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Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
Given the Intense interest in Wild discus...I propose we start a discussion here about wild Discus and the traits that make them desirable apart from Domestics and compared to each other.... Some of this is subjective........ But I think if we do this is an intelligent general way alot can be learned by those new to the wild side of things or leaning there.
I think a good way to do this is for hobbyists here to post their fish, list the prices paid, and point out what they feel is the strong points and weak points of their fish....WE can do this for each major type of wild and build a database.. No need to discuss where the fish came from...do that by Pm if you want.,
I encourage others to comment on the fish if they can as to strengths and weaknesses... understand this will happen if you post to this thread.
Thanks...
This thread Heckels only....
-al
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
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2 Attachment(s)
Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
Here were my Nhamunda Heckels, which were imported in from Canada thru Oliver Lucanus last year. I searched for an importer for years that shipped this exact variety and finally were able to get them in, they may have been the first ones in the US.
Now that Hans has established with Hudson we are now able to get many different strains that were only in books or internet before.
The Nhamunda variety of Heckels is the only one to have a blue body with brown striations, all other varieties are brown bodied with blue stripes. The more blue on the body, the more rare and prized. The pictures don't really do them justice as this was a newly setup tank that they were in for a couple weeks. I should have taken more pictures once they settled down and turned into bright sheens of blue but I also did not know one day I would come home to a tank full of dead fish from acid drop.
They were $250/ea for the striated ones, $400/ea for the blue moons or solid forehead/body. The blue on the fish brightened up much more when the pH went below 6 and water hardness below 60ppm. They are probably one of the more aggressive Heckels, once established not picky on food as mine take a variet of frozen recipe, frozen blood worms/mysis shrim and live black worms. I do not ever feed dry food to my discus, they are far too valuable to feed them what guppies eat ;)
The most important thing with these is to verify that the fish were caught in the northern part of the Nhamunda river, the further north the more blue the fish. For some reason, most likely diet they develop the solid blue body. I will be purchasing some more Blue Moon Nhamundas both from John and Hans...I want to see if there is a big difference between suppliers of Santarem and H&K. Pictures hopefully to come soon!
Mark
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
These are my Jatapu Heckels, a higher quality blue face/blue head variety. They were imported from Glaser in Germany for $125/ea at a Med size (3-4"). As you can see they were nicely colored in the head even at that size.
They are not as aggressive as the Nhamundas and having been nicely conditioned in Germany they came in taking pellets and flakes which I quickly changed to frozen food. But you can see where their bodies are dark brown with the blue stripes, opposite of the Nhamundas.
Mark
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
I bought this Blue Heckel wild, $40
You never know when you get some of these heckels that may have been transported in and around Manaus if they won't produce hybrids that will be unique. This is what it looked like.
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/l...es/heckel2.jpg
It turned out much different than I expected. I like the ring of blue finnage.
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/l...tes/heckel.jpg
I wake up in the morning with wild discus.
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/l...tes/reds-4.jpg
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
Bill, Mark and Melissa, thanks for sharing pictures of your prized fish. Maybe one day when I get my feet under me nice and firm with wilds I might try heckel too.
Bill, love the coffee cup :)
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
Wgtaylor, amazing transformation!!! That blue halo is beautiful!
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
I sure do like looking at other peoples wilds! I am bummed i missed out on the blue face heckels when John had them last. The timing was just bad for me. I really like the Jatapu Heckels.
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
m3h3c3
...but I also did not know one day I would come home to a tank full of dead fish from acid drop.
What happened? That sucks...
Thanks for the informative post.
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
Great Heckels everyone! I really miss mine. I have always wanted those solid blue headed Heckels, ever since I saw a pic of them in a TFH book....Your Heckel really blossomed Bill...love that mug!...Bill
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dave B
What happened? That sucks...
Thanks for the informative post.
Was using muriatic acid to keep the pH below 5.0. One day either city municipal water changed or I added too much to the tank and had a drastic drop in PH that basically wiped out my entire collection of Nhamunda Heckels. 2 made it back and that's what I have at this point. Expensive lesson learned! Mark
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
m3h3c3
Expensive lesson learned! Mark
That was a tough break Mark, thanks for sharing lessons learned. You have nice remaining heckels and hope more to come.
Bill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SoCalDiscusMama
Wgtaylor, amazing transformation!!! That blue halo is beautiful!
Thanks Melissa and yours are looking great. Talk your sis out of that camera!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Second Hand Pat
Bill, Mark and Melissa, thanks for sharing pictures of your prized fish. Maybe one day when I get my feet under me nice and firm with wilds I might try heckel too.
Bill, love the coffee cup :)
We have limits and can't keep every wild, darn. Thanks Pat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
William Palumbo
Great Heckels everyone! I really miss mine. I have always wanted those solid blue headed Heckels, ever since I saw a pic of them in a TFH book....Your Heckel really blossomed Bill...love that mug!...Bill
Thanks Bill, just toasted your comment with that cup of coffee.
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
very beautiful heckels everyone :). I'm getting some heckels soon :). questions guys : Is it ok to mix deference type heckels ? heard that mix batch could get fighting all the time?
Thanks
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hedut
very beautiful heckels everyone :). I'm getting some heckels soon :). questions guys : Is it ok to mix deference type heckels ? heard that mix batch could get fighting all the time?
Thanks
The Heckel color variants will not act any differently than one type or another and as to mixing them that is purely a matter of personal taste or goal you have in mind. Heckels are more sociable than Greens and haraldi ime.
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
Hi - I will be getting a group on wild heckels in a few weeks. Can this forum suggest the water parameters I need to prepare meanwhile or refer me to a thread that has discussed this question for wild heckels?
Also - does this forum have any suggestions on how to train wilds to eat flakes/pellets?
thx
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sfdiscus
Also - does this forum have any suggestions on how to train wilds to eat flakes/pellets?
thx
I have never had to train my wilds to eat any food I feed. From the start, I feed them exactly what my domestics get and they eat it. Personally I don't think wilds are that picky or difficult.
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sfdiscus
Hi - I will be getting a group on wild heckels in a few weeks. Can this forum suggest the water parameters I need to prepare meanwhile or refer me to a thread that has discussed this question for wild heckels?
Also - does this forum have any suggestions on how to train wilds to eat flakes/pellets?
thx
Hardness of water first, pH second. If you can keep the hardness of your water under 50-60ppm that will make the Heckels very happy. As long as the pH isn't above 7.0 I find all my wilds do fine, there isn't a lot of difference in colors or behavior between 5.5-7.0 unless you want to get serious about trying to breed the Heckels in which case you want the ph below 5 and hardness to be less than 20ppm.
As for food, I would never train discus to take dried pellets and flakes. Even the best processed, freeze dried food loses 50% of its nutritional value. Why do that to your prized fish...imo feed only high quality frozen food and live food. If you really want to do it, just add little bits of flakes/pellets to what you are feeding them now and slowly increase the amount of dried food until you wean them totally off frozen/live food.
Mark
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
m3h3c3
Hardness of water first, pH second. If you can keep the hardness of your water under 50-60ppm that will make the Heckels very happy. Mark
Hi - is the HM Digital TDS-EZ Meter/Tester the correct equipment to test for hardness (without using test strips)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
m3h3c3
Why do that to your prized fish...imo feed only high quality frozen food and live food..
Completely agreed - I am asking the question because I had assumed that I would be using an automatic feeder during vacation. Can this forum suggest how you handle vacations? I heard another thread suggests "starving" the fish before vacation so as to reduce ammonia.
thx all
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
Yes, a TDS meter is perfect for testing water hardness. TDS - total dissolved solids.
As for vacation, I had to 'hire' my father in law to feed my tanks :) lol. That is definitely a tricky question, I wouldn't starve the fish if they are not full grown adults, but they can go 2-3 days without feeding perfectly fine. I guess if there isn't anyone you could trust with baby sitting the fish maybe dried foods for a few days will have to do.
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
m3h3c3
If you can keep the hardness of your water under 50-60ppm that will make the Heckels very happy.
Mark
Hi - I used RO/Tap water 50/50 and water pillow. My TDS digital meter shows 300ppm and test strip shows GH of 75ppm.
1. Which of the 2 readings should I use?
2. I don't have any discus in the tank yet - but I haven't been able to get the TDS any lower. Can this forum give more suggestions?
Thanks.
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
That is way high for 50/50 RO to tap. The TDS will always be more accurate than strips. Did you calibrate the TDS meter? Did you test the pure RO water to see if the TDS was zero? If it isn't then you need to replace the membrane. Better yet get a RO plus DI unit.
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
m3h3c3
That is way high for 50/50 RO to tap. The TDS will always be more accurate than strips. Did you calibrate the TDS meter? Did you test the pure RO water to see if the TDS was zero? If it isn't then you need to replace the membrane. Better yet get a RO plus DI unit.
Hi - what TDS / GH level should I target for wild discus? thx
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
+1 on a RO unit with a DI on it. With that type of system you will have ZERO hardness. You will then have to figure out what to add back to it to make it fish friendly...Bill
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
TDS should be below 60ppm as previously posted. I usually see GH in degrees, not ppm so that's a new one. GH should below 3 degrees. I would check your tap and see what the ppm is and then the RO. Something is wierd here with your TDS being above 300 with 50/50.
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
m3h3c3
Did you test the pure RO water to see if the TDS was zero? If it isn't then you need to replace the membrane. Better yet get a RO plus DI unit.
Hi - I tested my tap water and TDS is 145ppm. It's strange why my tank water which is 50/50 has TDS of 375ppm+. What could be a reason? Should my course of action to make a major change with my tap water? Thank goodness there is no discus in there yet!
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
Here some Heckels sold to my friend Hector, think he's a very lucky guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79oTNsTKJII
Hans
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
You mentioned using a water pillow. Do you mean a water softning pillow? If so it has salt in it and that is why your tds is so high. Don't use the pillow just blend your tap and RO and see what the reading is. Also if you divide the 75 ppm by something like 17.5 or 19 (I'll need to check to find the exact conversion) you will get the degrees of hardness so your gh is about 4. The gh does not read the salt from the pillow like your tds meter.
Hans those are some nice looking heckels.
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
Dividing the TDS as expressed in ppm by ~17.5 is the right number to convert to degrees of GH to the best of my memory.
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
yogi
You mentioned using a water pillow. Do you mean a water softning pillow? If so it has salt in it and that is why your tds is so high. Don't use the pillow just blend your tap and RO and see what the reading is. Also if you divide the 75 ppm by something like 17.5 or 19 (I'll need to check to find the exact conversion) you will get the degrees of hardness so your gh is about 4. The gh does not read the salt from the pillow like your tds meter.
Thank you so much for all your advice. I have been PM'ing with other members, and we all diagnosed the issue collectively: My water pillow, plant supplements & discus buffer are the culprits that caused the jump in TDS between the tap/RO water to eventual tank water.
Now - the $64,000 question: If those 3 above are indeed the culprits and my GH remains low between 30ppm (when dividing my TDS by 17) to 75ppm (when using a test strip) - does that mean my water condition is good to go, despite the "distorted" TDS?
thx all
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
A high TDS value is a still a high TDS value whether it's made up of kitchen salt, carbonates or anything that's dissolved in the water, just like that mix of different minerals that normally give the GH of tap your water. I would also not use the pillow and mix just a little tapwater with the RO, leave the discus buffer and use as little plant supplement as I can. I have seen Heckels look good in water with higher TDS levels, but the nicest ones were always swimming in a tea-colured 'soup' of VERY soft and acidic water. As for the plants.............
Nandi
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
Here's my advice on easiest solution, if money and time is not a barrier use 100% RO water and only add Discus essentials. That is as close as you can get to replicating natural Heckel conditions. Dont worry about the pH as the driftwood/plants/nitrification cycle will keep it around 5.5-6.0 and over time even may stabilize below 5.0. When you do water changes with pure RO water it does not raise pH, it actually conforms to the current condition. Your Heckels will shine, whatever plants don't make it take them out and leave what survives. Lilly's do very well in soft acidic water and grow to provide the perfect shade for discus.
Adding tap water raises the Kh to stabilize pH, especially if you are adding buffer to lower ph. But if you are using pure RO water it is not as essential to add any tap water at all.
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
I second the suggestion to use only 100% RO water. It's what I'm doing. The pH stabilizes at about 5.3 for me and the Heckels are loving it!
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
Okay, I'm going to add to this thread, wanting to share our experience (my wife and I) with these wonderfull fish.
We keep our heckels in straight RO (sometimes I adjust with discus minerals) and I never use tap water ( we live in an old building and there could be led piping somewhere in the distribution system). The RO is usually kept for 24 hours to bring it up to room temperature.
The Heckels are fed a varied diet of top quality flakes (all fish or vegetable based protein) and frozen bloodwoorms previously thawed. They are never feed beefheart, however, this is only how we keep them and this is not a golden rule nor is this said in order to open a debate.
They are treated for internal and external parasites, howver when newly imported they tend to be very nervous and can react badly to medication, so one must always be carefull.
Weaknesses : When first imported they are extremely skitttish and are prone to bouts of panic. In time they do overcome this but any shadows or sudden mouvements in front of the tank must be avoided. I would recommend not to move new Heckels from tank to tank for the first six months at least.No Heckel is 100% parasite free, however kept in optimum conditions the appear to be very resisitant. They should always be kept in a group and I would advise to keep only Heckels on their own with no other type of discus.
http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/a...y/P1020557.jpg
Closeup of an Abacaxis Heckel, approx. 7-8 years in our possesion.
http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/a...y/P1020558.jpg
Namundha Heckel, approx. 4-5 years
http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/a...y/P1020560.jpg
Namundha in foreground, Abacaxis bickering in background (rivals ?)
http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/a...y/P1020563.jpg
Namundha in foreground, Abacaxis, Mari-Mari and Unini.
http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/a...y/P1020568.jpg
Group shot.
http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/a...y/P1020576.jpg
Feeding time, Mari-Mari & Abacaxis
http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/a...y/P1020577.jpg
Mari-Mari, 3-4 years in our keeping
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
Dynomite looking fish, matey!...Excellent job!.....Gary
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
yogi
You mentioned using a water pillow. Do you mean a water softning pillow? If so it has salt in it and that is why your tds is so high. Don't use the pillow just blend your tap and RO and see what the reading is.
Bingo - I do use water pillow - thx for diagnosing the issue for me!
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
Be sure you know what the water chemistry your Heckels have been kept in before you begin to make any changes.
I find Heckels can be stepped down to nearly pure RO water in 50% water changes every 3 or 4 days until it is finally almost totally lacking in dissolved solids; >35 ppm.
I find I can use straight RO water with potted plants as long as there is a timed release fertilizer placed in the bottom of the potting container. I do not use a container with drainage holes and I use FloraBase as the potting substrate covered with about 1/2 inch of pure quartz sand. The some small amounts of the potted plant fertilizers will eventually get into the water column but not enough to worry about if you are making regular, large fresh water changes. If the TDS stays below 30 ppm you will not see any difference between their colors at 30 vs 15 ppm TDS.. Actually, Heckels will do just fine at a TDS up to 50 ppm as long as the ratio of carbonates and sulfates are about the same. My tap water has such a balance and it works fine as my source of minerals when mixed 1 part tap water to 9 parts RO. That works out to be about 20 ppm in my case. Fertilizers in the pots only with water changes seems to remain pretty close to 30 ppm TDS
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
Hi - I heard that wild discuses prefer low light - can you pls make a recommendation? My wild discuses seem to swim around more when the lites are off. thx
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sfdiscus
Hi - I heard that wild discuses prefer low light - can you pls make a recommendation? My wild discuses seem to swim around more when the lites are off. thx
Wild Discus can do quite well in brightly lighted tanks. They probably do prefer less intense lighting but they are also quite adaptable to varying lighting. If one chose to use strong lighting it is best to have some broad leaved floating lily leaves or other means to provide somewhat shaded areas. That way they have choices of where they want to be. Particularly after a heavy feeding, Discus will often seek an area of shade to digest their meal but when they are in a feeding frenzy they do not seem to care how brightly lighted the tank is.
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Re: Wild Discus Tech Notes 1... Heckels...The basics and More....
I agree with Larry. on the wild tanks with bright lights I will put some potted plants on top of the tank cover to give some shaded areas, some stay near the shade some stay out in well light areas.