Dwarf Discus?

[shrimper]

Pardon my ignorance but I was wondering why breeders don't breed dwarf discus strain?

[shrimper]

Obviously I don't mean a stunted discus, but just like they is a red melon, blue diamond or a golden discus why not a miniature discus?

[tonytheboss1]

:bandana: Why would you want to alter the natural growth progression of this cichlid?? There are smaller, very colorful, SA's & CA's already in existense. This fish, if properly cared for, is destined to max at around 7"+. Maybe it's just me but I think that would take away from the majesty of the "KING of the AQUARIUM" "T"

[Skip]

they do.. its called BULLDOG DISCUS>> they are deformed

http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv244/Discus_sanctuary/090525_OPO_Paulo/4078.jpg

[John_Nicholson]

If I remember correctly Dr, Ken Reeves tried this back in the '80's. They were as unwanted then as they would be now.

-john

[mmorris]

That's interesting...do you have a link to an article that describes what he was able to accomplish and how the fish were marketed?

[John_Nicholson]

It has been so long I doubt there is much still out there. I believe that were about 4 inch fish. I think he was trying to get them down to 3 inches.

-john

[shrimper]

thanks John, interesting that there was no market for a dwarf.

[dprais1]

Go to any pet store (well almost any) and you will see what the market is for fish in general and regular discus especially. the market for dwarf discus, initially would be a portion of an already small market, I expect it would take several years to have any financial success-and that is after many years developing and perfecting dwarf strains.
and if you become a success then others will steal some market share by breding thier own. and then it comes to will you pay 100 for a 2.5" fish when you could pay 50.00 for a 3.5" even if it is a dwarf?

[shrimper]

But that's like saying someone wouldn't pay more for miniature poodle because a regular poodle cost x?

I am not being difficult, just curious why there wasn't one.

[dprais1]

I think a 55gal tank with 25 or 30 1-2" fully grown and colored discus would look great. but I would have a hard time justifying the costs. maybe it is irrational but it doesn't change that much. really i don't think there is demand or a breeder that is dedicated to the idea enough to put forth all the time and money.

[wannadivesteve]

I'd think a single dedicated breeder might see tank space being used for generations that could be bringing in money the traditional route, the risk of putting a good portion of your eggs in one basket for an unproven product might be too big for most breeders. It might be more practical, especially since it's really pretty experimental and has an unknown demand, if a handful of breeders were interested in working together with the goal of producing a small discus to where no one individual had to devote that much space/time to the project.

[dprais1]

I think that most of the breeders do it for the love of the hobby and not to make any money. Hence they breed or develop strains that make them happy...big round fish

[dpete9]

they do.. its called BULLDOG DISCUS>> they are deformed

http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv244/Discus_sanctuary/090525_OPO_Paulo/4078.jpg

aren't they cute? shrink those babies down another inch, make them in a nice LSS color and i'm ready for a group of 30 non-breeding (non aggressive) in a display tank.. Of course I wouldn't want to spend more than $5 -10 a piece for them..


Anyways I think that's what the average person would think. So you as a breeder try to sell them for a price that would recoup some of your investment in food, utilities and time, say $40 for sub adults, and suddenly no one wants to buy them.


Still it would be sweet to have a big group of midget discus in a planted tank.

[DiscusDrew]

I find no pleasure in the idea of a small discus... Guess that counts out my tanks.

[dpete9]

hmm wouldn't it be fun to have a tiny midget horse as a house pet off subject.. A.D.H.D speaking. sorry

[TNT77]

hmm wouldn't it be fun to have a tiny midget horse as a house pet off subject.. A.D.H.D speaking. sorry
Lol the farm I worked at in Ocala had a mini stallion they used to let into the house all the time.

[dprais1]

think of all the money the discus shows could save if they only needed .5 gallon tanks to display the fish.

and yes a good sized tank with a literal school od discus would be a great novelty and look fantastic

JMO

[dpete9]

Lol the farm I worked at in Ocala had a mini stallion they used to let into the house all the time. Now that's the kind of job I would want. ;-)


think of all the money the discus shows could save if they only needed .5 gallon tanks to display the fish. LOL Fishbowls

[TNT77]

Now that's the kind of job I would want. ;-)
Can you imagine walking into someones house and seeing a miniature horse running to the door with a group of dobermans lol.

[dprais1]

Tara you have a discus room or close enough. would you ever dedicate any time/space/money to dwarf discus?

[shrimper]

I wouldn't want to spend more than $5 -10 a piece for them..
.

Gees I need to move to US, here in Aus higher quality GBR cost $25 each or more :(

[dpete9]

Gees I need to move to US, here in Aus higher quality GBR cost $25 each or more :(

You missed the point.. I was just showing you what the average consumer might think..

[Jdizon20]

I would welcome the choice and I would pay the same or a little bit more. But then again it's all about supply and demand.

[mmorris]

I think two inch discus would be brilliant! I wouldn't want to work on developing it, though, because I would have to cull everything in the process. They would just be runts.

[Skip]

I find no pleasure in the idea of a small discus... Guess that counts out my tanks.

exactly!!

maybe they could get DWARF Killer Whales! or DWARF Great White Sharks.!! that would be SWEET!!!

[Trier20]

exactly!!

maybe they could get DWARF Killer Whales! or DWARF Great White Sharks.!! that would be SWEET!!!

Don't sell that bio cube Skip! Lol

[Skip]

Don't sell that bio cube Skip! Lol

+1

[dpete9]

Don't sell that bio cube Skip! Lol
set it up for a pygmy dolphin corral ??:cowboy:

[Skip]

set it up for a pygmy dolphin corral ??:cowboy:

i am sure there is a MARKET FOR THAT!!

[Lenin]

I just don't see how you could get past the eye development

[dpete9]

I just don't see how you could get past the eye development
yes in all seriousness I wonder how anyone could breed for a dwarf discus. to get your original stock you'd have to grow out what others normally cull put a lot of time and effort in to getting the things to adults and then find out they are in fact just a sick genetically inferior fish.. seems like it would take tremendous effort just to find those few fish that make it to healthy adults..

[joshvito]

exactly!!

maybe they could get DWARF Killer Whales! or DWARF Great White Sharks.!! that would be SWEET!!!

I've always wanted a mini elephant! Like 10-15 # max size.


TFCEC Member
Join a local fish club.
www.tropical-fish-club-of-erie-county.com

[mmorris]

I just don't see how you could get past the eye development
I'm not sure what you mean, but as I understand it, it is stunted discus, not runts, that have abnormally large (for body size) eyes.

[DiscusDrew]

Yeah you have to realize the mutated gene you wood look for would eliminate the eye problem. The idea most likely wouldn't be to force a big discus to only become two inches... But to take the non stunted discus that already develop to a smaller size and inbreed, line breed, and so on until you start popping out miniature discus. That's a very simple explanation of years of work but hopefully you get the point.

[tonytheboss1]

:argue: I still say why tamper w/ perfection?? It is refered to as the "KING of the AQUARIUM" for a very good reason. It has attributes like no other, it ain't broken so why try to fix it? I guess I'm old fashioned. I believe it should be as it is. "T"

[DiscusDrew]

Im just explaining what you would do to move things in that direction, like I said previously... I draw no enjoyment of pleasure from the idea of a small discus.... In fact I dont even order juvies anymore, I raise my babies but thats about it.

[Lenin]

I understand but the economics don't make sense, like it was stated placing all the time and effort and then just having someone buying a few of them and getting a breeding pair from that will pretty much kill any chance of getting your investment back, unless you can sterilize the discus.

[DiscusDrew]

If that were true then Hans and Johnnathan and Mike Beals would be out of business..... and trust me my discus arent sterile lol. This whole thread is based on a string of assumptions though, I just doubt there would be much interest in a small discus. People in this market pay appropriately for the quality and origin of their fish, which means if a breeder became known for a dwarf discus that did not suffer health problems or anything of the nature, then my guess would be he would always be able to sell his fish, even when breeders have started popping out babies from his stock. Just like what happens now in the large discus market. I breed and still make plenty of money off my fish, my guess would be though it has relatively little impact on the amount of people that order directly from Hans to recieve stendker discus. Im just playing devil's advocate here lol, because I have no interest in popping out little discus whatsoever but for the sake of argumentation....

[Orange Crush]

How about a very small jellyfish tank for only $500!
http://www.amazon.com/Jellyfish-Art-Desktop-Tank-3-Pack/dp/B0081BXC1O/ref=sr_1_4?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1344019900&sr=1-4&keywords=jellyfish+aquarium

[Trier20]

How about a very small jellyfish tank for only $500!
http://www.amazon.com/Jellyfish-Art-Desktop-Tank-3-Pack/dp/B0081BXC1O/ref=sr_1_4?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1344019900&sr=1-4&keywords=jellyfish+aquarium

That is kinda cool. But for 500 bucks I'd rather just Put it towards more discus :)

[wannadivesteve]

Yeah you have to realize the mutated gene you wood look for would eliminate the eye problem. The idea most likely wouldn't be to force a big discus to only become two inches... But to take the non stunted discus that already develop to a smaller size and inbreed, line breed, and so on until you start popping out miniature discus. That's a very simple explanation of years of work but hopefully you get the point.

Yup.

People forget that discus are a specialty and there's almost always someone who will pay for a specialty item. Design a properly proportioned and colored fish that maxes out at a couple inches and there likely, not guaranteed, will be someone wanting to buy them, even if it costs a pretty penny. Getting in on the ground floor of a "mutation" can be attractive to the adventurous sorts. I remember when albino oscars came out... cost a ton. I had a shop back in the 80's/early 90's, was offered 1.5" albino oscars that I would have had to sell for $145 or more each, I didn't bother till they came down to where I could offer them at 80-90 bucks each... and they sold. Now they are cheap. Someone made very decent money to begin with, I had a supplier who said the originator sat on them till he could flood the market at a high price and made a mint. If someone could develop a small well proportioned amd colored strain, they'd probably do OK to well, and eventually it'd become a slightly higher priced bread and butter fish for stores because of the small size allowing them to go into more tanks.

[dprais1]

:argue: I still say why tamper w/ perfection?? It is refered to as the "KING of the AQUARIUM" for a very good reason. It has attributes like no other, it ain't broken so why try to fix it? I guess I'm old fashioned. I believe it should be as it is. "T"

so you only keep, wilds? all domestic strains and color morphs is all a result of tampering with nature. Unless you are saying that somethings have more aesthetic value when altered, such as color and shape and eye size, and others are taboo?

[tonytheboss1]

:bandana: Choosing color morphs or strains (tank bred vs wild caught) is a bit different from what the OP's intentions are. A black lab or a chocolate lab is still a full bred labrador retriever. Altering the physical structure & size of the fish is a bit deeper than adding pink & blue to get lavender. I would love to have the opportunity to have a wild caught pair one day. That would be the ultimate. Nature at it's truest. Till then I will settle for the selection of Stendkers that presently occupy my tank. "T"

[dprais1]

:bandana: Choosing color morphs or strains (tank bred vs wild caught) is a bit different from what the OP's intentions are. A black lab or a chocolate lab is still a full bred labrador retriever. Altering the physical structure & size of the fish is a bit deeper than adding pink & blue to get lavender. I would love to have the opportunity to have a wild caught pair one day. That would be the ultimate. Nature at it's truest. Till then I will settle for the selection of Stendkers that presently occupy my tank. "T"

Agreed. but i would still buy some dwarfs if they ever went on the market and they didn't end up with all the problems that plague the mini types of dogs

[TNT77]

:bandana: Choosing color morphs or strains (tank bred vs wild caught) is a bit different from what the OP's intentions are. A black lab or a chocolate lab is still a full bred labrador retriever. Altering the physical structure & size of the fish is a bit deeper than adding pink & blue to get lavender. I would love to have the opportunity to have a wild caught pair one day. That would be the ultimate. Nature at it's truest. Till then I will settle for the selection of Stendkers that presently occupy my tank. "T"
So for the altering the size of the fish comment...whats so different for breeding for these extra large strains versus breeding for a smaller strain. You are not altering body structure like you would a bulldog or high body fish just size like people are trying for with these jumbos or giant gene fish. I just don't see how you can make a comment on one being wrong over the other. Not that Im promoting this nor going to try it.

[tonytheboss1]

:bandana: Again, this is just me Tara. I feel strongly about altering the normal, natural physical structure or size of the discus period. Whether it's 'super sized' or dwarfed, I'm not for it. No 'Frankenstien' tendencies whatsoever. I understand that experimentation is necessary for certain things but this I feel is just fine as is. As to whether there could be a market for maxi or mini, I'm sure there will always be someone who will pay handsomely to own something different or new or unique. The question isn't if it can be done but should it be done?? For me the answer is no. "T"

[Elliots]

I think that if it were possible to reduce the size of Discus by selective breeding they would be very salable. If the size reduction did not cause any physical problems for the smaller Discus that would be great. How many mature 3-4 inch discus could you keep in a 20-30 gallon tank? How big a school could you put in a 100 gallon tank? One of the considerations of Discus price is size. How long does it take and how much does it cost to raise a current Discus to 3-4 inches? If there were a smaller Discus with 3-4 inch adults that might take how many times longer to get adults, two, three or four times as long? How much more would it cost. I think you would have to pay 2-4 times the price for 3-4 inch adults verses 3-4 inch juvies. I am not a geneticist but it seems possible to get smaller adult Discus by breeding the smaller adults with each other. People like bigger Discus so I think breeders prefer to breed the biggest adults. This would give something to use the smaller adults for. Then there is the matter of space to do this and what to do with the fry as the fish size gets smaller? I do not think it will happen although at first it sounds good.

[Kal-El]

I wouldn't mind if at full grown they are 3" and look like the quick photoshop pic I did below. I would dwarfs mainly for show tank.

Pictures shows the same fish 6" full grown and dwarf size 3".

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c145/imageher/discus-wallpaper.jpg

[cjr8420]

what ever u do just dont call it a midget discus lol.

[dpete9]

what ever u do just dont call it a midget discus lol.
midget discus wrestling

[Elliots]

Dwarf photoshop looks great!

[shrimper]

Gees, I didn't think this thread would be so popular. Just to let everyone know, why I asked this question in the first place...

I've been keeping fish for ten years but I stayed away from Discus because I just didn't have the time to keep Discus properly.

Just the thought of 25, 30 or 50% daily WC on my larger 60G tank by the bucket was out of the question lol.

And all my water changes are by the bucket, yes I know there are pythons etc etc but I still do it by the bucket.

So if Dwarfs were available, I think I could have started years ago in a 60G with weekly water change (keeping the bioload low) or a group in a 20G (with daily WC).

:)

[fishaddiction]

I think it would be cool to have miniature s too.i would live to have my 75 show tank in the living room and a30 in the bedroom with miniatures lol

[Bilbo]

Enter.... Flowerhorn discussion..... J/K

[discusmat]

Ok how would you know if you had a runt or not? and how would you know if it's growing out normal or not?

[AquaAnt]

Well to revive an old thread here is a picture of a red turquoise that is 8 months old that is no larger than 2 inches from mouth to tail...I am not trying to breed it BUT I am not going to cull it either since its a part of the family...

81198

81199

81200

81201

[Kal-El]

Well to revive an old thread here is a picture of a red turquoise that is 8 months old that is no larger than 2 inches from mouth to tail...I am not trying to breed it BUT I am not going to cull it either since its a part of the family...

81198

81199

81200

81201

Those are what I consider stunt discus... LOL...

[JamesP]

I understand culling is not fun. That said a runt/stunted fish can cause you much bigger issues. That fish could have genetic issues. But it may also have a disease that could spread to your other fish. I would hate to see you lose all of your fish because of that one. Remember in nature it would most likely not have survived to this point.

Jim

[OC Discus]

Bonsai Trees have a market. Pygmy goats have a market. Teacup Poodles have a market. I'm sure if someone could produce a miniature discus that was well formed there would be a market for it. The question is is a well shaped and colored strain even possible? If it were possible, would it be cost effective? People are used to paying less for small fish and more for big ones.

[Skip]

If there is a market.. the Asians will do it... but not to date

[clkjay]

nice