Trier20 - Cedar Rapids, Iowa, USA

[Trier20]

My blue pigeon blood pair decided to spawn after taking a lengthy vacation after I moved them across my basement to their new home. I decided not to update until they actually became wigglers since none of their spawns has been sucessful up instill this one(so far). The difference was this time I was able to be home to catch them before she started laying so i turned the filter off and treated with meth blue. After two days I has wigglers and as of yesterday they went free swimming. I had to remove the filter I was using do to the fact that it was now dark green and all the free swimmers were attaching to it and not the parents. I also lowered the water to an inch or two above the parents. I had 2 or 3 attach yesterday and few more found them through the night. I tried explains to the parents how to be more successfull. Hopefully it works! This will be my first time raising fry so I want to document what I'm doing for future reference. I'm still debating on whether to do the contest or not.....?
Male
http://img.tapatalk.com/aefd9339-b1e2-7d9c.jpg
Female
http://img.tapatalk.com/aefd9339-b207-0895.jpg
July 31 Spawn
http://img.tapatalk.com/aefd9339-b257-058f.jpg

[rdiscus]

August 31 is 3 weeks away ...

Good luck with them !

[Chicago Discus]

My blue pigeon blood pair decided to spawn after taking a lengthy vacation after I moved them across my basement to their new home. I decided not to update until they actually became wigglers since none of their spawns has been sucessful up instill this one(so far). The difference was this time I was able to be home to catch them before she started laying so i turned the filter off and treated with meth blue. After two days I has wigglers and as of yesterday they went free swimming. I had to remove the filter I was using do to the fact that it was now dark green and all the free swimmers were attaching to it and not the parents. I also lowered the water to an inch or two above the parents. I had 2 or 3 attach yesterday and few more found them through the night. I tried explains to the parents how to be more successfull. Hopefully it works! This will be my first time raising fry so I want to document what I'm doing for future reference. I'm still debating on whether to do the contest or not.....?

I really like that pair I remember them good luck with those guys they will make some nice babies......Josie

[Second Hand Pat]

Good luck Brandon

[nwehrman]

Good Luck Brandon!


Nicole

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Trier20]

Thanks everyone! I'm trying not to get excited bc I've learned things happen. But for now its going pretty well. Lol

[Chicago Discus]

Thanks everyone! I'm trying not to get excited bc I've learned things happen. But for now its going pretty well. Lol

You got this brandon Lots of Etta James and Barry White.....Josie

[Trier20]

You got this brandon Lots of Etta James and Barry White.....Josie

Lol come to think of it the might before they spawned we were listening to the Frank Sinatra station on slacker radio.....maybe we should do that more often lol

[Second Hand Pat]

Brandon, how are your BBS hatching skills?

[Keith Perkins]

Congrats, hope you get your first batch out of them.

[Trier20]

Brandon, how are your BBS hatching skills?

BBS what is that!? lol jk i'm sure they are as good as someone who hasn't done it before...i need to find some 2 ltr bottles...which is hard to do since we don't get them ever... i have the rest of what i need just not the bottles...:)

[Trier20]

Congrats, hope you get your first batch out of them.

thanks Keith i'm hoping so too! I wanna see what these things can produce

[Keith Perkins]

Time to hit walmart for thier two liter bottles of flavored water or the dollar store.

[Trier20]

That's a good idea. I only have a couple days to figure it out

[Trier20]

Went home on my lunch break to do my feeding and check on these guys and saw that they have pretty much figured it out.The free swimmers are in the corners so if we go to the corners they are more likely to attach......They listened to me :)Smart parents!

[Second Hand Pat]

Sweet

[Keith Perkins]

Why didn't you tell them to go directly to the sides of the parents? :confused:

[Trier20]

Why didn't you tell them to go directly to the sides of the parents? :confused:

i was having a chat with the parents. but i guess talking to the fry wouldve worked a little better huh... dang

[Trier20]

Ok here some pics of the swimmers tonight.7498974990

[Discus-Hans]

Ok here some pics of the swimmers tonight.7498974990

Nice Brandon, good for you!!!!!!!!

Hans

[JenTN]

Congrats!!!

[Trier20]

August 31 is 3 weeks away ...

Good luck with them !

Yup just realized what I did here hahaha

[Trier20]

Thank you Hans and Jen!

[brewmaster15]

brandon,
I changed the thread title per your request...al

[Trier20]

Thank you good sir

[Trier20]

Here is a pic I snapped quickly of my break. More and more joining each day!
75025

[Trier20]

So here is a little video I took tonight. Enjoy! http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s422/trier20/9c627e6a.mp4

[Discus-Hans]

NICE BRANDON !!!!!!!!!!!

Hans

[Disgirl]

Beautiful family you have there Brandon! Good luck with them!
Barb

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Grats on your success!

Some of those fry would look good in my sand base 90 gallon tank.

[Trier20]

NICE BRANDON !!!!!!!!!!!

Hans

Thanks Hans! But what really should be said is NICE HANS!!!!!! Since that is who I did get them from :)

[Trier20]

Beautiful family you have there Brandon! Good luck with them!
Barb

Thanks Barb! Again this wouldn't have happened without your great comes!

[Trier20]

Grats on your success!

Some of those fry would look good in my sand base 90 gallon tank.

Thanks Jeff! Pm sent

[shoveltrash]

congrats Brandon!
that's a lovely pair.

[Trier20]

congrats Brandon!
that's a lovely pair.

Thanks Trish! I love these guys too very pretty fishes and great parents to top it off.

[JenTN]

Brandon I am really happy for you...I know how much you wanted it!

[Trier20]

Brandon I am really happy for you...I know how much you wanted it!

All I took was turning the filter down. I have a 300gpd RO unit now lol

[Second Hand Pat]

Congrats Brandon, nice job and nice pair.

[Trier20]

Congrats Brandon, nice job and nice pair.

Thanks Pat!

[Trier20]

Ok here is a pic from tonight. Went to the state fair yesterday and didn't get home till this morning right before I had to go to work. It's amazing how they grow in one day!75139
Sorry about the poor picture quality. Shooting from my phone since I don't have a real camera. I also set up my bbs hatchery tonight so tomorrow well be good to go!
75140

[Keith Perkins]

LOL. Somehow I missed seeing the first picture and clicked on the second one. It took a few seconds to see I was looking at picture 2 of 2. Looks like the little ones are making good progress.

[Trier20]

LOL. Somehow I missed seeing the first picture and clicked on the second one. It took a few seconds to see I was looking at picture 2 of 2. Looks like the little ones are making good progress.

Guinness extra stout for breakfast? Lol

[Keith Perkins]

No, but I could use one now. No, make that I could use a couple now.

[Trier20]

Well it's ok since it's passed noon

[Trier20]

Here is tonight's update. Fry as still feeding off mom and dad. My bbs hatching skills definitely suck! Haven't lost any since free swimming so I'm thankful for that. What type of salt do you guys use? Here tonight's pic.
75188

[Discus-Hans]

Brandon,

I use normal Morton salt in 2 liter bottle = 1 ~ 1.5 TEA spoon eggs + 1 TABLE spoon of salt, 24 hour on air and done,

I hatch them in buckets lol lol

Hans

[Keith Perkins]

I buy the cheapest store brand salt on the shelf that doesn't have iodine. Then when I run out of that I steal my wife's salt out of the kitchen cupboard.

[Trier20]

Thank you Keith and Hans!

[nc0gnet0]

Any Canning Salt will do and is the cheapest. If you have extremely soft water you might have a problem with hatch rates of the BBS, in which case you need to raise the ph. This can be accomplished by using Aquarium/Reef Salt.

Rick

[Trier20]

Thanks Rick! Definitely don't have a low ph problem. API high range kit is maxed out

[Trier20]

Thank you Keith and Hans again! They hatched this time and they took them first feeding. I told them good job!

[Trier20]

75215
Here they are tonight. When do you know it's time to seperate? Parents are starting to get a little feisty and doing the dance again.

[Keith Perkins]

I don't have a magic number of days, it varies with every batch. Parents not tolerating the fry or looking chewed up, I pull the parents. Spawn size, tank space, desire for the parents to spawn again, etc. all go into the equation. You could throw in how well the babies are eating bbs or other food other than the parents as well. Your at about 3 weeks and that's a pretty common time to start thinking about separating them.

[Trier20]

We played musical tanks in the fish room. Fry are now in their own pad moved the blue grow outsntontheir new tank and breeding come went back in with the parents. Fry were eating bbs like its their jobs today after their move so that is good! Here is tonight's pic.
75227

[Trier20]

Here they are munching on some grindage.
http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s422/trier20/BBCD4248-8FCF-4486-9D31-4C476EDB924E-3548-0000066A453AE622.mp4

[Trier20]

Tonight's update
http://s1051.photobucket.com/albums/s422/trier20/?action=view&current=B736AE66-F693-4DE8-9943-C6B0E1C7AD4D-1358-000001E09EB47DB2.mp4

[Trier20]

As said on my video last night I tried the ground FDBW today. They loved them! So thank you both Al and Dan for the yummy treats. My batch of bbs didn't hatch last night so thank god they liked them! As anticipated the pair decided to spawn again today. I had filter and air stone turned almost off to ensure fertilization. Mandi got to treat with meth blue this time and must have been pretty good at it as I see no new blue patches in the fish room or on her. Looks to be a decent number in the clutch. At what size do people normally start to cull? I noticed one with a funky gill flap but lost him in the mix.

[DiscusDrew]

I dont pull anything until at least 4 weeks and quarter size usually, let them develop a little, if they are breathing and doing ok (no signs of illness or anything like that) then they arent hurting anything.... Not to mention its easier to spot them and catch them when they get bigger haha. You dont want to be culling stuff that shouldnt be.... better to wait and see, dont throw money down the drain.

[Trier20]

I dont pull anything until at least 4 weeks and quarter size usually, let them develop a little, if they are breathing and doing ok (no signs of illness or anything like that) then they arent hurting anything.... Not to mention its easier to spot them and catch them when they get bigger haha. You dont want to be culling stuff that shouldnt be.... better to wait and see, dont throw money down the drain.

Holy cow someone does visit the homestead! Lol thanks Drew! I was thinking of having a tank for culls to see how well I'm culling and what they might turn out to look like if they live. Idk call me crazy

[Trier20]

Here is a terrible picture to give an idea of their size now. I think they are on track. Planning on getting an actual camera here in the future. All of these photo buffs on here has sparked it up for me again. :)

75485

[Second Hand Pat]

Brandon, they are like three weeks old now? You should see them starting to round up quite a bit.

[Trier20]

Yea they are just about three weeks free swimming. I'm seeing some color coming through. Though some are larger than others. Still not bad for the first ones I think.

[Second Hand Pat]

Brandon, I am raising my second batch and I cannot get a uniform size either. I am even getting a size different with my eight contest fish. Hmmm, sounds like a good discussion topic in a new thread :)

Agreed, not bad at all :)

[Trier20]

Brandon, I am raising my second batch and I cannot get a uniform size either. I am even getting a size different with my eight contest fish. Hmmm, sounds like a good discussion topic in a new thread :)

Agreed, not bad at all :)

Thanks Pat! Now to start reading and re-reading threads on shipping. Oh and buying supplies.... Lol

[Second Hand Pat]

Brandon, this is where you will learn that shipping is a PITA and shipping supplies expensive. You might try local first :)

[Trier20]

Well I thought since i'm now apart of the contest I should let out my secrets of raising these little guys. I left them in with their parents for about 2 weeks free swimming. I was having trouble getting BBS hatched so they were feeding off the parents only. After I was giving some good advice I was able to get some hatched so they ate those for a week. I had a day that my BBS didn't hatch so I ground up some FDBW with some flake in it and they took on that. After that night they have been on the FDBW and flake mix soley. They get two 90%+ WC's daily and I have the tank at 88 degrees and tank sides are wiped daily. Tank get one good scrub down a week. At three weeks FS most are dime sized and are growing well. I look forward to the future and can't wait to look back at their progress. I hope I don't bore people with this thread :)

[PeeWee]

Using mandis phone since mine is out of commission. I have had one fry die last two days. Since moves to their own tank I have a group that stays at the top of the tank I'm the back right corner. They come out to eat but them return when they are done.

[Trier20]

lost another last night. same size as the last possibly a little smaller. checked parameters and everything seemed normal. my guess is they all had some sort of defect or something.?

[Trier20]

Ok... Definitely think something funky is going on. I had SIX dead at tonight's water change. Non we're dead at their feeding in the afternoon. I'm going to cut back on the amounts at feeding time to see if that helps. The other fry get two less feedings and I'm loosing less in that tank. If I had time to do three 90% wcs daily I would. My half hour break just doesn't cut it. The rest of the fry in the tank(minus one whom is pretty peppered) look well. We'll see if the new routine works better. Any ideas let me know thanks

[Keith Perkins]

I was afraid of this when I read your prior post. My first thought is you have something bacterial going on in your tank. If it was me I would clean the tank really well and dose with PP. This situation can sometimes wipe out half a batch or more, not a good situation for sure. Been there done that, I feel for you.

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Sorry to hear you are losing fry Brandon. I picked up a couple months ago an auto-feeder and I crushed some FDBW along with so Pro-Growth flakes and set the feeder to feed 4 times a day, fry love it. So I feed 6 times daily and after work I do 75% water change. They are growing out nicely.

Are you aging your water Brandon?

Hope all works out for you.

[nc0gnet0]

Are the fry going dark after feeding? Do they remain dark? What else can you share about the symptoms?

Rick

[Chicago Discus]

Are tje fry goimg dark after feeding? Do they remain dark? What else can you share about the symptoms?

Rick

+1 can you make a video

[shawnhu]

Ok... Definitely think something funky is going on. I had SIX dead at tonight's water change. Non we're dead at their feeding in the afternoon. I'm going to cut back on the amounts at feeding time to see if that helps. The other fry get two less feedings and I'm loosing less in that tank. If I had time to do three 90% wcs daily I would. My half hour break just doesn't cut it. The rest of the fry in the tank(minus one whom is pretty peppered) look well. We'll see if the new routine works better. Any ideas let me know thanks

Sorry to hear of the losses in fry. Hope you can figure out what the problem might be. I enjoy following your threads.

[Second Hand Pat]

Fry slightly dark, fins closed, maybe slightly head standing, not eating well or vigorously. Sound about right?

[nc0gnet0]

Or, look fine, then eat/go dark/die?

[Trier20]

Or, look fine, then eat/go dark/die?

Look fine, eat then I go back to work so I don't know what happens in between.

[nc0gnet0]

Look fine, eat then I go back to work so I don't know what happens in between.

Observation is essential.

[Chicago Discus]

Ok if they are eating and showing no signs of illness then its one or two things,
1. water quality problem ammonia in the tank or
2. gill flukes

but i cant see the fry so its hard to say its just my guess......Josie

[Trier20]

Fry slightly dark, fins closed, maybe slightly head standing, not eating well or vigorously. Sound about right?
Fins open, not dark, eating very well some slight head standing. My thought for that was the FDBW causing constipation. The head standing only lasts a few hours and then goes away after they poo.

[Trier20]

Sorry to hear you are losing fry Brandon. I picked up a couple months ago an auto-feeder and I crushed some FDBW along with so Pro-Growth flakes and set the feeder to feed 4 times a day, fry love it. So I feed 6 times daily and after work I do 75% water change. They are growing out nicely.

Are you aging your water Brandon?

Hope all works out for you.
Hey Jeff, I'm feeding 4-5 times daily flakes and FDBW. Two 90% daily. Using aged RO water. My other fish are acting normal. Mandi used some fly spray upstairHope all works out for you.[/QUOTE]s the other day so i was wondering if it could have been that. i told her not to do that and to go get some fly strips or use the swatter. lol
But yea it gets aged at least 6-12 hrs

[Trier20]

Sorry to hear of the losses in fry. Hope you can figure out what the problem might be. I enjoy following your threads.
Thanks Shaun. No worries we'll get this figured out. I'm still having fun. I love this hobby because you learn something everyday. When you think you know everything and stop learning is when you fail.

[Trier20]

+1 can you make a video

Josie i'll try to find the camcorder tonight and see if i can make something.

[Orange Crush]

Sorry to read about the little ones dying. I hope you can figure out what is going on. :(

[Trier20]

Thanks Holly! Started PP treatment last night. We're gonna nip whatever it is in the butt.

[Keith Perkins]

If nothing else, that should eliminate bacteria and flukes from the possibility list. Any more losses?

[shawnhu]

If nothing else, that should eliminate bacteria and flukes from the possibility list. Any more losses?

A single treatment of PP can't knock flukes out, only reduce their numbers before the new cysts hatch and latch on again.

Anyone know if PP is safe for fry so young?

[wanderingfish]

I'v ever tried 10ppm for 10 mins with great result.but water must be clean and there must be plenty of o2 in water. some weak ones could be die.

[wanderingfish]

could it be because of lack of o2?if i forgot to star filter after feeding,fry would be head standing near watersurface,gasping for o2.

edit:sorry,it's not headstanding.

[Keith Perkins]

A single treatment of PP can't knock flukes out, only reduce their numbers before the new cysts hatch and latch on again.

Anyone know if PP is safe for fry so young?

Myself, Jason K., and William Palumbo have all used PP on fry this age without serious problems. I say serious because as I've stated on other threads I did use 4 ppm one time and that did cause some temporary gill irritation. The fry recovered in a day or two, but I won't ever use more than 2 ppm on fish this age again.


I'v ever tried 10ppm for 10 mins with great result.but water must be clean and there must be plenty of o2 in water. some weak ones could be die.

This is definitely not the normally recommended treatment, at least not the couple I've seen.

Sorry Brandon, I think we're taking your thread astray. There's better places for this discussion.

[Trier20]

could it be because of lack of o2?if i forgot to star filter after feeding,fry would be head standing near watersurface,gasping for o2.

edit:sorry,it's not headstanding.
O2 is fine. filter and air stone are going at all times.

[Trier20]

If nothing else, that should eliminate bacteria and flukes from the possibility list. Any more losses?
I haven't had the chance to go home yet today to check. They seemed happier this morning. i did do a parameter check last night and there was a bit of ammonia in the water. my guess is from all the over feeding. 100% WC, nutracycle, and some prime when into the water last night. they seemed healthy this morning. i did have two down yesterday. both were heavily peppered. mandi has a pic on her phone i'll try to get her to upload.

[shawnhu]

I haven't had the chance to go home yet today to check. They seemed happier this morning. i did do a parameter check last night and there was a bit of ammonia in the water. my guess is from all the over feeding. 100% WC, nutracycle, and some prime when into the water last night. they seemed healthy this morning. i did have two down yesterday. both were heavily peppered. mandi has a pic on her phone i'll try to get her to upload.

Brandon, what's the ph at btw?

[Trier20]

Brandon, what's the ph at btw?
no clue api test doesn't go that high

[shawnhu]

no clue api test doesn't go that high

Any trace of ammonia in high ph like yours will be lethal. Use prime to neutralize ammonia for 24 hours at a time. I'm guessing after the feedings, the ammonia spikes as they digest and takes out a few weaker ones. They may be outgrowing their tank.

[Trier20]

Any trace of ammonia in high ph like yours will be lethal. Use prime to neutralize ammonia for 24 hours at a time. I'm guessing after the feedings, the ammonia spikes as they digest and takes out a few weaker ones. They may be outgrowing their tank.

Started adding prime again last night. so we'll see tonight when I get home how effective it was.

[shawnhu]

Does RO water sap the carbonate hardness out of the water? If so, your ph should be at 7.

[Trier20]

Does RO water sap the carbonate hardness out of the water? If so, your ph should be at 7.

I havent tested gh and kh. I just aged with aeration and she's still off the meter. Damn water company. It used to be around 7.8 then they did some main work near our house and since then the ph has been outrageous. So we do what we can. Live and learn.

[shawnhu]

I havent tested gh and kh. I just aged with aeration and she's still off the meter. Damn water company. It used to be around 7.8 then they did some main work near our house and since then the ph has been outrageous. So we do what we can. Live and learn.

If you have a kit, you should test for kh, as it directly affects ph.

[Trier20]

Lost 5 in the last few days. four yesterday and one the day before. I remembered the sponge filter in the had meth blue in it so i'm guessing that is what is making the parameters funky. i took out that sponge and replaced it with another from a different tank. So far so good. hope that solves it. Can you just throw that sponge in the microwave to reverse the affects of the meth blue or should i just toss it?

[nc0gnet0]

rinse squeeze rinse squeeze..........

[Orange Crush]

Damn water company. It used to be around 7.8 then they did some main work near our house and since then the ph has been outrageous.
I had the pipes at my condo complex worked on earlier this year and it really messed with the water. It was brown toxic goo for a day so, I waited a couple of days before I did another water change. Even so, the new water almost killed at least one of my fish. I wonder if they used some toxic chem in the pipework near your house that the fry are reacting to.

[rdiscus]

Can you just throw that sponge in the microwave to reverse the affects of the meth blue or should i just toss it?
warm hot water ... will kill everything in it :)

[Keith Perkins]

rinse squeeze rinse squeeze..........

I'm with Rick, really going out on a limb there. :) I wouldn't think residual MB in a sponge would cause any issues.

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Hope all is better Brandon, shame to lose more juvies.

On a side note, if you are going to be using 100% RO water, there is no need to (from what I read in previous posts) to aerate the water, just keep it circulating with a small pump. Aeration can cause your RO water PH to rise and maybe you are getting an imbalance from that. But maybe a better water expert can shed more light on that.

[Trier20]

I'm with Rick, really going out on a limb there. :) I wouldn't think residual MB in a sponge would cause any issues.

My thoughts were since meth blue effects the bio bacteria in the filter it would cause cycles or mini cycles to keep happening..yes...no?

[Trier20]

Hope all is better Brandon, shame to lose more juvies.

On a side note, if you are going to be using 100% RO water, there is no need to (from what I read in previous posts) to aerate the water, just keep it circulating with a small pump. Aeration can cause your RO water PH to rise and maybe you are getting an imbalance from that. But maybe a better water expert can shed more light on that.

I'll see if shutting those off will work.

[Keith Perkins]

My thoughts were since meth blue effects the bio bacteria in the filter it would cause cycles or mini cycles to keep happening..yes...no?

I leave that for an expert. I just treated that tank of mine where the air pump failed with MB repeated and didn't see cycles or mini cycles, but then again my tank probably doesn't have the population of fish yours does either.

[Trier20]

So I haven't lost one for a couple days since I switched filters. Hopefully that has corrected the problem. I have chose my final eight, since that is what I'm down to. May the strong survive! My only worry now is going on a trip to mineral point Wisconsin for a wedding this weekend. I have a friend who is really wanting to start into discus taking care of them for me. This will be a good chance for him to see if he really wants them. He's been fortunate enough to be at my place a few times for the " ok ya want to drink beer?..... You'll have to help with wcs." he has done well and I trust him. So let's hope none die this weekend!

[Trier20]

Ok took a picture of my "Bubba" as Skip refers to his. Hope I'm not crossing any copyright infringements lol 5 weeks from free swimming now.75688
He just happened to flop over onto the quarter right before I took the picture. Seem to be growing pretty well.

[Keith Perkins]

That's one way to prove how nice and round they are I guess. Looking good Brandon.

[Eddie]

Thats good growth for 5 weeks! Nice work!

[Trier20]

Thanks guys

[shawnhu]

Definitely good growth and shape. Keep up the good work.

[shoveltrash]

nice fry!!!

[Trier20]

nice fry!!!

Thanks Trish I appreciate it!

[Trier20]

Update: Temp 84.4 ammonia 0 nitrate 5 everyone seems to be happy campers now. One or two still have some peppering. I have noticed that our water pressure coming to my RO has dropped about 40 psi which is no good. I'm barely getting 70 gallons now. Looks like I'm going to have to find a booster now. Back to fry. I still have the seven left and they seem to be growing alright. Two of them are definitely succeeding better than the other 5. Let's hope they stay on schedule!

[Orange Crush]

Glad to hear they are doing well. How about some new pics. I would love to see them.

[Trier20]

Ok here is a new pic of my big one tonight. My two large one are both approx this size. Don't laugh at what using to show size. And yes I rinsed it off before i drank it :)
75916

[Trier20]

Oh I changed a some things this week. They are now off the auto feeder and getting three feedings a day. Also they are on aged tap water with a TDS of 162.

[Second Hand Pat]

Brandon, is that a can lid? lol.

[Trier20]

Lol beer can ;)

[Keith Perkins]

Oh heck, no need to clean it off. The alcohol will kill anything bad the fish leaves behind, right?

[Trier20]

Oh heck, no need to clean it off. The alcohol will kill anything bad the fish leaves behind, right?

I was more worried about the taste

[Keith Perkins]

Why, what kind of beer was it?

[Floppy Fin's]

Thumbs up Brandon.. Good job...
BTW.. I now have 3 pairs of the Pidgeon's and almost 2 pairs in the blues tank.
More spawns than I can handle at present... Discus Hans sells great fish stocks.. :-)
Floppy Fins

[Trier20]

Why, what kind of beer was it?

The expensive Busch light lmao. Ik it tastes like crap but I didn't feel like having the taste of black worm water in my beer. Now If it was a blatz you would've never tasted that lol

[Keith Perkins]

Even with Busch light the black worm water probably would have improved the taste.

[Second Hand Pat]

Even with Busch light the black worm water probably would have improved the taste.

Ditto

[Trier20]

Even with Busch light the black worm water probably would have improved the taste.

The good stuff doesn't go down stairs while i'm working

[Keith Perkins]

The good stuff doesn't go down stairs while i'm working

What fun is that???

[Trier20]

What fun is that???

Glass bottles and moving around a lot and quickly doesn't go well together.

[Trier20]

lost one more the other day. now down to 6 I believe. not at home right now to count.

[1oscar]

congrats on the spawn

[Trier20]

75971
This was from last night. I felt like a zombie after work so I didn't post then. The six are all still doing alright. I have the two big ones and the other 4 are just there for moral support anymore. There is no chance in them being able to be judged at the end of the year. Hopefully nothing goes wrong with either two :/

[Second Hand Pat]

Hold the course Brandon, these guys could surprise you yet.

[Trier20]

Hold the course Brandon, these guys could surprise you yet.

Now way Pat. There is a reason they are never in a picture. Lol they might be a TL of quarter size now and heavily peppered and just not happy. I kinda feel bad about doing this and separating the group. Lost what now 25 :( found the one dead that went into the bucket doing WCs last night. If I had a spare ten gallon they would be going in there. That 20 is much too large for that "group" now. A fun exciting thing has definitely turned to a disappointing adventure. Lol bright side is that their siblings next to them are growing like weeds! I think that is what is depressing. I have lost maybe two total out of that tank and 25 out of my contest tank. It's a bummer.

[Eddie]

Don't give up just yet...you never know how things can turn out. Grow them puppies out, not just for the competition but for yourself. ;)

[shawnhu]

Keep your head up Brandon, it's tough bit it's a learning experience, and nothing in life comes easy.

[Trier20]

Thanks Eddie and Shawn. I just keep thinking this is a learning experience for me and everyone paying attention to the contest. Lesson one: make sure filters are completely cycled. 98% cycled will still kill small buggers. Lesson two: don't go away for a day and not change water. This will also kill weak ones it seems. Last two I've lost has been after I've been gone for the day. Bright side their siblings are doing great. They should be ready to start leaving here soon. Hopefully people will want some of these guys!

[Trier20]

Well we are now down to the last two big ones. i'm thinking about transfering them into a ten gallon maybe....we'll see...I think i'm going to be doing this the absolute way you are not supposed to. So from this I hope we may be able to see that we don't need a group of 6 or more when we grow fish. I just did it with 3 blues I picked up and they grew out nice. They got moved to the big house so I could move the contest fish's brothers and sisters into their old tank. hopefully these way will work again with these guys!

[Kingdom Come Discus]

I wish you the best of luck!!!!

[Trier20]

I wish you the best of luck!!!!

Thanks Kraig! I'm pretty much out of it. One of my last two fish has some sort of mutation or lack of growth. I'll post a picture later. Any input on why this happened would be incouraged as I've noticed I have a few that look like this.

[Second Hand Pat]

Brandon, you have had the worst of luck. Really sorry to hear this.
Pat

[rdiscus]

Sorry to hear that you're pretty much out luck, Brandon

[Trier20]

Pat and Ryan it's been rough on these guys. Hell I'm just thrilled I have two left. The other half of that spawn is doing great......lol

[Trier20]

http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s422/trier20/discus/preview_image_0_49439712x.jpg

This is the goofy looking guy I talked about before. Is there outgrowing this or is he screwed for life?

[Second Hand Pat]

Brandon, this is the odd one you were referring too?

[Trier20]

yup

[Keith Perkins]

I haven't seen that before Brandon, fortunately. I'm betting the big boys around here are familiar with it though. If I had to bet I'd go with that it's permanent. Strange looking for sure, and most unfortunate.

[Trier20]

I haven't seen that before Brandon, fortunately. I'm betting the big boys around here are familiar with it though. If I had to bet I'd go with that it's permanent. Strange looking for sure, and most unfortunate.

He's an odd duck for sure! Thanks for looking though!

[DiscusDrew]

Hmmm, I need to spend more time going through the rest of your thread Brandon. I want to see what you did from start to finish and I appologize but I havent been watching just because I havent had the time to watch the whole process. Until then though, PM sent with my initial assessment of that guy. Tomorrow Ill review all the info you have provided from the get go and we can take it from there.

[Trier20]

I will give it a day or so before I do this for real. As of now one of my fish is a cull. So that puts me at not having a shot to win this so I would have to withdrawl from the competition. If there is any interest in seeing how having two in a tank together rather than a larger group would grow out I would be more than happy to do this. If there is no interest I will save my time and energy and cull the one and throw the other back in with his brothers and sisters. Thanks.

[Trier20]

Since there was no interest as of today I am withdrawing from the competition. I learned a few things which is good. So everything wasn't lost. I will keep a couple of the ones that have those deformities to see how they grow out and report at the end of this contest.

[Second Hand Pat]

Sorry to hear Brandon. Not sure it is worth growing two out for curiosity sake but cool you were willing to go for it.
Pat

[Trier20]

They are currently in with the rest of the fry so I'm not doing more work just two more mouths to feed

[Eddie]

Sorry to hear and it is great you've learned something. Its always great to take something away to apply it in the future. All the best!

[Trier20]

Sorry to hear and it is great you've learned something. Its always great to take something away to apply it in the future. All the best!

I'm over it lol those two weeks I was losi all those fry were the most difficult. I was in a hurry to get my 30fry picked out. I think if I would have waited another week or two like a few others did then I wouldn't have had the great die off. Lessons are learned and we move on. I'm a better discus keeper because of this.

[nc0gnet0]

Sorry to hear this, why don't you show us the other ones that didn't go through this, curious to see them.

Rick

[shoveltrash]

Sorry to hear this, why don't you show us the other ones that didn't go through this, curious to see them.

Rick+1

[Trier20]

Ok I'll try to get a video with my phone on Sunday. Being slightly intoxicated tonight and will be at a wedding tomorrow night I won't have time or be able to function to take one. Lol

[Trier20]

I lied! here is your video update for the others. they are 11 weeks now.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=plcp&v=asePIdzFQDA

[nc0gnet0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=plcp&v=asePIdzFQDA


I couldn't get your link to load so I took the liberty of adjusting it so it would....hope that's ok. I am seeing quite a few with short gill plates. Can I ask what your water parameters are? Reason I ask is this could be indicative of your water being too soft (not enough calcium).

Rick

[Trier20]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=plcp&v=asePIdzFQDA


I couldn't get your link to load so I took the liberty of adjusting it so it would....hope that's ok. I am seeing quite a few with short gill plates. Can I ask what your water parameters are? Reason I ask is this could be indicative of your water being too soft (not enough calcium).

Rick

Yea I have that problem fixed for next time. I had just gotten an RO unit then and was excited about using so for the first 1.5 months they were in straight RO. That was lesson two I learned. Next time once free swimming were going into aged tape water. Tds on that is ~230-260.

[Keith Perkins]

Yea I have that problem fixed for next time. I had just gotten an RO unit then and was excited about using so for the first 1.5 months they were in straight RO. That was lesson two I learned. Next time once free swimming were going into aged tape water. Tds on that is ~230-260.

Ouch, wish I'd been cognizant of that I surely would have said something quickly. I'm sure now though it's a lesson you'll never forget, at least if you're anything like me. Seems like the hard lessons learned first hand are always the ones I remember best.

[Trier20]

Ouch, wish I'd been cognizant of that I surely would have said something quickly. I'm sure now though it's a lesson you'll never forget, at least if you're anything like me. Seems like the hard lessons learned first hand are always the ones I remember best.

I'm a guy who seems to have to learn everything the hard way first. That said this mistake WON'T be made again. It wasn't your job to let me know Keith lol there are a few in there that seem to be not affected by the low mineral content. I will keep some and sell the others

[Disgirl]

Brandon, keep your chin up! This contest is a learning experience for all of us, not just you contestants. Try again.
Barb

[nc0gnet0]

Look at it thsi way Brandon, as much, if not more, is learned from our failures than that of our success's. This information will serve to be valuable for many. I do have a question, did you have any die-offs/sickness in the tank containing your non-contest fish?

Rick

[Trier20]

Look at it thsi way Brandon, as much, if not more, is learned from our failures than that of our success's. This information will serve to be valuable for many. I do have a question, did you have any die-offs/sickness in the tank containing your non-contest fish?

Rick

I had one die with some funky gill issue. Had a short one a one side and a pretty non existent on the other. Other than that I had no deaths.

[Trier20]

Brandon, keep your chin up! This contest is a learning experience for all of us, not just you contestants. Try again.
Barb

We're gonna try again as soon as the pair decides not to eat their eggs. Next round will be caged until free swimming

[Trier20]

Every last one of this spawn in gone now. Sold the last 18 yesterday!

[Second Hand Pat]

Are you sad?

[Trier20]

You know what Pat? It was definitely different not cleaning their tank last night. honestly i was kinda sad but i needed the money sold 18 of them for 200. gave the guy a deal(first customer) so hopefully I will get a good review

[rdiscus]

You sold your contest fish?

[Trier20]

You sold your contest fish?

No Ryan those all died from the filter not being cycled completely. I then found out my tap water had an ammonia content of 2ppm. wonderwhy they died off so fast. i thought I had to choose my 30 and rushed and ended in catastrophe. This was their brothers and sisters. The fish room isn't the same. Now I'm giving the pair pep talks again so I can have more and do it right this time.

[nc0gnet0]

You didn't sell the ones with short gill plates did you?

Rick

[Trier20]

You didn't sell the ones with short gill plates did you?

Rick

No I culled those.

[Alfredo Llecha]

.... I am seeing quite a few with short gill plates. Can I ask what your water parameters are? Reason I ask is this could be indicative of your water being too soft (not enough calcium).

Rick

Or not enough Calcium AND Phosphorous in the feed... too many FDBW..

I read the whole thread, sorry for your loses. Despite the issue with the ammonia, you have had some bacterial/protozoa infection and treated with PP. Ammonia and bacteria are related. Peak of ammonia boosts the microrganisms present in the water, that is the reason for doing WC. You could not realize that the filter sponge wasnt working. Your first PP treatment killed almost all the microrganisms, but the ammonia was still present. Then you used Prime to neutralize it, really the job was done by the Formaldehyde Sodium Bisulfite part, but Prime has another compounds, mainly Sodium Chloride that discus can barely tolerate, in fact salt is an anaesthesic for them (myorelaxant), so the rhythm of its breath slows down --> lack of oxygen in the blood --> presence of ammonia --> metabolic acidosis --> remediless death (if you didnt have an oxygen tank by hand). Salt can be used for fish shipment (in fact it is), but the bags are filled up with pure oxygen, so the fish can take enough oxygen even if its breathing rate is low... but salt cant be used in a tank at 88F.

Hope it helps.

[Trier20]

Or not enough Calcium AND Phosphorous in the feed... too many FDBW..

I read the whole thread, sorry for your loses. Despite the issue with the ammonia, you have had some bacterial/protozoa infection and treated with PP. Ammonia and bacteria are related. Peak of ammonia boosts the microrganisms present in the water, that is the reason for doing WC. You could not realize that the filter sponge wasnt working. Your first PP treatment killed almost all the microrganisms, but the ammonia was still present. Then you used Prime to neutralize it, really the job was done by the Formaldehyde Sodium Bisulfite part, but Prime has another compounds, mainly Sodium Chloride that discus can barely tolerate, in fact salt is an anaesthesic for them (myorelaxant), so the rhythm of its breath slows down --> lack of oxygen in the blood --> presence of ammonia --> metabolic acidosis --> remediless death (if you didnt have an oxygen tank by hand). Salt can be used for fish shipment (in fact it is), but the bags are filled up with pure oxygen, so the fish can take enough oxygen even if its breathing rate is low... but salt cant be used in a tank at 88F.

Hope it helps.

Thanks Alfredo! I think we finally have this problem worked out. Through numerous conversations with people on here who helped. This forum is a really great place. I can't stress that enough! Next time I'll get it right. I really hope my experience will help other to not make the mistakes that I made during this contest. To all my discus family on here thanks for everything!

[nc0gnet0]

Or not enough Calcium AND Phosphorous in the feed... too many FDBW..

I have raised young fry off of an almost exclusive diet of FDBW and never had this issue, so I do not beleive this to be the case. But then again I am not sure what you mean. If your saying low calcium content in the water coupled with low calcium content in the feed then maybe, but if your saying too many FDBW's regardless of water content (in regards to calcium and trace elements) then I can say conclusively that is not the case. It's just much easier to monitor Calcium levels in water than it is in the feed.

I might also add that in regards to the levels of Calcium+ in the water, there is a point of diminishing returns. While water that is too soft can be a major factor, it doesn't take a lot to grow healthy fry. In other words, once you hit a certain point, adding more does nothing and is not neccesarily better. For instance, with my water I know that if I raise fry in straight RO that measures in the neighborhood of 30 TDS, I can get a very high rate of short gill plates and very "beaky" looking fish, but by simply raising this level to 60-70 TDS, all these issues disapear. Raising the levels further has little to no impact on growth or rate of deformity.


Despite the issue with the ammonia, you have had some bacterial/protozoa infection and treated with PP. Ammonia and bacteria are related. Peak of ammonia boosts the microrganisms present in the water, that is the reason for doing WC. You could not realize that the filter sponge wasnt working. Your first PP treatment killed almost all the microrganisms, but the ammonia was still present.


Quite possibly true as well, although it takes quite of bit of PP to kill off a mature sponge filter. The filter can usually "bounce back" with little or no issues, and is a little less suspectable to total die off then other filters like a HOB, but it can happen. If you have low PH levels (often the case with straight RO) it can effect the rate of miosis and retard how fast the beneficial bacteria can bounce back. If your neutralizing the PP with hydrogen peroxide you have to be aware that H202 can nuke a filter too.


Then you used Prime to neutralize it, really the job was done by the Formaldehyde Sodium Bisulfite part, but Prime has another compounds, mainly Sodium Chloride that discus can barely tolerate, in fact salt is an anaesthesic for them (myorelaxant), so the rhythm of its breath slows down --> lack of oxygen in the blood --> presence of ammonia --> metabolic acidosis --> remediless death (if you didnt have an oxygen tank by hand). Salt can be used for fish shipment (in fact it is), but the bags are filled up with pure oxygen, so the fish can take enough oxygen even if its breathing rate is low... but salt cant be used in a tank at 88F.

I loved this part (ie: I agree). Several times I have argued with others regarding the use of salt when treating for gill/breathing issues. The popular misconception is that since salt lowers the breathing rate of fish, it is therefore making thier breathing easier. This is simply not the case. By using this misconception I could also summise that clove oil must also aid in breathing, as it too lowers the resperation rate, and we all know that isn't true.

Rick

[Keith Perkins]

Love the clove oil analogy Rick, not often I smile before 8 AM.

And Brandon, it's only a matter of time before you're constantly changing water on little ones. Hang in there.

[Alfredo Llecha]

I have raised young fry off of an almost exclusive diet of FDBW and never had this issue, so I do not beleive this to be the case. But then again I am not sure what you mean. If your saying low calcium content in the water coupled with low calcium content in the feed then maybe, but if your saying too many FDBW's regardless of water content (in regards to calcium and trace elements) then I can say conclusively that is not the case. It's just much easier to monitor Calcium levels in water than it is in the feed.

I might also add that in regards to the levels of Calcium+ in the water, there is a point of diminishing returns. While water that is too soft can be a major factor, it doesn't take a lot to grow healthy fry. In other words, once you hit a certain point, adding more does nothing and is not neccesarily better. For instance, with my water I know that if I raise fry in straight RO that measures in the neighborhood of 30 TDS, I can get a very high rate of short gill plates and very "beaky" looking fish, but by simply raising this level to 60-70 TDS, all these issues disapear. Raising the levels further has little to no impact on growth or rate of deformity.



We both are right. The fishes can take Calcium from water, also the fry grows up more rapidly in soft water than in hard water (despite the ratio of shorted gill plates fish). Taking Amazon river as sample, the wild discus should be "shorted gill pates" but they arent. SO they must to take calcium from the feed. Aquatic or terrestrial Arthropods species have a high content of calcium, but black worms are not Arthropods. Also the animals need Phosphorous to build up its skeleton properly. The problem of the Calcium in feed, it is not well metabolized/absorbed as Calcium ion, it should be binded to organic molecules. The Phosphorous is available everywhere and easy to metabolize.




Quite possibly true as well, although it takes quite of bit of PP to kill off a mature sponge filter. The filter can usually "bounce back" with little or no issues, and is a little less suspectable to total die off then other filters like a HOB, but it can happen. If you have low PH levels (often the case with straight RO) it can effect the rate of miosis and retard how fast the beneficial bacteria can bounce back. If your neutralizing the PP with hydrogen peroxide you have to be aware that H202 can nuke a filter too.



I Agree but H2O2 is beneficial for the nitrifying bateria in right dose.




I loved this part (ie: I agree). Several times I have argued with others regarding the use of salt when treating for gill/breathing issues. The popular misconception is that since salt lowers the breathing rate of fish, it is therefore making thier breathing easier. This is simply not the case. By using this misconception I could also summise that clove oil must also aid in breathing, as it too lowers the resperation rate, and we all know that isn't true.

Rick

Yes, it is true, the fishes seem to breath easy if you add some salt in the water, but in fact they are suffering acidosis and you will end up with unexpected mortality and weird behavior. Raising up temperature and using salt is a killer coctel. Salt MUST to be used in presence of O2, ie: inside sealed bags.

[Trier20]

Love the clove oil analogy Rick, not often I smile before 8 AM.

And Brandon, it's only a matter of time before you're constantly changing water on little ones. Hang in there.

Keith we still need to have our meeting...of drinking beer!

[Keith Perkins]

Indeed Brandon.

[Trier20]

Indeed Brandon.
I will try to talk Mandi into a trip to see her sis and then we can have our top secret discus club meeting I mean artisan beer discussion. Bill can come if he has time too I guess. I'll try to find a weekend

[xKevinx]

Ouch, wish I'd been cognizant of that I surely would have said something quickly. I'm sure now though it's a lesson you'll never forget, at least if you're anything like me. Seems like the hard lessons learned first hand are always the ones I remember best.
+1

[Trier20]

Withdrew about 5 months ago. Please move this thread to the withdrawn section. Thank you!