Too many meds....not enough water changes.

[nc0gnet0]

Can't help but notice there seems to be a reoccurring theme on a lot of the contest threads. Contestants get the fry to a certain point then all of a sudden they are throwing everything but the kitchen sink at them, trying to cure a problem that in all likelyhood could have been prevented with proper tank maintenance.

There is a saying...an ounce pf prevention is worth a pound of cure. Nothing could be more true when it comes to raising baby discus.

Perhaps this being a contest and all, too many are too concerned with growing them too fast, as a result are trying to power feed, but not doing enough water changes in relation to their feeding schedule? Baby discus will grow just fine getting fed 2-3 times a day once past 4 weeks or so. Granted more feedings will allow them to grow faster, but only if the water quality is maintained.

If given a choice between pristine water and an extra feeding, I will always take the former. Opinions?

Rick

[Keith Perkins]

Back when my fish first started spawning, I always had great luck with small spawns and lousy luck with the large ones. It didn't take long to figure out the bigger batches got more food, produced more waste, had more left over food in the tank, and in the end poorer water quality. Power feeding without power water changing seems like a natural recipe for problems.

[Skip]

clear water is not clean water

[MKD]

I think it's because too many batches or way too many tanks/things to handle but there is 24 hours a day. full time job, family, kids and discus that is lot of works already, now on top of that frys requires a lot of cares just like having a new baby in family. just my opinion.

[Harry Marsh]

I don't think these fish are meant to be separated to '8' by 2 months
It's an unhealthy situation - fish are too small, scared, etc

And people are trying to compensate with meds (in addition to your water quality concerns)

[yim11]

One thing I find very interesting is the huge difference already between fry being raised in the 'traditional' method and fry being raised in non-conventional ways. The mortality rates speak volumes.

The contest is already proving to be a great educational resource IMO.

[nc0gnet0]

But many of the fish have succumbed to illness before two months. usually by three months your home free.

[Second Hand Pat]

In some cases that is very true Jim but not in all :)

[yim11]

I bet we could agree to "most cases" lol

:)

[Skip]

not my case :)

[Second Hand Pat]

Of course :)

Skip, you are pretty conventional...at least with your fry rearing.

[Keith Perkins]

I don't think these fish are meant to be separated to '8' by 2 months
It's an unhealthy situation - fish are too small, scared, etc

And people are trying to compensate with meds (in addition to your water quality concerns)

2 months of age puts the average discus right about at 2 inches in length which is a pretty common size to start selling them at. I don't think separating 8 of them out at that age should be an issue.

[Skip]

i am not sure.. how many people actually had 2" fish.. at 8 weeks... ?

[Keith Perkins]

Maybe I spend too much time reading Rick's threads...lol.

[Skip]

Maybe I spend too much time reading Rick's threads...lol.

mine were dime sized at 6 weeks when i got them

[Poco]

One thing I find very interesting is the huge difference already between fry being raised in the 'traditional' method and fry being raised in non-conventional ways. The mortality rates speak volumes.

The contest is already proving to be a great educational resource IMO.

Traditional method is tried and tested, that is why people have so much sucsess with it. If someone wants to experiment the unconventional way it is there choice but if they still persist with it when it has let them down is a cause of concern. All of us have made mistakes in our life but we need to learn from those mistakes and not be stubborn and keep repeating them.

[nevsfish]

i agree with the 2-3 feedings per day and clean tanks plus water changes.this method has worked well for me growing out my discus.i find to many discus keepers see something not normal and start throwing antibiotics and other meds at there fish when the problem could be avoided buy water changes and clean tank condition.discus are tough but not when there tanks are not keep very clean,they become stressed and disease sets in.

[jimg]

yes clean water is the best advice but still discus are expensive for a reason. I have raised many batches in the same conditions, some get sick some don't. in many cases you either "throw the sink" at them or flush them.
didn't you just have a possible bacterial problem effecting the fins? and you keep your maintenance high and use uv.
ime most depends on the condition of the parents to begin with.
growing them fast should be left to the breeders who make $ getting them sold

[nc0gnet0]

didn't you just have a possible bacterial problem effecting the fins? and you keep your maintenance high and use uv.
ime most depends on the condition of the parents to begin with.

That I did, and I threw it out there for everyone to see as well. But, for the record, I don't use UV in my breeding tanks (yet). They only get placed in tanks with UV after they are off BBS (BBS are so small they would get sucked into the uv, and I prefer to keep my bbs alive as long as possible) for the preliminary grow out phase. A good pre-filter sponge would rectify this and I plan on giving it a go in the future.

But for the record, the bacterial issue I had happened prior to free swimming, and while those little buggers are ugly as sin and permanently scarred, they are healthy and to date haven't had a drop of medication or have I lost a single one. It's actually quite interesting this batch, although all most all of them have a date with the sink-r-rator, its almost as the intial issue kicked thier immune system in at an early age.

[jimg]

I had a batch of icca reds that had what looked like bacterial infections on the fins, looked almost like bites taken out. no matter how many times I clipped the fins(soft rays) they would grow back exactly the same. I wonder if bacterial or birth defects.
remembering back the fin defects I had started about quarter size. I read there are types of fungus or bacteria, don't remember which that release enzymes/acids that destroy the fins.
high hatching temps can lead to defects too

[Len]

What do you consider high hatching temps?

[nc0gnet0]

I
read there are types of fungus or bacteria, don't remember which that release enzymes/acids that destroy the fins.

Where have you read this? I posted this in my contest thread:


I think the biggest issue was the parents themselves. While they were co-operative, and not egg/fry eaters, they were what I would call lazy parents. For instance, most of my pairs almost always move the fry to a different local on the cone after they have hatched. This pair felt content to let them sit and they became entangled in fungus from the non fertilzed eggs. The parents also did not appear to fan the eggs/wigglers nearly as much as my other pairs.

[jimg]

What do you consider high hatching temps?above 85

[jimg]

I

Where have you read this? I posted this in my contest thread:about the enzymes eating the fins? a few years ago I read that don't remember where. when I run into things most times I read through university/veterinarian studies.
the parents being the culprit? was not read that's from my actual experience.
not often do I repost,suggest or comment on what others say unless I prove it for myself.

[nc0gnet0]

Jim, you kinda lost me on that last post. When I said the parents were the culprit I meant in so far as they did not bother moving the fry from the entanglement of fungus from the unhatched eggs.

[Cosgrovb]

Rick -- don't you use pp a few days prior to the pair laying eggs to kindof sterilize the tank?

[jimg]

Jim, you kinda lost me on that last post. When I said the parents were the culprit I meant in so far as they did not bother moving the fry from the entanglement of fungus from the unhatched eggs. In post 22 it showed two quote areas I wasn't sure which the question was aimed at so I answered both. i may have just misunderstood it.

[brewmaster15]

Please keep in mind.. When a medication is added to a tank, that medication is absorbed and processed by the fishes organs... IF this is done to a an adult fish...The fishes organs are better able to deal with the level of medication in the tank. It has larger surface areas in key organs like the liver... a small fish/has relatively smaller surface area and is also rapidly growing which itself means a higher rate of metabolism... Medications can be very harsh on small fish...even safe ones.

Often times people forget that Fish are far more similar to us than different biologically. If you have ever had children, Theres a reason why there are Children's Doses for medications....its called toxicity. Now before anyone jumps in and says "well I have dosed XXX medication to fry and have seen no issues...stop. That means nothing unless you have somehow anticipated the problem and split the group into a control and treated group. Use medications cautiously with small fry..we don't know what the effect will be....its not been researched. In fact, we don't know what it is for adults...we just have subjective data based on terrestrial mammal dosing for most meds we dump into the tanks.

Also not saying cut the dose...as that makes no sense if done subjectively. What I am saying is medication should be the last resort...and when you use expect some adverse effects....These could be from indirect ammonia nitriate spikes, to loss or impaired appetite, to labored breathing and shedding the intestinal lining from stress...could also be chemical poisoning.

HTH,
al

[Cosgrovb]

Great post Al!

[Eddie]

Please keep in mind.. When a medication is added to a tank, that medication is absorbed and processed by the fishes organs... IF this is done to a an adult fish...The fishes organs are better able to deal with the level of medication in the tank. It has larger surface areas in key organs like the liver... a small fish/has relatively smaller surface area and is also rapidly growing which itself means a higher rate of metabolism... Medications can be very harsh on small fish...even safe ones.

Often times people forget that Fish are far more similar to us than different biologically. If you have ever had children, Theres a reason why there are Children's Doses for medications....its called toxicity. Now before anyone jumps in and says "well I have dosed XXX medication to fry and have seen no issues...stop. That means nothing unless you have somehow anticipated the problem and split the group into a control and treated group. Use medications cautiously with small fry..we don't know what the effect will be....its not been researched. In fact, we don't know what it is for adults...we just have subjective data based on terrestrial mammal dosing for most meds we dump into the tanks.

Also not saying cut the dose...as that makes no sense if done subjectively. What I am saying is medication should be the last resort...and when you use expect some adverse effects....These could be from indirect ammonia nitriate spikes, to loss or impaired appetite, to labored breathing and shedding the intestinal lining from stress...could also be chemical poisoning.

HTH,
al

Great post Al!

[jimg]

true Al I will add about the gills being damaged from pp, formalin etc