Batch 4 Tefe x F1 (ARSG x VR)

[nc0gnet0]

This pair has been giving me fits, but they finally got a small batch (30-50) to attach this go around. Attached early Monday morning.

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/tefefry.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/tefefry2.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/tefefry3.jpg

Nada show Tefe from Hans and one of my f1's (albino red spotted green x virgin red)

[bluefame]

Beautiful pair you got there! Good luck.

[Rummy]

They are beautiful. I hope for the best.

[ZX10R]

Dang Rick how many breeding pairs of fish do you own?

Nice fish love that Tefe

[cjr8420]

congrats nice to see they figured it out

[nc0gnet0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=tkN7ZF9b6dA#t=15s


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=jwDbhgU5Hm0#t=5s


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mY2y7ff6e38#t=6s

[Rummy]

Gorgeous! I don't know which one I like more. They are both stunning.

[nc0gnet0]

This pairs version of the fry pass:




http://youtu.be/91eItfj4W-E

Needs a little work.....

[Eddie]

That f1 is super nice! Beautiful fish!

[nc0gnet0]

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/tefewk2-1.jpg
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/tefewk2-2-1.jpg
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/tefewk2-3-1.jpg

[MKD]

Holly Cow!!! i question myself are those real? really nice i wish they re in my tank.

[a volar]

Nice fish Rick, how good are those thermometers?, the one in those pictures.

[nc0gnet0]

Trying to get all my updates so they come due on the same day ;)

Latest picture:

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/100_0229.jpg

Currently getting fed BBS 4 times a day. Feedings are typically at 6:30 am, 4:15 pm, 7:30 pm, and 11:00 pm. Two 50-60 % water changes a day, one at 5:15 pm and one at 11:00 pm. Water change amount will increase to 80% when I begin with solid foods. I have one HOB filter and one sponge filter in the tank. temperature is set to 82.5. I use 100 % RO water with just enough RO waste water to bring my TDS up to around 70 ppm. PH is typically at or about 7.6-7.8, but I honestly don't monitor this much at all.

[nc0gnet0]

Nice fish Rick, how good are those thermometers?, the one in those pictures

I love them, big and easy to read from across the room, fairly accurate (much much more so than the POS coral life digitals) and no probe to contend with in the water.

[nc0gnet0]

Although I will continue to update pictures for a while, this batch is being pulled from the competition due to dorsal fin deformitiies. Normally I would'nt bother and cull the lot, but I am going to document why raising fry with this issue is pointless.


Rick

[nc0gnet0]

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-9-23-2_zps7a5dbbc1.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-9-23-1_zpsa1405a1f.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=XGsQEONR64E

As you can see most of these fish have dorsal deformities that will never correct themselves. Not quite sure what went wrong with these, normally this is a bacterial issue at wiggler stage. I do know this pair was having issues with batches prior to this one dieing before going free swimming, and they did get a PP treatment two days prior to spawn and the same tank maintenance/ WC routine as the other three batches. I haven't plucked the belly sliders from the tank as the parents are terribly protective still and its such a small batch I am not pressed to do so. On the plus side there are a few good fry in the mix. Soon I will be pulling the tefe to breed to another female of the same F1 batch this female came from.

[Second Hand Pat]

That bites big time Rick, what percentage of the fry is affected?

[nc0gnet0]

ONE MONTH UPDATE


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=wVc6jTQdlLk


Not sure what happened to this video but it seem blurry. They were awfully hungry and would'nt sit still. I will redo it tommorrow.

Pat, sorry I didn't see your question earlier, all but 2-3 of the fry were affected. It really is a shame because despite the defective fins this is a healthy batch, and the fastest growing of my 4 batches.

[DLFL]

Looking forward to seeing these grow out.

[DLFL]

Still will get a good look of the offspring. Hope the new match works out better.


Dick

[Second Hand Pat]

Sorry to hear that Rick and a real shame.

[nc0gnet0]

it's not a big deal, happens every once in a while, i can always make another batch.

rick

[nc0gnet0]

Week 5

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-10-7-1.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-10-7-2.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-10-7-3.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-10-7-4.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-10-7-5.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-10-7-6.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-10-7-7.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-10-7-8.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-10-7-9.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-10-7-10.jpg

[DLFL]

How many are there that have good fins?

Dick

[yim11]

The Wang Throwback F1 Nichols Intermediate weeps just a little.....

[Cosgrovb]

Probably my favorite pair to date displayed on Simply!

[John_Nicholson]

Damn those look great.......Of course they are growing faster...they don't have to take the time to grow fins.....LOL.

-john

[Eddie]

Sucks about the fins, the ones that are in good shape look really nice.

[nc0gnet0]

Dam those look great.......Of course they are growing faster...they don't have to take the time to grow fins.....LOL.


LMAO...yeah I knew I was going to catch some flak for these photo's. What can I say S**T happens to the best (and worse) of us. Thats is why I continue posting this batch.


The Wang Throwback F1 Nichols Intermediate weeps just a little.....

Just wait until one of the 4 good fry take best in show at NADA 2014! LOL

(ok now I sound like skip :) )

rick

[John_Nicholson]

Hey if one of the good one wins the show I will be thrilled....remember I have long pushed for hobbyist bred fish to be shown.....

-john

P.S. I was wondering how long it would take you to find my comment....LOL.

[Eddie]

I just got that comment. LMAO I didn't understand it at first.

[Skip]

Just wait until one of the 4 good fry take best in show at NADA 2014! LOL

(ok now I sound like skip :) )

rick

well.. i know i will be there :)

[John_Nicholson]

I just got that comment. LMAO I didn't understand it at first.

It was subtle.....

-john

[Eddie]

well.. i know i will be there :)

Didn't know you had gills.....lol

[nc0gnet0]

:p

[pcsb23]

I have removed a few posts that were taking this post off topic.

I for one will be interested in seeing how these fish develop - and if Rick ever breeds from the offspring if the traits carry forward or not.

Thanks folks.

[Len]

Do you know what the cause of the fin problem is and if so, are there something to avoid or do to prevent it?

[Skip]

Do you know what the cause of the fin problem is and if so, are there something to avoid or do to prevent it?

i know i am not very smart.. but can you tell me which pic has this fin problem.. so i can look more closely.. i get lost in some of these threads

[Len]

I had asked the same question and Rick was good enough to send me a picture outlining it but then pointed out it would be good share it here for the benefit of everyone.

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/damage.jpg

[nc0gnet0]

In my opinion, almost always a bacterial issue at a very early age. In this case I beleive it happened while the fry was still on the cone and had yet to go free swimming. I was a bit befuddled, as I had three successful spawns prior to this one and one right afterwards. And I adhered to pretty much the same WC/breeder pair-prep regimen which was:

4 hour PP bath of the breeding pair 2-3 days prior to spawn (all my pairs were on a cycle so I could pretty much guess when they were goiing to lay)
60-70% water change of the breeding tank daily.
Dosed with meth blue 2-3 hours after eggs were laid
40-50% water change dialy while eggs were on the cone
40-50% water changes pre-free swimming
25% water change day of free swimming
50% water change after attachment

[nc0gnet0]

I live in a small city SE of Greater Grand Rapids (Caledonia). We have municipal water, but the water is still basically well water. There is virutally no chlorine and zero chloramine in my water. If this is a contributing factor I don't know, but it is something I felt worth mentioning.

I think the biggest issue was the parents themselves. While they were co-operative, and not egg/fry eaters, they were what I would call lazy parents. For instance, most of my pairs almost always move the fry to a different local on the cone after they have hatched. This pair felt content to let them sit and they became entangled in fungus from the non fertilzed eggs. The parents also did not appear to fan the eggs/wigglers nearly as much as my other pairs.

Maybe for some reason certain batches of fry are more prone to infection at an early age (underdeveloped immune system?) than others. At first I even considered the possibility of a genetic nature, but the effected areas seem to be too random for that.

What I find interesting is that you would think fry like this would be weak and sickly, but despite thier butt ugly appearence, they seem to be a very helathy batch. I don't know how to explain that, but after you have raised a few batches you start to get a "feel" for that by watching how they behave.

Rick

[Len]

Would it be beneficial or helpful in any way to add an antibiotic after the eggs were laid?

[nc0gnet0]

Would it be beneficial or helpful in any way to add an antibiotic after the eggs were laid?

Thats a tough question and a controversial one at that. While yes, it most likely would help, the long term danger is it wold stand a chance of helping to create drug resistant strain(s) of bacteria, and its hard to tell if it would have any residual effect (weak liver/kidneys etc) on the fry themselves. It is a good question for Al to chime in on.......

Rick

[Tommo]

Would it be beneficial or helpful in any way to add an antibiotic after the eggs were laid?

There is a number of studies concening the use of chemicals in aquaculture and their uses including their residual effects. The link below is to a Greenpeace 'technical note': "Chemical Usage in Aquaculture: Implications for Residues in Market Products". You may find the tables on pages 6 - 9 a useful starting point for further studies? A variety of common chemicals commonly used in aquaculture are listed including antibiotics . . . (& Trichlorfon Rick)

http://www.greenpeace.to/publications/technical_Note_06_02.pdf

[John_Nicholson]

I would not read or trust anything from greenpeace...

Rick I found a picture of your favorite NASCAR driver...kind of your idol I believe....

-john

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/DiscusJohn/dale.jpg

[ockyra215]

Now thats FUNNY!

[Inland Empire Discus]

Would it be beneficial or helpful in any way to add an antibiotic after the eggs were laid?

Adding fucin 1 day before the eggs hatch and doing a 12 day treatment would be a good way to add antibiotics as fucin will not affect the eggs,wigglers, or free swimming fry. Fucin will help with most if not all bacterial issues including 4 week old syndrome. If this defect is truly from a bacterial infection at an early age this is probably the best way to deal with it.

[nc0gnet0]

FUran 2 + kanamyCIN

[Inland Empire Discus]

FUran 2 + kanamyCIN

Real Fucin is better and not as harsh are fry in my opinion.

[Eddie]

FUran 2 + kanamyCIN

lol, the color gives it away.

[kreekree]

I am also a Michigander (Ann Arbor). Go BLUE!!! Rick- do you sell your discus?

[Skip]

I am also a Michigander (Ann Arbor). Go BLUE!!! Rick- do you sell your discus?


Well.. He.dont ship...thats for sure

[nc0gnet0]

Week 6

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-10-14-1.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-10-14-2.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-10-14-3.jpg

[Eddie]

Killer eye to body ratio already. Nice!

[Cosgrovb]

Love that fry! Love the parent. Can't wait until you get a full spawn for the couple. Looking great.

[DLFL]

looking very nice!

[nc0gnet0]

Week 7
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-1--21-6.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-1--21-5.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-1--21-4.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-1--21-3.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-1--21-2.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-1--21-1.jpg

[DLFL]

nice round babies!

Dick

[John_Nicholson]

Very nice.

-john

[Eddie]

Super nice!

[Poco]

Very nice indeed!

[nc0gnet0]

Week 8

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-10-18-1.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-10-18-2.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-10-18-3.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-10-18-4.jpg

[Eddie]

These still look nice. The ones with full fins are gonna be exceptional!

[Len]

I can't wait to see what they turn into later on. This has been my favorite of your 4 batches, and the parents are simply fantastic.

[Cosgrovb]

These guys are great! My favorite so far of all contest fish is this guy.....
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/11/01/2y5u9e5e.jpg

[nc0gnet0]

Week 9

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-11-4-1.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-11-4-2.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-11-4-3.jpg

[Len]

looking good.

[Eddie]

NICE!

[DLFL]

All your juvs are looking gret!

[nc0gnet0]

Week 10
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-11-12-2.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-11-12-1.jpg


Some of the damaged ones starting to develop pattern.

[Eddie]

Looking great!

[nc0gnet0]

Looking great!

No they don't! :) Last several weeks I have focused on (in pictures) the few good ones in the batch, this week it dawned on me that's not the reason I kept these fish (normally they all would have been culled). As everyone can see (and Eddie I am sure you already knew) that the fin issues are not correcting themselves nor will they ever. They are showing me however an indication of what the pattern will be and allow me to make a decision if I want to again try this cross.

[Eddie]

No they don't! :) Last several weeks I have focused on (in pictures) the few good ones in the batch, this week it dawned on me that's not the reason I kept these fish (normally they all would have been culled). As everyone can see (and Eddie I am sure you already knew) that the fin issues are not correcting themselves nor will they ever. They are showing me however an indication of what the pattern will be and allow me to make a decision if I want to again try this cross.

I know about the fins, you explained that in the beginning. The ones with complete fins are still stunners!

[Sman]

How wonderful , beautiful .

[DLFL]

Very good color!

[nc0gnet0]

WEEK 11

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/PB113387.jpg?t=1353291128

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/PB113383.jpg?t=1353291131

[Eddie]

Crazy nice eye to body ratio on these.

[shoveltrash]

I really like these!!! looking good :)

[Poco]

Looking great!

[DLFL]

Great looking!

[nc0gnet0]

Week 12

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-11-27-2.jpg?t=1353996181

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-11-27-1.jpg?t=1353996207


On a positive note, The Tefe and another one of my F1's (the originals sister) have a fresh batch of eggs today. With any luck I won't run into this issue again.

[Eddie]

That would be KILLER! Definitely update on that pair!

[DLFL]

Good luck with the new batch!

[Cosgrovb]

Rick what happened to these guys?

[nc0gnet0]

Rick what happened to these guys?

Sorry I meant to post this two weeks ago. I haved culled all but two of this batch, and pulled them from the contest. I am however working with the pair again and hope to have some fry soon. I will post a few updates on the two I did keep.

Rick

[nc0gnet0]

All though these has been pulled from the contest I did keep a few just to watch the pattern develope, here is on I kept.

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/reject.jpg?t=1358623508

[Cosgrovb]

For the female, did any of her physical traits resemble the ARSG?

[nc0gnet0]

For the female, did any of her physical traits resemble the ARSG?

Not really but I have noticed that in a lot of her offspring the rsg genetics do come out.

[Cosgrovb]

The reason I ask is that the mother looks like a VR but I can see the GRS. No A of course. I really think the f1 here will show lots of the GRS. But the GRS and the Stendker Tefe will make a real real sharp baby! I am sooooo anxious to see the next spawn without deformity because they will be the best Mutts. :)

[nc0gnet0]

GRS? Do you mean RSG? lol What I want to see if the halo will carry over into any of the RSG/Tefe fry.

[Cosgrovb]

Dyslexia... Lol

[nc0gnet0]

Well it took awhile but finally had success:

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/fin2.jpg?t=1359269253

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/finally.jpg?t=1359269033

Nice group of fry but hard to make out they are so dark, looks too be around 200

[Cosgrovb]

This was with the sister?

[nc0gnet0]

Yes, sister of the orignal female. She has much more red in the body region but lacks the markings on the forehead.

[Cosgrovb]

Does she have the nice Halo like Mom #1?

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/01/28/vemy9ety.jpg

[Cosgrovb]

How are these guys? Or the others similarly situated?

[nc0gnet0]

The second batch is fine, will get some pictures up soon.

[Wjmulder]

Would love to see some pics.:)

[pastry]

Like Bill said, me too. I was actually just checking on this batch lately. I reeeaaaally want to see the turn out.

[nc0gnet0]

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-1_zps6cd685ee.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-2_zpsa2e505d8.jpg

http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss118/nc0gnet0/b4-5_zps68fb5a13.jpg

[Darren's Discus]

Very nice, all the best with them.
Cheers