Does light matter? You be the judge

Rather than go on a super winded explanation, I will explain the process on how I took these shots:

First:
Control shots. This is how I would normally take shots with no added light or flash

Second set:
Added a 48" T5HO light I had lying around

Third set:
Started with one flash, then moved to two

The goal of this thread is to show you the different options for taking a wide range of shots, but additionally, what happens when you transition from one shooting style to the next. I have not adjusted ANYTHING but white balance on mostly the T5 lit ones since they were super, super yellow.

I have titled every single shot according to their EXIF. This is how it will read, ___my title for the shot___its order_-__Shutter speed__F-stop__ISO

I will try to give a little explanation under each to show what I was doing through every shot. I tried to consolidate as much as I could so you wouldn't be seeing the same EXIF on many. if I missed one, I apologize.

Lets get started:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...psimvt85dd.jpg
Control 1 - 1-40 4.5 800

This is the control shot. This is how I would normally shoot if I didn't have flash

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...psz6zhwjgk.jpg
Control Close Up 1-40 4.5 800

The close up shows some ok sharpness, but nothing to write home about

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...psrpudkfvl.jpg
New Light 1 - 1-60 2.8 400

T5 Light added. Notice I didn't change the settings much to show how much more overexposed the shot is now that I have added a ton more light. The next few shots show the transition of settings to accommodate to the added light. This will show you in what direction you want to take your settings when you are letting in too much light in to a shot and overexposing.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...psr8grqmzv.jpg
New Light 2 - 1-60 4.0 400

Notice I closed down the aperture a little here to f/4 rather than f/2.8 and it is still very bright

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...psealpqlao.jpg
New Light 3 Close Up - 1-60 4.0 400

Same settings as above but a close up to show the overexposure

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...psbvsdxrkc.jpg
New Light 4 - 1-100 5.0 400

Closed down the aperture again and also increased shutter speed. Increasing the shutter speed allows you to stop the discus motion more, and more light allows you to increase this value without sacrificing the aperture which controls the depth of field.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...psxsddjuq2.jpg
New Light 5 Close Up - 1-100 5.0 400

Close up with the settings above. Notice how much sharper it looks with shutter speed 1/100 but also the fact that we stopped down the aperture to f/5

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...pslbiv9k3l.jpg
New Light 6 Close Up - 1-100 5.0 400

Just another close up to show the sharper image than with the control light

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...psjxctcz8b.jpg
1 Flash Transition to flash

So, now we make the transition to flash. Kept the same settings as the previous shot, but notice now how much BRIGHTER it is! Flash simply overpowers everything. Next shows me adjusting the settings to have better exposure. This is a trial and error many times, but you will see the transitioning from settings by checking out the titles. KEEP IN MIND, both the regular LED lights AND the T5 lights are STILL ON here. Notice how the flash pretty much neutralizes them.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...psudqqqw8l.jpg
1 Flash 1 - 1-200 8.0 100

Still unusable. Have to reduce further. Keep noticing in the directions that the settings are going

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...pssvk3eee2.jpg
1 Flash 2 - 1-60 11.0 100

Getting better. This is still one flash only, keep in mind.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...pszetczjmb.jpg
2 Flash 1 - 1-60 11.0 100

With 2 flashes now. This allows me to spread the light in a larger part of the tank. Notice that other areas of the tank still look dark. This is in part for the low aperture as well as ISO setting

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...psga7ilx4d.jpg
2 Flash 2 - 1-25 14.0 100

Better lit. next one is a close up

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...psn9ipens3.jpg
2 Flash 3 Close Up - 1-25 14.0 100

Better right?

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...psllouk6ma.jpg
2 Flash 4 - 1-40 14.0 200

Increased ISO to 200 and it better lights the rest of the tank

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...ps3euz5rjn.jpg
2 Flash 5 - 1-40 11.0 200

Opened the aperture a bit for this shot because this discus is a little darker and the angle was further from the flash. Keep in mind, the flashes are in certain areas, and you want to stay in those general areas to get the best lit up shots

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...psgtgccxm4.jpg
2 Flash 6 - 1-40 11.0 200

Now just showing the settings at work.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...psdidyyoqh.jpg


Last one. I like the end result of flash shots because you can get the background to darken a bit which focus your attention to the discus. However, this isn't the only reason why I prefer flash over control lighting. In the next post, I will show you close up shots of both lighting set ups.

Keep in mind, the next 3 shots are all cropped down to the EXACT same size.

We will start in the same order as above.

Control

T5

Flash



http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...psuu03qq6s.jpg
Control close up

Notice the sharpness really takes a hit with these settings

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...pstvdfgpau.jpg
T5 lighting.

This shot is almost acceptable as far as sharpness goes. I actually wouldn't mind using this setup in the future when I do not feel like taking the flash out. However, for some reason, taking this light out and taking it towards the discus tank completely freaks them out!

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...pswoo4v7sa.jpg
2 flash setup

I like this one the best, and you can see it is the most sharp.


I hope you liked this demonstration :)


Edit, as an added bonus, I hadn't realized that these were ALL the same discus. This really makes this an apples to apples comparison.

Good looking subjects.

That tank is soooooo nice.

Ricardo thats a great intro to lighting, flash and Fish pics. Very nicely done! Nice Fish Too!:)

Thanks for the thread!
al

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alcastro

Good looking subjects.

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You're telling me! They came from a good source ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ericNH

That tank is soooooo nice.

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Thank you very much. I'm glad you like it. I believe it still looks rather plain, but plain works well for me for grow outs. Eventually I plan to add DW and a small sand layer, but that will not be for another year or so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brewmaster15

Ricardo thats a great intro to lighting, flash and Fish pics. Very nicely done! Nice Fish Too!:)

Thanks for the thread!
al

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Thanks Al. Lighting, or rather LIGHT itself plays the biggest role of all in photography. If you (general, not you specifically Al :)) can get a grasp on the way light affects a photo, you can better prepare yourself to take better shots with that understanding. Flash does change a lot of variables, but I wanted to use it here to simply show the progression of light.

Furthermore, I'd like to point out again that NONE of these are edited in any way other than WB correction. That means, I can get these to look a lot better! I chose to show you a straight conversion for complete transparency.

Secondly, I will point out one major flaw in my flash photos. Typically, you want to diffuse your flash somehow. I chose not to do that here, because in reality, I do not have a modifier small enough to use any more. I use to have a Gary Fong diffuser that would have worked quite well here, however, I gave it away as I never saw my self using it in my personal shooting. Now I regret it of course, because a modifier, ANY MODIFIER, helps even out the light tremendously.

I will most likely do a follow up to this thread with the use of modifiers, and without.

What is a modifier? It can be as simple as a piece of white paper. I have used this in the past with the exact same photography you see above. You can use wax paper, you can use styrofoam, which I believe Matt has used in the past in one of his YT tutorials. If you haven't checked that out yet, please do so. I don't have the video saved currently, but if Matt would be so kind, I'm sure he could link it here as well.

If you have any questions, please ask them. There is no such thing as stupid questions ;)

Mo Devlin once told me he would use several flashes on the tank he was shooting but would cover them with a milky white tupper ware container on all but the up flash or camera flash. It was so scary the detail he would get on the scales and fins not to mention the iridescence of the scales.

by the way very nice pictures :o

duplicate sorry

This is an excellent post! Lighting makes a huge difference!

While we are on the subject, what do you think about using a fill from a front angle or so? I know Mo uses fill flashes quite a bit, I've never gotten the hang of using fills with fish or maybe my angles are off. Ever tried using a fill Ricardo? Thinking more to light the entire fish rather than have really nice light on the head and have it fade off through the body to the tail. Lighting the entire fish like it is in the face really is the outcome.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Discus-n00b

This is an excellent post! Lighting makes a huge difference!

While we are on the subject, what do you think about using a fill from a front angle or so? I know Mo uses fill flashes quite a bit, I've never gotten the hang of using fills with fish or maybe my angles are off. Ever tried using a fill Ricardo? Thinking more to light the entire fish rather than have really nice light on the head and have it fade off through the body to the tail. Lighting the entire fish like it is in the face really is the outcome.

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I have never actually tried this Matt. Not quite understanding the angle but I can try a few in the next couple of days to see if it makes a difference. I have 3 strobes I can use and I can try modifying. However, I can't use my studio strobes as they are just too large to make it work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pitdogg2

Mo Devlin once told me he would use several flashes on the tank he was shooting but would cover them with a milky white tupper ware container on all but the up flash or camera flash. It was so scary the detail he would get on the scales and fins not to mention the iridescence of the scales.

by the way very nice pictures :o

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Yes, modifiers make a huge difference. I would NEVER do a photo session without some kind of modifier, even if the modifier is a ceiling. It is like night and day.

When ever I've tried filling from the front sides I always seem to get to much direct on the fish even turning that flash very low. I think I'd need to diffuse it quite a bit or bounce it somewhere as all I'd be trying to do is lighten up the tail half some more instead of having the light taper from the head. Sending you a quick PM Ricardo!

Yes, but which looks better to your eye?

To bad your fish make such poor subjects! Seriously, that is a beautiful tank.

One thing I noticed about the images with flash, there seems to be much more backscatter. This is a real problem with strobes and UW photography. In that setting it can be corrected by angling the flash/strobe outward. I wonder if that would work on the tank, not shooting the flash straight down.

Maybe the tank should be cleaner and water more polished! ;) LOL just kidding. It's hard to avoid, I think you are going to hit it no matter what in an aquarium. I don't usually worry about it, I always take it out in post. A simple dust and scratches filter in photoshop will usually take care of it, and you can clone the larger particles and particles on the fish itself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SMB2

To bad your fish make such poor subjects! Seriously, that is a beautiful tank.

One thing I noticed about the images with flash, there seems to be much more backscatter. This is a real problem with strobes and UW photography. In that setting it can be corrected by angling the flash/strobe outward. I wonder if that would work on the tank, not shooting the flash straight down.

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Bare flash doesn't make matters any easier either. I've tried it with strobes facing out and I still get this problem.

I want to try matts suggestion and I may try moving them around more as well Stan and see what the change depicts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Discus-n00b

Maybe the tank should be cleaner and water more polished! ;) LOL just kidding. It's hard to avoid, I think you are going to hit it no matter what in an aquarium. I don't usually worry about it, I always take it out in post. A simple dust and scratches filter in photoshop will usually take care of it, and you can clone the larger particles and particles on the fish itself.

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I normally work the files when actually doing a shoot, but for this exercise I chose not to. There are a few things I would have tweeked in post though.

Oh I know Ricardo, just pointing out that it's a very fixable problem when you get backscatter. When going through your pictures, for anyone reading this and learning, don't toss them just because they have speckles and what appears to be dust all in the water. Learn some basic post processing and remove this, simple fix! What you want to be grading your photo on, and picking it out of the group for is the lighting on the fish. Everything around it can usually be removed/fixed/edited to look normal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Discus-n00b

Oh I know Ricardo, just pointing out that it's a very fixable problem when you get backscatter. When going through your pictures, for anyone reading this and learning, don't toss them just because they have speckles and what appears to be dust all in the water. Learn some basic post processing and remove this, simple fix! What you want to be grading your photo on, and picking it out of the group for is the lighting on the fish. Everything around it can usually be removed/fixed/edited to look normal.

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That is a very good point. That is great practice. In fact, if anyone would like RAW files to work with to try to work with post processing, please let me know and I'll start a folder for whomever would like to play around with it.

I'd be glad to add some as well if need be, I have all of my RAW files going back years. Discus in all sorts of different tanks lol, home tanks NADA show tanks everything. As soon as I clean the Tropheus tank, possibly Sunday, I will set up my flashes and see what I can do using a fill.

So question for you guys. How do you remove spots etc in the water? Do you clone them out?
Pat

Pat I think I remember you had or were getting LR.
In the Develop module click (or hit Q), the Spot removal Tool. Then click the Heal option. This will give you a controllable circle over the image that you can adjust to the spot. Click and it will remove the spot. Sometimes it is not to accurate. If you hit H you will see where the sample was taken from and move that around to get what you like.
Also at the bottom left you will see Visualize Spots. If you check this and move the slider to the right you get a negative that will show you the spots and can remove them on this screen the same way.
Attachment 92819

Attachment 92820

Attachment 92821

Ricardo, you can try this either from the front or with the flash on top of the tank. I have not tried it (on land!) but the principle should be the same. Diffusers make a huge difference as well.

Attachment 92822

You can Pat. Stan covered you on LR, I work in photoshop. I tend to clone the larger brighter spots out as the other method isn't as effective against them. For all of the rest I use the selection tool, select the area, or cut around the fish and select the rest of the image (everything but the fish) and then apply a "Dust and Scratches" filter (under the filter menu). You can adjust the weight. The higher the number the more they disappear but the more blur you get in the background, which isn't always bad.

If you want me to expose the dirty truth here goes! Here are two examples of me getting rid of the dreaded backscatter problem. Trash in water or microbubbles, doesn't matter. This is what I do on Thursday/Friday night at the NADA shows when I go to my room at night to get the show fish photos ready for show on Saturday. I catch up on sleep after the trip. Sorry these are a bit small (to me). This was before I got smart and started working in higher resolutions for posting. Top is what came out of the camera, bottom is after edits ready for show/posting/etc. Same old setup, single flash on top.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/666/23...fa5a11ae_c.jpghttps://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5784/2...a029e30a_b.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5722/2...cd8ef97e_c.jpghttps://c1.staticflickr.com/1/568/23...fb93e081_b.jpg

Thanks Stan and Matt. Have some practice to do :).

Also Ricardo, you mention a diffuser (or modifier) to diffuse the light. Paul (pcsb23) used gutter guard mounted above the flash. I believe I can find his description of it in my homesteader somewhere.
Pat

That's some great light considering that is only one strobe Matt. Do you attribute that to the reflective bottom? I struggle sometimes because of my very white bottom floor. I feel like it absorbs the light and is harder to work with.

Great examples btw

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Second Hand Pat

Thanks Stan and Matt. Have some practice to do :).

Also Ricardo, you mention a diffuser (or modifier) to diffuse the light. Paul (pcsb23) used gutter guard mounted above the flash. I believe I can find his description of it in my homesteader somewhere.
Pat

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I'm not sure what gutter guard is but I have used regular paper, wax paper, cotton, and a slew of other things.

Ricardo, the tanks had a baby blue colored table cloth under and behind all of them during that show (Atlanta). I think it helped that I was shooting fish in a 20gal rather than something like a 75+. Light was more confined. Also I think it was just that the fish were further back in the tank allowing the light to be in front and over them to bounce off their entire side rather than have it directly over them. The Blue Diamond is at an angle so I had the flash up above and offset to the right a bit. This show area did receive a lot of natural sunlight, I just don't remember when these photos were taken they could of been taken after the sun was down.

It's just white plastic/vinyl U-Channel basically Ricardo. It can act as a nice bounce or reflector. I've seen people line the top of the tank with a section of this and stick two strobes in either end pointing up. They flash and reflect down into the tank giving some nice even light. It can work Pat. It takes a bit more positioning depending on width of the tank and location of fish than a stand alone and a diffuser on the end that you can move with ease but it definitely can work. Might work better in some aspects with real even light. Think of it doing exactly what a reflective umbrella would do with a flash. The small diffusers IMO are good for tighter shots or individual/smaller fish groups. The rain gutter would do much better for a FTS or for larger groups of fish. Still can work for individuals and gives you a large shooting space to let the fish move in and out of but you may not have the dramatic shadows that you see some of these shots. Some people like it. My vision is to show off the fish first and whats around them is secondary. Photos that have plants/wood/rocks the same brightness as the fish all the way across the photo just aren't as eye catching to me personally, still might be an excellent photo but just that contrast you see in the blue diamond shot above or Ricardo's last photo in the first and second post of this thread really pops the fish against the background. I'd be scared with more of a bounce setup that I would get to much light on the rockwall behind the fish or the silicone in the corners of my shot.
http://www.lowes.com/pd_12066-322-RW...d=3009950&pl=1

In hindsight looking at it now I should of cloned out that electrical cord in the blue diamond shot lol and maybe even that heater, shows you how much my post processing has grown in just 3 years.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Discus-n00b

Ricardo, the tanks had a baby blue colored table cloth under and behind all of them during that show (Atlanta). I think it helped that I was shooting fish in a 20gal rather than something like a 75+. Light was more confined. Also I think it was just that the fish were further back in the tank allowing the light to be in front and over them to bounce off their entire side rather than have it directly over them. The Blue Diamond is at an angle so I had the flash up above and offset to the right a bit. This show area did receive a lot of natural sunlight, I just don't remember when these photos were taken they could of been taken after the sun was down.

It's just white plastic/vinyl U-Channel basically Ricardo. It can act as a nice bounce or reflector. I've seen people line the top of the tank with a section of this and stick two strobes in either end pointing up. They flash and reflect down into the tank giving some nice even light. It can work Pat. It takes a bit more positioning depending on width of the tank and location of fish than a stand alone and a diffuser on the end that you can move with ease but it definitely can work. Might work better in some aspects with real even light. Think of it doing exactly what a reflective umbrella would do with a flash. The small diffusers IMO are good for tighter shots or individual/smaller fish groups. The rain gutter would do much better for a FTS or for larger groups of fish. Still can work for individuals and gives you a large shooting space to let the fish move in and out of but you may not have the dramatic shadows that you see some of these shots. Some people like it. My vision is to show off the fish first and whats around them is secondary. Photos that have plants/wood/rocks the same brightness as the fish all the way across the photo just aren't as eye catching to me personally, still might be an excellent photo but just that contrast you see in the blue diamond shot above or Ricardo's last photo in the first and second post of this thread really pops the fish against the background. I'd be scared with more of a bounce setup that I would get to much light on the rockwall behind the fish or the silicone in the corners of my shot.
http://www.lowes.com/pd_12066-322-RW...d=3009950&pl=1

In hindsight looking at it now I should of cloned out that electrical cord in the blue diamond shot lol and maybe even that heater, shows you how much my post processing has grown in just 3 years.

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yeah, that gutter guard would work for sure. I think the Gary Fong sphere was one of the best smaller modifiers, especially the insert white plastic. I wish I hadn't gotten rid of it.

I was wondering if anyone could possibly try to post some examples of shots they have taken with any of these type of setups? I understand that not everyone will have an off camera flash, but you can also do nature light shots and post here :)

I'd love to help you take better pictures, and participation/posting is the only way for me to help ;)

What a beautiful setup - one of the nicest looking BB tanks I've ever seen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pamdb33

What a beautiful setup - one of the nicest looking BB tanks I've ever seen.

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Why thank you very much Pam :)

A bit off topic, but if you check out my signature, you can take a look at the build thread of that tank or the 25 discus group growout thread as well :)

Thanks again.