grow some of these solid ones out. I'll have to figure out how to move fish about. I also have about a dozen and a half RTs from my gorgeous F1 Perkins turquoise line :) that are 3 weeks older, and maybe 70 or so RT babies about 2 weeks old. Going to be listing them soon. Just worked out a deal today with the pharmacist at my church to be able to bring bags by to put air in them so that should be the last thing I need to ship too. :D

[nc0gnet0]

Keith,

Is there a chance you can get some better pictures? Kinda blurry and I am having a hard time counting bars? Describe in detail the difference between the two batches of fry.

Rick

[Skip]

Shipping say what

[Keith Perkins]

It's only one batch of fry Rick, two varieties in one. I'll try cleaning the glass and shooting some more pictures.

Yes Skip, if someone really wants them from afar. The RTs are in my Firecracker 4th of July thread, I need to get some new pictures up.

Actually there's some nice pictures of them in the What's going on in the fishcave thread. Fourth picture on.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?97513-Goings-on-in-the-FishCave

[nc0gnet0]

From the pictures Keith I think what you might be seeing (key word is think) may not so much be a difference in genetics of the two type of fry, but maybe a difference in the sex, with the ones in question being male. This is purely based on a simular cross and having watching them develop, but it was only one batch.

I would think that a cross between two closely related strains would throw a pretty consistant group of fry with only minor deviations, but one never knows how pure the genetics of the parents are until they work with them for a few batches. Nice looking fry btw, and be sure to keep some of each if you plan on taking these to the F2, otherwise you might end up with all males or all females.

Rick

[Keith Perkins]

That all sounds pretty logical Rick. I'm thinking of keeping maybe 8, need to figure out tank moves soon.

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Keith,

Very beautiful looking fry! I want some!!!!!!

Nice color and shape. WTG

[Rod]

Hi Keith,

The 2nd fry is a golden color instead of brown base? Is that the difference you are referring to? Lovely base color on both sets of fry, well done mate.

[Keith Perkins]

Partially Rod, but the golden based fish also appear to be barless (see the third picture, probably the only good picture). I may try feeding them tonight and then taking pictures. Getting juvies that size to slow down is quite a trick.

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Hi Keith,

Any updates on these guys? Photos?

[Keith Perkins]

Well Grandma just got home recently so of course the camera died quickly tonight. Here's a few photos but some of them are a little sketchy.

Here is a shot of the golden bodied variety with red finnage that I have no idea what it is. The one in the background I believe will look like the parents.

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x418/CozyKeith/100_3636.jpg

Here's a better shot of one I believe will look the parents.

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x418/CozyKeith/100_3641.jpg

Here's a picture of both for contrast.

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x418/CozyKeith/100_3642.jpg

[Bill63SG]

Cr@p Keith,looks like I gave you one of my melon's.

[discuspaul]

All I can say Keith, is that those fry look pretty darn good - and no doubt they'll turn out looking great as adults !
The only thing I think you may need to do is get a better camera, or sharpen up your photographic skills - that's all - LOL
No offense, my friend !!! Your fish are beautiful, as usual.

[Keith Perkins]

That's the problem with letting grandma take the camera to visit the grandkids for 5 days, the camera gets well used. I normally would have taken 3 or 4 times as many pictures of them so I could get some really good ones, but with the battery dieing so quickly it is what it is. Hoping Rod will have some thoughts with these pics, but if not the cameras charging. Lot's of thoughts going through my mind what the could be, probably all of which are wrong.

[Rod]

Hi Keith, looking really nice mate. Looks like golden to me. It's a recessive gene, both your parents must be carriers. I'd say they will look like RGD or golden melon when they grow up, depending on how well the red color transfers. Well done. Rod :)

[Keith Perkins]

Interesting, thank you very much for the information Rod. I'll pass your compliment on to the pair; I mostly just feed, change water and wipe down glass. :) I assume RGD is Red Golden Diamond, can't think of any other thing that fits that acronym.

[Second Hand Pat]

Keith, sounds like your golden based fry could be quite interesting. Glad you are keeping some.

[Rod]

Yes, RGD is Red Gold Diamond. :)

Many people confuse this golden gene with the pigeon blood gene because the traits from each mutation can look quite similar. But the most obvious difference is in the breeding, pigeons are controlled by a dominant gene and do not hide, whereas of course the golden gene is recessive and hides.

[Keith Perkins]

It was probably too small a batch of fry to say much about the percentages, but about 25% turned out this way. Any input on that or what the results might be just keeping this type of off-spring to breed?

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Great job Keith!!!

I am interested in a trade for some of my Dark Angels soon. This will be interesting as I like the RGD line.

[nc0gnet0]

Very interesting indeed! Back to the first post.......Are the parents a (1)Virgin Red and a (2)Red cover, and then you crossed them......Or were both parents the result of a crossing between a VR and a RC (thus F1's)? When I first answered your question on page one, I assumed it to be the former......now that a re-read and look at the results, it appears it was the latter?

Rick

[Keith Perkins]

Rick - the parents were sold by Kenny in November as a Red Cover/Virgin Red Cross (F1s), you surmised correctly. Sorry, guess I didn't make that as clear as I could have.

Jeff - as happy as I am for you that you've got some babies from your dark angels they just aren't for me. I'm PB free at the moment and I may stay that way. I love the colors they offer, but oh how I hate peppering.

[Bill63SG]

It was probably too small a batch of fry to say much about the percentages, but about 25% turned out this way. Any input on that or what the results might be just keeping this type of off-spring to breed?Sounds like 25% might be going into a 46 gal.

[Keith Perkins]

Sounds like 25% might be going into a 46 gal.

Maybe eventually, but I think a 26 or 29 first.

Oh, and the parents spawned tonight. She doesn't lay many eggs, but fortunately it's been well over a month since her last batch so there are a few more than in the past.

[Rod]

It was probably too small a batch of fry to say much about the percentages, but about 25% turned out this way. Any input on that or what the results might be just keeping this type of off-spring to breed? 25% from 2 recessive carriers is correct and exactly as expected. 50% from 1 recessive carrier and 1 expressing recessive trait. 100% from 2 individuals expressing recessive trait. (ie breed 2 goldens together, and you will receive all golden fry)

[Keith Perkins]

THANK YOU ROD! I often sadly don't connect all the dots when you're speaking genetics, but this message couldn't be clearer.

[Second Hand Pat]

This thread is reminding me of biology 101 LOL. That's been a while.

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Jeff - as happy as I am for you that you've got some babies from your dark angels they just aren't for me. I'm PB free at the moment and I may stay that way. I love the colors they offer, but oh how I hate peppering.

Understandable Keith. No sign of any peppering in this pair what so ever. Hope thats a good thing.

I have about 24 ARSG cross with Albino Leopard intermediate F1. There are about 10 albino's in this batch. I hope they all growout with some awesome colors. Keep it in mind.

[Rod]

THANK YOU ROD! I often sadly don't connect all the dots when you're speaking genetics, but this message couldn't be clearer.

Your welcome!

I do struggle with how to explain these things in simple language. It is a difficult concept to explain without the use of some technical jargon as it is so wierd.

Or we could just go with: My apoligizes to anyone who has been compelled to grab a dictionary after reading one of my posts....:D

[mmorris]

Or we could just go with: My apoligizes to anyone who has been compelled to grab a dictionary after reading one of my posts....:D

LOL That would be me. :)

[nc0gnet0]

Keith,

You might want to seperate the goldens from the rest for growout purposes. Eventually the browns will outcompete them for food.

Rick

[Keith Perkins]

Or we could just go with: My apoligizes to anyone who has been compelled to grab a dictionary after reading one of my posts....:D

I might be able to connect the dots better if I went and found the dictionary. Then again, maybe not. I was ALWAYS one of those students who learned a lot more from the lectures than I did attempting to read it.

[Keith Perkins]

Keith,

You might want to seperate the goldens from the rest for grwoout purposes. Eventually the browns will outcompete them for food.

Rick

Thanks for the tip Rick, but at least this time that won't be a problem. This was the pairs very first successful batch and after I culled there are only 17 juvies left. It just so happens a member accidentally contacted me and it appears they are going to buy the 12 that are brown based, so I'll just have the 5 left that are golden. I read your PM quickly and I'll reread that and respond when I get home.

Keith

[Keith Perkins]

Ah the joys of discus keeping, someone ate all the eggs. :(

[Chicago Discus]

They look great Keith love em......josie

[Keith Perkins]

Last night I made a cage from some white plastic gutter guard and zip ties for Barb's cone so I'm all ready for the next spawn. Before the successful spawn the female laid every 5 days so it could end being put to use Sunday evening. It's been a while since I've been excited about something discus related, what a great bonus this pair having a recessive golden gene.

Thanks again to Rod for refreshing my biology education. Besides what he's said here I've exchanged a few PMs with him and am saving the info forever. Thanks too to Kenny and Forrest for bringing in the parents, I hope I have them around for a long long time.

[Trier20]

Last night I made a cage from some white plastic gutter guard and zip ties for Barb's cone so I'm all ready for the next spawn.

LOL thats what i did. i was pretty proud of it while i was making it. Then i saw the finished product......wasn't proud of that BUT, it worked

[Pardal]

Keith
They look nice, keep us posted.

[Keith Perkins]

Keith
They look nice, keep us posted.

Thanks.


LOL thats what i did. i was pretty proud of it while i was making it. Then i saw the finished product......wasn't proud of that BUT, it worked

Mine didn't turn out too bad, but it took a while. Cutting the thick edge off the gutter guard before you start makes it a little easier to work with. Maybe I'll take a pic of it latter. It's currently in use, as the pair decided too mess with me and spawn yesterday afternoon, a day before I expected. That's the good news, unfortunately this spawn is only about a third of the size of the last one and the eggs sure aren't in a tight grouping.

[Trier20]

75219
That's what mine looks like