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Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
Those of us who are attempting to raise albinos are finding that their needs are substantially different from their normal-colored cousins. We, the hobbyists, have yet to learn what it takes to see the fry attach to their albino parents. Bob Tools and I believe it takes a joint effort, and so we are communicating between ourselves what we have tried, heard of, or observed. We'd both like to extend an invitation to any interested albino-keepers to join us in this effort. If you are interested in breeding albinos, if you have tried and failed, or if you have had some success, please share your information with us! We are interested in artificial and fostering methods that involve albino fry as well. You can pm us or post here. All positive developments that arise from this joint effort and the methods used will be posted on this forum.
Martha
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
This was a great idea Martha, putting this out there to gather information and techniques from those throughout the forum that have had success breeding Albinos and raising their fry. As Martha had stated, she and I have been PMing each other back and forth trying to get fry from our Albino pairs to attach the the parents and last more then just a few days. We seem to have no problems getting our pairs to spawn successfully, which results in wigglers and then free swimmers but the road ends there. We have tried the usual lowering of the water level, removing the sponge, fostering, covering all sides of the tank in light and dark colors, Methylene Blue to help the parents stand out to attract the fry. Luckily the pairs keep spawning give us several opportunities to get this right. My pair laid eggs again yesterday and we are open to suggestions from those that have been successful. Thanks in advance for any and all input. Martha and I will be very greatful.
Bob
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
I have had some success by lowering the water, covering the sides and top in dark colors, allowing just a bit of room light, adding mb during the first few days of free-swimming to block out light, and feeding from day one. Unfortunately, the pair ate two small batches of week-old + fry. The first time they laid eggs and then ate the fry, and the second time, as I watched for them to lay eggs, they ate the fry first. :mad: I suspect there weren't enough fry for them to bother with. This pair are taking a brief (I hope) break from spawning.
My limited experience suggests that the fry will attach to albino parents, but it takes 5 days or so. Unless they are fed from the first day of free-swimming, they starve.
So, who's working with albino pairs and what have your experiences been?
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
hi Martha,
For Albino strains should cover the tank's sides in lighter tone color.
Contrast
a contrast must be created between the surrondings and parent fishes...few days old fry are so attracted to whatever is blacker or of the dark tone.therefore beside the color and the tone of the walss and the bottom of the tank also must be kept clean and free of debris to prevent the fry wandering off from the parent.
Cheers
Francis:)
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
Quote:
Originally Posted by
seanyuki
hi Martha,
For Albino strains should cover the tank's sides in lighter tone color.
Contrast
a contrast must be created between the surrondings and parent fishes...few days old fry are so attracted to whatever is blacker or of the dark tone.therefore beside the color and the tone of the walss and the bottom of the tank also must be kept clean and free of debris to prevent the fry wandering off from the parent.
Cheers
Francis:)
I've certainly heard this theory, but I haven't heard it from anyone who had success with it. Do you know of someone who has? I spoke with a biologist prof. friend of mine and he thought that albinos probably have a lot of trouble seeing in the light - he thought it would be like us looking into the sun. Hense, the dark. There is still a contrast when the tank is dark - a reverse contrast.
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
I am looking forward to keeping up with this post.
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
Hi Martha,
As for the light....try using a blue bulb not those white ones as the fry are so sensitive to light.....just my 2 cents.
Cheers
Francis:)
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
Will post after successful breeding
Francis:)
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
Francis,
You quote that it can take 10-14 days for the fry to attach. How can they stay alive that long if not feeding off the parents ? That is my problem here. I get to free swimmers on every spawn but the fry never attach and die of one by one of starvation. You mentioned using a blue bulb rather then white. I have been contemplating using one of those black bulbs. What do you think ?
Bob
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
Has anyone tried or considered removing them from the parents and raising them artificially? With my pair of ALSS's the wrigglers start falling off the cone almost immediatly after the spawn. The parents don't pay any attention to the fallen ones so I think my only chance for success will be to raise them myself, if the fallen ones are even strong enough to survive.
Kacey
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
Quote:
Originally Posted by
seanyuki
breeding tanks-
tanks regardless of size does not matter, as long as you're convenience with it.
water level-
fill up as much water as you can afford. as long as it is safe and clean for your pair. do daily 50% WC will be sufficent.
aireation-
should be at its minimum. like 20% of your normal aireation and place the airstone as far away from your pair's suspected spawn area.(place where they clean up most)
feeding-
, live tubifex worms is a good alternative since some don't beleive or can't afford pro-more but those worms need to be clean up really clean. usually i start feeding them the worms 3days after i kept n cleaned those worms.
just feed your pair once a day.
observation-
as the grand master breeder once adviced me, LEAVE THEM ALONE!!! just check if there are any eggs before you feed and before WC.
spawn !!!-
cover the eggs with wire mesh as what you might do later can frighten them and eat up the eggs.
cover the front part of the tank using white paper about 7"-10" wide from top to bottom of tank.
no WC, NO PEEPING ! LEAVE THEM ALONE! wait until 3rd day than peep. if no wrigglers, it's ok, try again. if there is, LEAVE THEM ALONE ! again for another 3days. by then you will notice free swimmers everywhere swimming aimlessly. with the small light bulb switch on 24hrs and hope for lady luck to be by your side , some frys will start to attach to pair. slowly . they are not like ormal frys. even the intermediates will attached aerlier. it can take the albinos 10-14days from eggs to attached frys !!
Francis:)
Some interesting background, Francis, but I don't agree with all of it.
IMO: breeding tank size DOES matter. The larger the footprint, the less likely albino fry will find their parents.
Water level - You say "fill up." IMO the higher the water level the less likely albino fry will find their parents.
Aeration, I suspect, should not be even 20% when the albino fry go free-swimming.
Feeding - live tubifex worms are suspected of harbouring organisms that can cause substantial problems for our fish. I do not recommend them. I don't think they can be cleaned enough to ever consider them safe.
Re Covering the Eggs - I would do that only with known egg-eaters. Otherwise, I see no point.
Covering the front of the tank - OK, but what do you recommend for the rest of the tank?
How long are you suggesting we go without a wc?
Like Bob mentioned, you can't leave them alone for a few days and expect there to be any fry.
The only ideas you mention that specifically concern albinos is the white paper on the front of the glass. There's more to it, I'm afraid. :) Do you have a pair yet Francis? I know you bought some albinos a while back.
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
I tried to raise the last batch artificially but I was unsuccessful. They all died by day three. It may be because I forgot to cut out the light the tank was receiving from above, and the tank received a lot! I've never raised artificially, and learning on albino fry is probably not the best of ideas. :p
Bob - is a black bulb the same as a black light? Are you thinking about it because it gives off less light?
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mmorris
I tried to raise the last batch artificially but I was unsuccessful. They all died by day three. It may be because I forgot to cut out the light the tank was receiving from above, and the tank received a lot! I've never raised artificially, and learning on albino fry is probably not the best of ideas. :p
Bob - is a black bulb the same as a black light? Are you thinking about it because it gives off less light?
Yes Martha its the same as a black light. It does kind of give off a blueish light and was thinking it may make the male and female stand out without giving off brightness in the tank.
Bob
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
I havent tried it yet, but can PH be a factor?
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
That might be worth trying Bob. Can you explain what you were thinking, Ed? Different ph requirements for albinos? I hadn't thought of ph...
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
Hi Martha,
The water level part.....fill to the top when they are in a breeding tank b4 they start laying the eggs......when the eggs are attached to the cone then lower the water level till height reaches the parent top fin.
Breeding tank size.....start with big and use a tank divider later to force the frys move towards the parents....harder to manouve a tank divider in a small tank.
Feeding:anyway we cannot find live tubifex here whereas other part of the world uses them.
Aeration.....depending yr pump....small pump kept to its minimum not so much current in the tank.....when fry are free swimming can increased the airflow in order to push the fry towards the parents.
Egg guard:the choice is yours
Covering the tank.....all depends where your tank is located.....my breeding tanks are painted with a light tone....as only need to cover the front part.
water change....IMO .48 hours after frys are free swimming by doing on the first day may frighten the parents and frys.
Of couse there more to it in breeding albino discus.....cannot put everything in one post......perhaps more people could give some advice too.
info that I got here are talking with friends ........my albino are still small so I decide to breed them later.
Cheers
Francis:)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mmorris
Some interesting background, Francis, but I don't agree with all of it.
IMO: breeding tank size DOES matter. The larger the footprint, the less likely albino fry will find their parents.
Water level - You say "fill up." IMO the higher the water level the less likely albino fry will find their parents.Aeration, I suspect, should not be even 20% when the albino fry go free-swimming.
Feeding - live tubifex worms are suspected of harbouring organisms that can cause substantial problems for our fish. I do not recommend them. I don't think they can be cleaned enough to ever consider them safe.
Re Covering the Eggs - I would do that only with known egg-eaters. Otherwise, I see no point.
Covering the front of the tank - OK, but what do you recommend for the rest of the tank?
How long are you suggesting we go without a wc?
Like Bob mentioned, you can't leave them alone for a few days and expect there to be any fry.
The only ideas you mention that specifically concern albinos is the white paper on the front of the glass. There's more to it, I'm afraid. :) Do you have a pair yet Francis? I know you bought some albinos a while back.
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4 Attachment(s)
Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
My albino goldens with fry. No secrets here. I must have gotten lucky. Lowered water level. Kept tank dim and about 25-30 out of 80+ wigglers attached.
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
Beautiful albino pair.. Do they have grape eyes or rabbit albino eyes ???
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
Martha, I think Francis and your friend are onto something... I used to brooder raise albino woodducks.. I used a pink light bulb otherwise they would die in a few days from being blinded.. Their eyes were highly sensitive to light.. Try using a low wattage pink bulb and illumiate a portion of the tank.. Can buy in grocery store.
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
Albino Breeding Experience:
Pair: Albino Royal Blue. From CoDiscus (Mike Beals)-purchased 12/20/08.
Tank: 30 gal long. Clear glass. Normal flourescent light-sponge filter.
Water: Tap. pH: 7 TDS: 160 Temp: 84 No aging. Change 30% every other day
Spawn #1-14: No fertilized eggs
Spawn #15: 60% hatch- eaten on day 4
Spawn #18: cone and eggs transferred to tank with proven SS/Turq pair. Cone screened. Clear glass. Lignt on 24 hours. 70% hatch. 100 free swimmers. 30 gal long, water lowered to eight inches, replaced sponge filter with air stone. Partitioned tank in half with white styrofoam cut from shipping box. 70 fry attached with 24 hours. Water raised, partition removed, sponge filter added. Water change: Tap, unaged, treated with Prime, 50% per day(25%X2)
Day 13 free swimming: First food: frozen BBS. Day 14: frozen daphnia. Day 16: shaved frozen blood worms. Day 18: removed from foster parents.
Spawn #20: Cone screened on day 2.- kept with albino parents. Clear
glass, light on 24 hrs. 60% hatch, 80 free swimmers. Same approach as Spawn #18 above. About 45 fry attached by 48 hours. Same feeding regimen. About 35 surviving at about two months of age.
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
Good stuff Noog,,, thx
Ed
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
Quote:
Originally Posted by
noogiec
Albino Breeding Experience:
Pair: Albino Royal Blue. From CoDiscus (Mike Beals)-purchased 12/20/08.
Tank: 30 gal long. Clear glass. Normal flourescent light-sponge filter.
Water: Tap. pH: 7 TDS: 160 Temp: 84 No aging. Change 30% every other day
Spawn #1-14: No fertilized eggs
Spawn #15: 60% hatch- eaten on day 4
Spawn #18: cone and eggs transferred to tank with proven SS/Turq pair. Cone screened. Clear glass. Lignt on 24 hours. 70% hatch. 100 free swimmers. 30 gal long, water lowered to eight inches, replaced sponge filter with air stone. Partitioned tank in half with white styrofoam cut from shipping box. 70 fry attached with 24 hours. Water raised, partition removed, sponge filter added. Water change: Tap, unaged, treated with Prime, 50% per day(25%X2)
Day 13 free swimming: First food: frozen BBS. Day 14: frozen daphnia. Day 16: shaved frozen blood worms. Day 18: removed from foster parents.
Spawn #20: Cone screened on day 2.- kept with albino parents. Clear
glass, light on 24 hrs. 60% hatch, 80 free swimmers. Same approach as Spawn #18 above. About 45 fry attached by 48 hours. Same feeding regimen. About 35 surviving at about two months of age.
Noog, Im assuming that your airstone and heater are on the partioned side with the free swimmers and parents ?
Bob
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
Bob:
Yes, airstone and heater are on fish side. With the lowered water level and partition, the fish were actually in about seven gallons of water for attachment and a few days after. I gradually upped the water level over several days. For water changes, I actually did the changes on the empty half of the tank to minimize disruption of parents and fry. There was enough water flow around the edges of the partition to slowly equalize the water level. But this created another problem: With each water change, one or two fry would follow the flow of water thru small gaps along the edge of the partition and end up on the wrong side of the tank. I used a turkey baster to put them back. Problem #2: The styrofoam partition created a temperature difference between sides (4-5 degrees). Since some of the fry were escaping during water changes, I put another heater on the empty side. (Interesting side note: Over the course of 24-48 hours, I fished at least 10-12 fry out of the cool side- I couldn't detect any negative effects from being exposed to the temp change.
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
Some great details, Noo. Thanks for that. So, we have two reported successes with attachments. The interesting questions, IMO, are: are your pairs exceptional - ie., are the fry genetically predisposed to attach? Or, are your water conditions perfect for albinos? Thirdly, did luck play the biggest role? The way to find out is if you and others can duplicate your conditions and so the more specific the information you give us, the better we will be able to do that. Noo: what happened to spawn 16, 17 and 19? Please tell us about the wattage of your lighting and where the light was placed. How did you cover/paint the sides and/or top? Are the fry two months old now? Have you had batches of eggs since and if so, what were the results?
Mike: can you be more specific? What were your other experiences with this pair? It would be interesting to see if there are some common denominators between you and noo.
Styrefoam is a good idea for a divider. I have tried other dividers but the fry got around them really easily.
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
M:
I think luck and patience play big roles (see below). Also reducing the "wandering" space for the fry may help with some pairs.
Spawn 16: Tried to foster with a LSS female (prior successful spawn of her own)- no signif. attachment, eaten within two days.
Spawn 17: Tried to foster with the SS/red turq pair used above for Spawn 18- did not partition- initially fairly good attachment, but fry kept wandering around 30 long tank-collecting in upper corners- foster parents not very good at keeping fry together- male ate about 80% on day 4-the rest gone the next day.
Spawn19: Tried to foster with a red melon pair. Good attachment. Eaten on free-swimming day four.
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
M:
Cheap flourescent strip light: 15 watt bulb, 24 hours
Clear glass- no paint or covering. Quite a bit of algae grows over time-I don't wipe glass after they spawn.
Albino parents started fighting just before I removed Spawn 20 to another tank. A few days later the male stopped eating and developed white poop- treated with metronidazole and temp of 92 for five days. After about 10 days total, male began eating again- gave them a few feeding of blood worms soaked in metronidazole-seem to be doing ok. Spawned again last Tuesday-#21- Male ate half of the eggs as they were laid- no fertilization- remaing eggs eaten the next day
Spawns 18 and 20- about 7 and 9 weeks old. Luck and Patience!
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
Quote:
Originally Posted by
noogiec
... but fry kept wandering around 30 long tank-collecting in upper corners- foster parents not very good at keeping fry together.
This has been my experience - the parents make no effort to keep the fry together. The details are great, Noo, and it seems I'm not the only one who keeps records!
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
Martha:
Once I got beyond two or three pairs, I realized my memory was not good enough to keep track of what everyone was doing-so I started writing things down. My only regret is not having a digital camera to record the spawns, wrigglers and free swimmers. As the albino fry are developing, some interesting patterns are emerging.
One other comment: compared to other fry, it is my impression that the albino fry are slower growers than others I have had ( red turq, LSS ).
noogie
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
Two or three pairs of albinos? Can you share any other interesting patterns?
Mike, how are your fry getting on? Are they still with the parents? I'd love to see some more pics.
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
I have three pair, but one pair doesn't know it yet, and the male of another pair isn't making runs over the eggs. Otherwise, he's a wonderful parent! :mad:
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MostlyDiscus
I havent tried it yet, but can PH be a factor?
Ed,
Very good point, lower the ph this will help.
Cliff
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mmorris
I have three pair, but one pair doesn't know it yet, and the male of another pair isn't making runs over the eggs. Otherwise, he's a wonderful parent! :mad:
I had five pairs back in 2004 to 2005 and they produce mostly small batches and once in
awhile batches of 75 fry.
Cliff
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
Will lowering the ph help specifically albinos, or fry in general? How does it help albinos? Lower it how far? Did any of the fry attach when you had the pairs? Details, please. :)
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
Margaret:
Albino update:
Spawn# 22: Male once again ate eggs shortly after laying. Luck and Patience. Male seems to be over "intestinal problem". I hope the Metronidizole didn't turn him into a permanent egg-eater, or worse, sterilize him. (Maybe it was the high heat)
Interesting observations:
Both parents seem to have vision problems, ie., they "miss" the food. It takes a few tries to hit blood worms or brine shrimp. About 50% of the fry have the same problem- the other 50% are fine.
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
Continued from above:
The parents have a peach base color with no visible stress bars.
The fry have a very light lemon base color at 8-10 weeks. About 60% are showing stress bars, but the bars actually show as lines devoid of the base color- thus they look white relative to the rest of the body. I think someone may have referred to this as "reverse" stress bars- kind of an interesting look- we'll see if the bars persist.
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
Sorry: Somehow typed Margaret instead of Martha.
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Re: Albino Breeding `Think Tank'
Quite alright, and thanks for the update. I've been trying to figure out if my male albino turq might, in fact, be a female. Five months now and he/she still won't make passes. My golden albinos are still on a break. Wish they'd get back at it, but it is a well-earned break. Can you post some pics?