Re: How is it that all my LFS carry Discus within these parameters?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
discuspaul
Yes, the confrontation is unfortunate.......nonetheless:
What is quite upsetting is that there are many experienced discus hobbyists on this forum who do their level best to point discus novices in the right directions so they can avoid frustration, disappointment, and even outright failure, who are all too often taken for fools and viewed as not knowing, or not having had the experience of what they're talking about, either that, or who are considered by some as being arrogant nay-sayers who make a point of being overly negative and obsessively unyielding in their views on how to proceed to successfully keep discus.
It might be a better world if only more of those who initially disregarded the good advices of these members and got burned in the process would come forward and freely admit they were wrong and seriously suffered for it, then the forum could gather them together and make a very convincing sticky of these unsuccessful strayings from the wisdom words of experience, and to which all the argumentative newcomers could be referred for some good reading.
Yes, the confrontational approach is unfortunate, though I think the word abrasive was a better choice. To your point, yes it does get frustrating when you try to give sound advice to someone who admittedly has no experience and they seem to want to debate it. The other side of that though is that maybe they are just trying to determine for themselves if the advice is actually sound or if it may just be the view of someone who is overzealous in their approach. The OP asked questions and received some very sound answers, some of them even polite and it is up to them to decide, but if the fact that they keep asking the questions upsets you, the simply stop responding -- why allow yourself to become agitated? Hauling out the soap box and giving a harsh throne speech in front of a cheering audience isn't going to make you any more credible or authoritative in that person's mind. It also isn't sending an inviting feeling toward other new members who may just be lurking and unsure if they dare post.
In terms of what quality is though, I get the impression that the OP truly believed that the two fish posted in the photo were good. I'd suggest comparing to photos of fish from some of our sponsors (Hans, Kenny, Josie) to get a better idea of what to look for. There are other sponsors here as well that have great fish, those are just the ones foremost in my mind so no slight intended to anyone else.
Re: How is it that all my LFS carry Discus within these parameters?
You have to take into consideration the closed mindedness of many of the new folks on the forum recently in addition to wanting to make sure folks dont read threads like this and think sick lfs stock is the way to go.
Re: How is it that all my LFS carry Discus within these parameters?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
discuspaul
Yes, the confrontation is unfortunate.......nonetheless:
What is quite upsetting is that there are many experienced discus hobbyists on this forum who do their level best to point discus novices in the right directions so they can avoid frustration, disappointment, and even outright failure, who are all too often taken for fools and viewed as not knowing, or not having had the experience of what they're talking about, either that, or who are considered by some as being arrogant nay-sayers who make a point of being overly negative and obsessively unyielding in their views on how to proceed to successfully keep discus.
It might be a better world if only more of those who initially disregarded the good advices of these members and got burned in the process would come forward and freely admit they were wrong and seriously suffered for it, then the forum could gather them together and make a very convincing sticky of these unsuccessful strayings from the wisdom words of experience, and to which all the argumentative newcomers could be referred for some good reading.
Agree Paul.... There are tons of threads already here in the forum; people just need to use the search function
Re: How is it that all my LFS carry Discus within these parameters?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Len_S
Yes, the confrontational approach is unfortunate, though I think the word abrasive was a better choice. To your point, yes it does get frustrating when you try to give sound advice to someone who admittedly has no experience and they seem to want to debate it. The other side of that though is that maybe they are just trying to determine for themselves if the advice is actually sound or if it may just be the view of someone who is overzealous in their approach. The OP asked questions and received some very sound answers, some of them even polite and it is up to them to decide, but if the fact that they keep asking the questions upsets you, the simply stop responding -- why allow yourself to become agitated? Hauling out the soap box and giving a harsh throne speech in front of a cheering audience isn't going to make you any more credible or authoritative in that person's mind. It also isn't sending an inviting feeling toward other new members who may just be lurking and unsure if they dare post.
In terms of what quality is though, I get the impression that the OP truly believed that the two fish posted in the photo were good. I'd suggest comparing to photos of fish from some of our sponsors (Hans, Kenny, Josie) to get a better idea of what to look for. There are other sponsors here as well that have great fish, those are just the ones foremost in my mind so no slight intended to anyone else.
Maybe this thread has run its course. Just a thought.
Re: How is it that all my LFS carry Discus within these parameters?
What I've gathered so far is that LFS are generally the devil and are only in it for the money, which is technically true, they have a business to run afterall. I realize that different people have different opinions about what Discus need and don't need. i.e. perfect R/O D/O water, 6.5PH, etc.
What I couldn't figure out is if all Discus fish are created equal. Despite what everyone is saying, Discus can "technically" live solo, but shouldn't be kept solo to avoid stunting the fish. In order to maximize the beauty of a specific Discus fish, Discus should be kept in groups of 5 or more with 55 gallons being the minimum, similar to their natural habitat. Reputable breeders are the best option for a quality species, as is the case with just about any domesticated animal.
The vibe that I'm getting from all this is Discus are held to a higher standard not only for their beauty, but the overall quality and maintenance that goes into raising the biggest roundest Discus out there. The bigger, rounder, and higher the quality, the more maintenance that goes into raising such Discus, the more reputable the owner comes off as and the more likely people will buy Discus from said person.
It almost comes off like I'm asking about dog breeds here. Some people will shed negative light on puppy mills to try to force this whole "purebred championship pedigree" lineage down on you. Adopting a mutt is a big no-no and will break this great lineage of animal if you get one and you will have a 99.9% of getting a diseased animal unless you buy from a breeder.
I once asked if I could keep cardinal tetras with 7.0PH, and the answers I got were no, they will die, they need a PH of 3.5/5.5. I bought them anyway from a LFS and they're doing just fine, some are almost 2" now. So excuse me if it seems like I'm taking everything with a grain of salt, I was only asking if the LFS in question were doing anything wrong. Some people are acting like they're the devil and have the ugliest Discus they've ever seen and don't live up to their standards and need to be destroyed before society gets to them.
Don't know what else to add other than to the nice gentleman who asked about the plant. It's called a Green Tiger Lotus:
http://www.rfitropicalfish.com/image...iger_lotus.jpg
Re: How is it that all my LFS carry Discus within these parameters?
Aqualogic, I think you took the wrong message away. I'm also not so sure I would equate the LFS with the devil. Not all LFS are created equal and there are some that are reputable. You are correct though -- it is a business transaction fist and foremost. The goal is to move as many fish as quickly as possible. Beyond that there isn't necessarily malice intended, but just as often just s sheer lack of knowledge of the fish they are selling. Dealing with a breeder or even a reseller who gets fish directly from a breeder and also has the knowledge and care to keep the fish in top quality until they are sold gives you a better chance at success. Beyond that it is up to you to put best practices in place to ensure your own success. Keeping the fish in the best conditions, environment and yes even numbers are all the best path to achieving that goal. we were all in your shoes at some point, not knowing what advice we should follow and like you say took it with a grain of salt. Read through the forum and you shuld get a feel for whose advice you should follow. if it's easier, pick someone who appears to be successful, based on experience and proof offered and try to understand what made them successful. Once you have a feel for what is working, you can tweak things a bit to what best suits your needs, but try to learn the basics first. Hope that helps some.
Re: How is it that all my LFS carry Discus within these parameters?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
aqualogic
Thanks for the info Aqualogic! Good luck with your adventure! Whether you're wildly successful with your soon-to-be discus or not (hopefully the former), keep us updated! Would love to read about your experience. The Green Tiger Lotus is gorgeous!
Re: How is it that all my LFS carry Discus within these parameters?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
discuspaul
It might be a better world if only more of those who initially disregarded the good advices of these members and got burned in the process would come forward and freely admit they were wrong and seriously suffered for it, then the forum could gather them together and make a very convincing sticky of these unsuccessful strayings from the wisdom words of experience, and to which all the argumentative newcomers could be referred for some good reading.
I tried starting a thread similar to that in August.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...er-Experiences
Re: How is it that all my LFS carry Discus within these parameters?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
discuspaul
Yes, the confrontation is unfortunate.......nonetheless:
What is quite upsetting is that there are many experienced discus hobbyists on this forum who do their level best to point discus novices in the right directions so they can avoid frustration, disappointment, and even outright failure, who are all too often taken for fools and viewed as not knowing, or not having had the experience of what they're talking about, either that, or who are considered by some as being arrogant nay-sayers who make a point of being overly negative and obsessively unyielding in their views on how to proceed to successfully keep discus.
It might be a better world if only more of those who initially disregarded the good advices of these members and got burned in the process would come forward and freely admit they were wrong and seriously suffered for it, then the forum could gather them together and make a very convincing sticky of these unsuccessful strayings from the wisdom words of experience, and to which all the argumentative newcomers could be referred for some good reading.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Len_S
Yes, the confrontational approach is unfortunate, though I think the word abrasive was a better choice. To your point, yes it does get frustrating when you try to give sound advice to someone who admittedly has no experience and they seem to want to debate it. The other side of that though is that maybe they are just trying to determine for themselves if the advice is actually sound or if it may just be the view of someone who is overzealous in their approach. The OP asked questions and received some very sound answers, some of them even polite and it is up to them to decide, but if the fact that they keep asking the questions upsets you, the simply stop responding -- why allow yourself to become agitated? Hauling out the soap box and giving a harsh throne speech in front of a cheering audience isn't going to make you any more credible or authoritative in that person's mind. It also isn't sending an inviting feeling toward other new members who may just be lurking and unsure if they dare post.
In terms of what quality is though, I get the impression that the OP truly believed that the two fish posted in the photo were good. I'd suggest comparing to photos of fish from some of our sponsors to get a better idea of what to look for. There are other sponsors here as well that have great fish, those are just the ones foremost in my mind so no slight intended to anyone else.
Extremely well put gentlemen.
Re: How is it that all my LFS carry Discus within these parameters?
I think the best way to have handled this would be to take OPs pictures point out each aspect of why this is not a good discus for the money, then post another picture and show each of the same aspects and why these aspects are good for the money.
LFS sell stock, hire people who know little knowledge or get minimum amount of wages. They do what is necessary to keep the fish alive and healthy for the short interim. Only a special LST sells top quality and promotes each fish with rules to ensure a maximum growth and best of care giving.
My fish are not perfect, for that matter neither am I. OMG if the world just viewed us by our perfectness we would all be in Hollywood. :cheesy:
There are many ways to teach what is good and what is considered bad but honestly I love my little football discus all the same. Sometimes I buy because there is an emotional attachment.This is not aways a bad thing especially if I know what is a good healthy fish.
This can still be done, turn this conversation around, point out the reasons why op's pictures of discus are a poor example, then post a picture of a good looking discus and go over the same points and explain why they are good. You can also direct op to the forum that explains good discus traits if he /she is interested in understanding those traits.
OP yes you will find many people who compete and win awards for their fish, just like the dog shows! Still many people buy from the Humane Society, and find the common just as personal and dynamic as a show dog/fish. It depends on you and your personal likes and dislikes. This is the place to gather and look at opinions understand what works and what has posed problematic, file it away in your brain somewhere and use it when considering to own and purchase discus.
Most of us want our discus to be as healthy as possible, and that also means be all you can be. So getting your discus to an adult size is just ensuring that discus can integrate and live a long healthy life. Most of us want to give our kids the tools needed to succeed and live a happy life.
Re: How is it that all my LFS carry Discus within these parameters?
Quote:
What I couldn't figure out is if all Discus fish are created equal.
:bandana: "Technically", no. Some, because of genetics, have a better shot at being superior specimens if optimal care & conditions are met.
Quote:
The vibe that I'm getting from all this is Discus are held to a higher standard not only for their beauty, but the overall quality and maintenance that goes into raising the biggest roundest Discus out there.
:bandana: Yes they are held to a higher standard. Forget the forums & the amateur hobbyists for a minute. Read some HISTORY from pros like Degen, Axelrod, Wattley, Yamada, Schmidt-Focke, Quarles, Soh, Chan, Mayland, Dawes, Hargreaves, Mori or Stuart . The readings will help to give you some background as to why Discus was back then & still is today "KING OF THE AQUARIUM".
Quote:
It almost comes off like I'm asking about dog breeds here. Some people will shed negative light on puppy mills to try to force this whole "purebred championship pedigree" lineage down on you. Adopting a mutt is a big no-no and will break this great lineage of animal if you get one and you will have a 99.9% of getting a diseased animal unless you buy from a breeder.
:bandana: We're talking apples & oranges here but ok lets go. There's nothing wrong with owning a mutt. I have one & lover her to pieces. Cost me a small fee/donation to the shelter she came from. I also have a champion sired Staffordshire Terrier that cost me a small fortune & I love him too. Both great dogs in their own way.
Quote:
I once asked if I could keep cardinal tetras with 7.0PH, and the answers I got were no, they will die, they need a PH of 3.5/5.5.
:bandana: Guess you asked the wrong folks cause they lied to you (sorry misled you) . Sometimes it's difficult to sort out opinion from fact. Quite often the line blurs. Bottom line, the books above will give you history, foundation. The good folks on here will give you a more present day 'tried & true'. Take it ALL in & then do whatever makes YOU happy!! "T"
Re: How is it that all my LFS carry Discus within these parameters?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tazalanche
Very nice effort, David. I missed seeing that thread at the time.
Re: How is it that all my LFS carry Discus within these parameters?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Len_S
The other side of that though is that maybe they are just trying to determine for themselves if the advice is actually sound or if it may just be the view of someone who is overzealous in their approach. The OP asked questions and received some very sound answers, some of them even polite and it is up to them to decide, but if the fact that they keep asking the questions upsets you, the simply stop responding -- why allow yourself to become agitated? Hauling out the soap box and giving a harsh throne speech in front of a cheering audience isn't going to make you any more credible or authoritative in that person's mind. It also isn't sending an inviting feeling toward other new members who may just be lurking and unsure if they dare post.
What he said.
Re: How is it that all my LFS carry Discus within these parameters?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nc0gnet0
It's far from needless.......trust me on this..
-Rick
There is a need to be abrasive?
Re: How is it that all my LFS carry Discus within these parameters?
Quote:
There is a need to be abrasive?
Only to those that wish to resurect a thread that had run it's course with no other purpose than to continue the bickering.