I'm freaking out a bit now...

[chipmunk636]

Ok its been now 2 weeks a bought my discus and it didn't go like expected , I bought 1 pigeon blood at 3" , 1 golden chekerbord at also 3" and 2 super erruption at 2", 4-5 days later a bought 2 others pigeons( 2.5") because you suggested me to add more to reduce agression , now its been a solid 2 weeks and one super erruption as turned black and is paper like slim , the other SP is also not eating but color look ok and the 2 smaller pigeon has not eaten much and are super slim BUT they now eat the little residu i feed them tetra color 5-6 times a day and i have to crush them a bit to make the small pigeon eat .

The main reason that i see is the chekerboard is bullying every one who is going to eat , the biggest pigeon is super calm and only respond when the chekerboard attack ,all other fish are calm , i don't know if they do this all day long but they seems calm when i show up and after couples of minutes after feeding he start bullying , like theire's not enough food for everyone ??

some spec : -55 gal ,fluval 405 ,sponge on intake , 84 * temp , t5ho for 6 hr for the 7-8 small live plant ,air pump bubble , need to get another test kit so no param , but 25% wc every 2-3 days ,2"substrate and some rocks, i feed tetra color 5-6 times a day and vacuum the left over.



any help and suggestion is appreciated , i have another 55 gal in case i can use it .

thank you !

[lazurux]

You only feed Tetra Color? Water change should be daily 50%. More variety, Freeze dried black worms; Beefheart; Flake food(Your choice "check ingredients"); live (with caution);many more choices. I have my lights on 10 hours a day. Bullying is natural, they are setting a hierarchy; but it can also change. Sorry gotta go, hope that helped a little.

[DiscusDrew]

You need to fill out the whole questionaire, including water perameters, in the disease section and post a new thread. Then myself and others that frequent that forum can give you solid advice and some steps to take to settle out that tank. It may involve culling if you have a black fish and you should try if possible to post a picture of him in the new thread. I will help you as much as possible but SO much of this hobby and discus is the importance of GOOD QUALITY STOCK to start with, it can make the difference between loving this hobby and having nothing but problems. That said, it sounds like some fish are suffering pretty badly, probably worms, probably flaggelates, and probably a suffering immune system. So PLEASE start that thread and like I said myself and others would be happy to help you.

[chipmunk636]

Thanks

I will as soon as i wil get a test kit but that involve 2-3 day...I worked 12 hr today and 16 tomorrow , i do not expect the black one to make it , my priority it to make the 2 smallest pigeon and the little errution survive .


http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s519/flatspin636/005.jpg

the chekerboard left and biggest pigeon and the 2 erruption same colors
http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s519/flatspin636/001-3.jpg

couples day ago
http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s519/flatspin636/003-1.jpg

http://i1055.photobucket.com/albums/s519/flatspin636/001-2.jpg

I forgot to add , that i have 20's rasboras in there and i switched from flourite to white sand to reduce peppering .

my error i think was to buy the cheapest wich was the smallest of the tank , should have paid a little more to get better one , or even best from the sponsor here .

and yes i need to get to the local fish store asap to get more food !

[DiscusDrew]

Yeah there's a lot of stunting in that tank which already puts you a step behind the power curve. That said I'd most likely cull the eruption that is obviously suffering from a severe parasite and most likely will not recover. Its in the best interest of the other fish to do so in my opinion, or at least get him out of that tank, there you could try to help him if you want to spend the money. I suspect you have a severe flagellate infestation, but I can not recommend a course of treatment until the questionnaire is filled out. So for now, huge daily water changes, 50% or more and preferably with aged and airated water. Tank looks pretty clean so not too much of a concern there but stay on top of tank wipes. The lower you can keep the biological pressure on the fish the better off they will be for it. Their immune systems seem to be suffering immensely and there's no way for them to overcome their problems unless that changes. You can't change the bullying too much, its part of them being teenagers so to speak. I do believe they need to be medicated honestly but like I said, I will personally never recommend anything other than the basics without all the info on the questionnaire.

[a volar]

Also having substrate doesn't help..........

[Orange Crush]

So for now, huge daily water changes, 50% or more and preferably with aged and airated water. Tank looks pretty clean so not too much of a concern there but stay on top of tank wipes.
+1

[aquaworks1]

Sometimes a little salt can help,it helps the fish maintain its osmotic balance,it also helps with electrolytes.You could also try raising your Temperature above 90 Degrees.Also get an all Purpose Medication.

[shawnhu]

Also having substrate doesn't help..........

Lol. Substrate makes discus sick and stunted? Wow.

[shawnhu]

Most cases, internal parasites is the cause of them looking like swimming skeletons. You can treat by deworming them with a flake from I think angelfish flakes. They make tons of fish flakes, even medicated ones. The other treatment that you may need is a metro treatment, which would require much more research on your part. If you have questions, make sure you fill out the questionnaire.

Good luck, that eruption doesn't look like it needs to be culled.

[DiscusDrew]

I disagree entirely but I keep my breeding stock to a very high standard so like I said, debatable. Anyways, do NOT raise the temp in the tank, I can guarantee the flaggelates have a secondary bacterial infection going by now and often times that can overcome the catastrophe of the flaggelates themselves. Worms take a back burner and I can guarantee that is not the PRIMARY problem here but I can also darn near guarantee that you do have either trematodes or nematodes in the emmaciated fish. SO fill out the questionaire PLEASE!!!! I wanna help but I just cant give you a course of treatment without knowing everything possible, I can not be responsible for anything bad happening because of lack of information.

[chipmunk636]

The blacked one passed away , i went to the lfs and got some flake food and bloodworms and they seem to like bloodworms more ! , They all eat , the little erruption even took 2-3 pieces , i need to feed them the more possible , as for the quest. thing , do you have a test kit to suggest me , here in local store price are ridiculous a bit and don't have much stuff.

I have added a spoon of salt and a 25% wc last morning and i will do another one now .

[Orange Crush]

The blacked one passed away , i went to the lfs and got some flake food and bloodworms and they seem to like bloodworms more ! , They all eat , the little erruption even took 2-3 pieces , i need to feed them the more possible , as for the quest. thing , do you have a test kit to suggest me , here in local store price are ridiculous a bit and don't have much stuff.
I have added a spoon of salt and a 25% wc last morning and i will do another one now .
-Sorry that you lost one. :(
-Be careful with the bloodworms, they are like crack to fish. Once they start eating those regularly it is hard to get them to eat anything else and they need to eat a variety of things to be healthy.
-API makes a great test kit for many different things. You can get it from many places online. Stay away from test strips, they are notouriously inaccurate.
-I do not think salt will do anything for your fish. It is best not to add anything to your tank until you know what the problem is. Why don't you fill out the disease questionare so we can recommend the appropriate way to help your discus. http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?38545-Disease-Questionnaire-please-complete
-Also, do large daily water changes. It will strengthen their immune system and remove some of the nasties in your water.

[shoveltrash]

sorry to hear about your loss.........


big water changes are your friend! and I mean >75%. when/if I suspect any problems, I change a LOT of water (aged & aerated).
I'm no expert, but so far this seems to be the #1 issue in disease threads (imho).

as for food, I highly recommend freeze dried blackworms. Al (aquaticsuppliers.com) and Dan both sell them. my fish attack them like crack!!! much more nutrition value vs bloodworms. and even though a liquid test kit may seem expensive, it is INVALUABLE, a definite need-to-have item.

[Orange Crush]

sorry to hear about your loss.........


big water changes are your friend! and I mean >75%. when/if I suspect any problems, I change a LOT of water (aged & aerated).
I'm no expert, but so far this seems to be the #1 issue in disease threads (imho).

as for food, I highly recommend freeze dried blackworms. Al (aquaticsuppliers.com) and Dan both sell them. my fish attack them like crack!!! much more nutrition value vs bloodworms. and even though a liquid test kit may seem expensive, it is INVALUABLE, a definite need-to-have item.+1

[shawnhu]

Doctors foster and smith has the deluxe test kit for around 20, which is a great price. Like OC has stated, stick with the liquid tests.

Purchase 50 or more and the $5 shipping is waived.

[chipmunk636]

I just came back from work and fed them a complete square of bloodworms and they all eated it , the erruption not much , maybe 2-3 worms, he seems scared because he is much smaller ,but i see small progress, he start to swim to the food instead of staying at his spot during the feeding , all other fish seem better and eat!

I will altern the food , if you have link of the food you are talking about and the test kit it would help me a lot , i speak french and not much used to the discus world , so search is complecated sometimes..

When you say aged water , do you just let your tap water in a bucket for couples of hour with airation in or still add dechloriner product , because at 50 % the price may go up a bit !

Thanks for the helps everyone , look like we have good support on this forum !:)

[Kal-El]

I just came back from work and fed them a complete square of bloodworms and they all eated it , the erruption not much , maybe 2-3 worms, he seems scared because he is much smaller ,but i see small progress, he start to swim to the food instead of staying at his spot during the feeding , all other fish seem better and eat!

I will altern the food , if you have link of the food you are talking about and the test kit it would help me a lot , i speak french and not much used to the discus world , so search is complecated sometimes..

When you say aged water , do you just let your tap water in a bucket for couples of hour with airation in or still add dechloriner product , because at 50 % the price may go up a bit !

Thanks for the helps everyone , look like we have good support on this forum !:)

Best place to get FDBW (Sponsor here). Price include shipping.

http://aquaticfoods.com/FreezeDriedBlackwormsMembers.html

For the test kit you can get it from Kensfish.com also sponsor here.

http://www.kensfish.com/moreinfo/api-fw-master-test-kit.html

[shawnhu]

Best place to get FDBW (Sponsor here). Price include shipping.

http://aquaticfoods.com/FreezeDriedBlackwormsMembers.html

For the test kit you can get it from Kensfish.com also sponsor here.

http://www.kensfish.com/moreinfo/api-fw-master-test-kit.html

Both great sponsors. You can reduce the cost of water treatment by using Prime. And if you so wished, you can further reduce the price even more by using Safe, dry form of Prime.

[a volar]

Lol. Substrate makes discus sick and stunted? Wow.

I said "substrate doesn't help" never said "makes discus sick and stunted"

WELL...... as you can read OP discus are from 2" to 3" size .. so you need a grow out tank right? ( I mean if you want a good results) and since when is a good idea to have 2" gravel in a grow out tank???

[chipmunk636]

Thanks !

The master test kit is cheap at 20$ but that really all i need ,ph and nitritres-nitrates?

For now at my lfs a pay 27.99 for 2 liters of Nutrafin Aquaplus water conditionner,wich is way cheaper than prime at my lfs , didn't chek online , but shipping to quebec canada is usually not cheap ...

The guys that sold me the fish is willing to make me a deal next time so that not that bad, he suggested me to start a 10 gal which i have and forgot to tell you , and put the erruption in there for 24h with airation and water from my 55gal , what do you think ?

[Orange Crush]

Thanks !

The master test kit is cheap at 20$ but that really all i need ,ph and nitritres-nitrates?

For now at my lfs a pay 27.99 for 2 liters of Nutrafin Aquaplus water conditionner,wich is way cheaper than prime at my lfs , didn't chek online , but shipping to quebec canada is usually not cheap ...

The guys that sold me the fish is willing to make me a deal next time so that not that bad, he suggested me to start a 10 gal which i have and forgot to tell you , and put the erruption in there for 24h with airation and water from my 55gal , what do you think ?
You need to test for ammonia as well.
Unless the Prime costs 5-10Xs as much then the Prime is still cheaper than the Nutrafin Aquaplus. You have to also look at how much you have to use with each use. Prime is 1mL/10 gallons.

[chipmunk636]

Well it was at least the double , like 20$ for a 500-1000 ml bottle, nutrafin last couples month for sure.

As for the test it , i tought it was more complex , because in the past with piranhas i was testing my water all the time in the beginning and never really see significant ammo and nitrite on established tanks, ph would be interesting tought .

[Orange Crush]

Well it was at least the double , like 20$ for a 500-1000 ml bottle, nutrafin last couples month for sure.

As for the test it , i tought it was more complex , because in the past with piranhas i was testing my water all the time in the beginning and never really see significant ammo and nitrite on established tanks, ph would be interesting tought .
If the Prime was double the cost it will still cost you less per use to use it. Lets say the purchase price of Prime is $20/100mL and the Nutrafin is $10/100mL. It will cost you $0.20/10 gallons to use Prime and $0.50/10 gallons to use Nutrafin.

[shawnhu]

Thanks !

The master test kit is cheap at 20$ but that really all i need ,ph and nitritres-nitrates?

For now at my lfs a pay 27.99 for 2 liters of Nutrafin Aquaplus water conditionner,wich is way cheaper than prime at my lfs , didn't chek online , but shipping to quebec canada is usually not cheap ...

The guys that sold me the fish is willing to make me a deal next time so that not that bad, he suggested me to start a 10 gal which i have and forgot to tell you , and put the erruption in there for 24h with airation and water from my 55gal , what do you think ?

The master test kit has ammonia, ph, ph high, nitrite, and nitrate. It's all you really need to know to keep fish alive. If you want in the future for breeding, kh, gh, and TDS meter.

As for Prime, it's the gold standard that we all use for a reason. It's your choice. 1ml/10 gallons is pretty good.

Separating the eruption might be a good idea, but how are you planning to filter that tank? Do you have established media?

[DiscusDrew]

Filtration not required with proper steps in quarantine/med/temp tanks. By proper steps I mean changing all the water at least once per day. Just throwing that out. I have to do it with fry on occasion and they are FAR more sensitive.

[DiscusDrew]

Ohhh and thus is why I called the fish a cull.

Also given the meds I would eventually most likely recommend for treatment it would actually be pointless and to your disadvantage to have good bio media in the tank, as the meds I would recommend (most likely if and when you fill out a questionnaire) will kill the bio media and only add additional crud (ammonia) to the water from the die off.

On the previous topic of substrate, volar was completely correct, it is to the OP a disadvantage. Does substrate cause stunting? No. Is it possible to keep a good healthy tank with substrate? Yes. However you need to know what the heck your doing to be successful, BB tanks are far easier and cleaner in general for a newer tank and people starting out in this hobby. It also makes the amount of variables in me recommending a medication go through the roof thus making it far tougher for us to diagnose and treat a problem effectively.

[chipmunk636]

I am keeping up with the wc , 1 do about 2 x 25% a day ,both after a feeding , i just setuped a T to the air pump to get airation in the bucket for couples of hour before dumping in the tank , they all eat well now , expect for the erruption .

[chipmunk636]

Well I will need to look at my lfs price , the food in the link is not cheap lol that like 10 times the price i pay for bloodworm , and the shipping is killing me on the master test kit .

[Skip]

I am keeping up with the wc , 1 do about 2 x 25% a day ,both after a feeding , i just setuped a T to the air pump to get airation in the bucket for couples of hour before dumping in the tank , they all eat well now , expect for the erruption .

so. why can't you up that to 50%?? twice a day or at least once a day.. ??

the cleaner the water the better..

[Orange Crush]

People love to buy inexpensive food for themselves, their fish and their pets but they forget that poor quality food, unbalanced diet, improper nutrition leads to the need for expensive meds and health problems. You end up spending about the same but at least with good food you avoid health issues.

[chipmunk636]

I have 4 buckets for now that i fill in the morning , 2 x 50 % will take too much time if i need to get the water aged couples of hours.
I forgot my frozen blood worms for 4-5 hours on my bed , does the food is still good to feed after refreezing ?

[Skip]

get a python hose .. buckets are so 2011!

or at least go to homedepot/lowes.. they have clear vinyl tubing.. get a hose attachment..

fill r up... drain them out..

[secuono]

I've had my frozen foods thaw out and I just refroze them, no one died or got sick from them...

[chipmunk636]

get a python hose .. buckets are so 2011!

or at least go to homedepot/lowes.. they have clear vinyl tubing.. get a hose attachment..

fill r up... drain them out..

Strait tap water and you add prime in the tank ?
My water source is on the floor below and hose must have 25-30ft i drain it by the window with a 10 ft hose , i let my bucket sit for couples of hrs with airation in it .

[Orange Crush]

Strait tap water and you add prime in the tank ?
It depends on your water. Have you compared the pH of the water when it 1st comes out of the tap and what the pH is after airating it for 24 hours (before it goes into the tank)? Aging your water for a couple of hours with airation will remove microbubbles but I do not think that it would remove enough of the CO2 in the water to see much of a pH change. It really needs to be aged for a day when you have a noticable pH difference.
Yes, you put the Prime (or Safe) into the tank just before you add the water.

[Skip]

I go str8 tap..

Havent measured ph in 2years

[shoveltrash]

People love to buy inexpensive food for themselves, their fish and their pets but they forget that poor quality food, unbalanced diet, improper nutrition leads to the need for expensive meds and health problems. You end up spending about the same but at least with good food you avoid health issues.+1
chipmunk636 while I realize that cost concerns are valid, successful Discus husbandry requires you to not cut corners when it comes to nutrition & water quality.

some people do not age their water, but it is good to at least test it as OC said. I did this & found that my water's pH changed 2 whole points after ageing/aeration for 12hrs! a big enough difference to have some impact on the fish imho. invest in an easier method of water changing, it is well worth it. I use a 55 gal barrel to age/aerate/heat, and a submerisble pump I picked up at Lowe's to pump the water into my tanks.

[chipmunk636]

Ok , i tought this could cause bacteria bloom , with so much wc, i have to admit it scare me a bit putting strait tap into a tank with 200$$ of fish ,i don't find it hard for now my method , i just drain by the window , fill up 3-4 buckets that i carry next to the tank , messing with a 30 ft hose and barrel and pump would not be better i think , i will look at my ph when i will get a test kit , if it doesn't change i will simply put the water after couples of minutes, it will save me the airation and multible heater thing.

[Orange Crush]

Ok , i thought this could cause bacteria bloom , with so much wc, i have to admit it scare me a bit putting strait tap into a tank with 200$$ of fish
A bacterial bloom means that the tank is not cycled but since that almost all of the BB that you need to prevent this is in the filters and substrate (if you have it) not the water, then changing 100% of the water daily is not going to cause any problems.
Many people put the water right into their tanks, just remember to add Prime or Safe (concentrated form of Prime - more cost effective) into the tank 1st.
Use a python, if you have little or no pH change. No need for a barrel, bucket or pump. You just attatch it to your faucet and put the other end into the tank. Flip the switch and water from tank drains into sink. when done make tap water at faucet the same temp as your tank water, add Prime/Safe to tank then flip the switch and clean tap water fills the tank. Much easier than buckets.
*I should add that aging water with airation for 24 hours is the best but many people do not have the capability to do this. If that is the case a python works great.

[chipmunk636]

The bacteria bloom i was reffering was more due to the fact that strait water with chlorine go into the tank , on my other 55gal if i do not add enough dechloriner the water get cloudy 1-2 day , anyway i always go safe on the discus tank by waiting a bit and make sure to put enough dechloriner , i will continu that way with the buckets and when i will get tired of that routine i will look into a python .

The PB are getter better everyday , only minimal peppering on the chekerboard and 1 PB ,less bullying also , the erruption still doesn't eat, i expect the worst for him , but in a certain way i see it as a lesson and will get better one next time .

I plan to get 2 others PB to replace my erruptions so more chance of pairing in the future, plus a prefer the look of PB.

[shawnhu]

If you've given up on the eruption, you should really cull him instead of waiting it out. If you decide to take action, I would start a strategy of meds sooner than later.

[Orange Crush]

The bacteria bloom i was reffering was more due to the fact that strait water with chlorine go into the tank , on my other 55gal if i do not add enough dechloriner the water get cloudy 1-2 day.
Chlorine kills your BB so then you do not have enough BB to keep the tank stable which is why you get a bloom. If you are adding the water untreated into the tank, whether by bucket or python, you should add enough Prime/Safe for the entire volume of the tank not just the amount of the new water being added. However, if you treat the water before you add it to the tank then you can just add enough dechlor for the water that is in the buckets.

[Chicago Discus]

Ok I just read that whole thread WOW was that all over the place LOL.....First I'm really sorry about your Discus that you lost. Lets get the tank in order before you start buying more fish and throwing them in without a proper quarantine. I cant remember how many gallons you said your tank was but anyway you can get a Brute garbage can from any local hardware store big enough to change 100% of your water if you choose. fill the tank up with water put a aquarium heater matching the temperature of the tank or slightly higher and a couple of air stones for aeration (you already aerate a bucket full so this wont be a stretch for you) and put prime or safe in the plastic can and let that sit for no less then 12 hours. don't worry about PH at this moment and start doing water changes at least 50% daily with the aged treated water and dim the lights a little using a screen, paper or whatever you have available, in a few days you will notice a big difference in their well being. You stated that you spent alot of money on fish and I agree thats why I'm trying to help so you don't loose anymore. As far as food goes just offer a large variety of foods don't just stick with one thing Discus can get very complacent with foods......This is just my opinion on this....hope it helps....josie

[Stuewart]

Lol at warlock.. :p
You definitely should get that test kit and give water parameters (pH, nitrate, nitrite, ammonia), go to the disease section of this forum, fill out the questionnaire as Drew stated many times. Thats where you'll get the most help.

[chipmunk636]

I will maybe this weekend , i will go purchase 2 other discus in the same trip , its a 2hour trip so i'm not going to often , the other erruption will die for sure in the next day , tank is 55 gal , i will stick with my 50% daily for now .

Just need to choose 2 nice PB next time and i should be ok , i don't think the tank is in cause to be honest , not lost any rasbora or cleaning crew so the problem was more the noob selection i think .

thanks all !

[chipmunk636]

Is adding more fish the only way to reduce bullying , some feeding its ok but just feed a complete square of bloodworm and they pretty much all eat well , the smallest PB is not getting a round belly like the others , the chekerboard charge him as soon as he see him grabbing food , just made a wc because i'm off this weekend i go to our summer house and i will maybe pick 2 others PB on the way home with the test kit , do you suggest me to add 2 or wait ?

thanks

[chipmunk636]

I just came back from my weekend with the api test kit and 2 new PB , last wc was 3 day ago, reading are: 0 ammo, 0 nitrites , 10-20 nitrates(took 3 test to be sure ), also tested my single piranhas tank to compare , nitrates about the same in 2 tanks, ph is high at 7.6 in the discus tank ( top on the test range )

the 2 fish was added to the tank 15 min ago and seem fine , one lost a bit of shade tough, i will feed tomorrow.

[Kal-El]

Discus may take weeks for it to show any signs of sickness. I hope your risk of not QT will not cost you more issue in a few weeks.

[chipmunk636]

I never do that in the past with any fish , I need to sell my piranhas to get my other 55 free, but i don't really understand to be honest what's the difference in putting the fish in another tank for a month or strait in my tank, other than more stress and change to adapt to?

the ph is ok or should i mess with it at 7.6+?

thanks

[Orange Crush]

I never do that in the past with any fish , I need to sell my piranhas to get my other 55 free, but i don't really understand to be honest what's the difference in putting the fish in another tank for a month or strait in my tank, other than more stress and change to adapt to?

the ph is ok or should i mess with it at 7.6+?

thanks
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?25663-Quarantine
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?25678-Wanted-Quarantine-guidelines-for-hobbyists
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?35691-Quarantine-Treatments
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?37195-quarentine

Your pH is great, do not mess with it.
It sounds to me like you should do some more reading in the beginners section (the "stickies") so that you can avoid some potentially costly/deadly mistakes.

[chipmunk636]

Thanks !

It could be possible to do when i will get my piranhas in the future , for now i added a little salt .