Nutritional value

Hi Al, what is in your opinion of the nutritional value between your FDBW and blood worms. The set of discus that I order through Kenny really loves both. How often or how much would you feed them to your discus. I have a set of ten. I got some answer to other post on the blood worms about 5 minutes. My regiment is I've been giving flakes/pellets (Hans Discus Flakes Colbalt, Beef Heart flakes from Bill, and Forrest pellets) in the morning which they are not too crazy about at this point, but will continue to pursue it and in the evening I give about 4 cubes of blood worms (used the feeder cone) and about the same with the FDBW attach to side wall of aquarium or let free floating.

When I first got the discus, I got a spike of ammonia and nitrites so the advise from Kenny and LFS is to ease up on feeding, however things are going back to normal, especially since I used some Tetra Safestart plus, which I was skeptical about but it is working. I also use Prime to lessen the effect on the fish which has help. All the discus look great even a pair that I though were being shy actually started to lay eggs last night. No signs of stress.

Just need some advise on knowing what to feed 10 discus and the amount so that I'm not over feeding too much. I'll also be adding some other non discus fish in at a later date. I do have some bushy nose plecos and a couple of coriers, I defenitly need more cories, but don't want to put in until tanks is in good shape.

Thanks
Linda

As with all things on Simply this as been discussed before.

-john

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...HE-NAKED-TRUTH

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Originally Posted by John_Nicholson

As with all things on Simply this as been discussed before.

-john

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...HE-NAKED-TRUTH

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Thanks John for your informative answer. But it did not answer my question - My Question was What is the nutritional value between of FDBW (Al's formula) and Bloodworms and with 10 discus how much can I feed them of each.

A little history here. I'm trying to start over with a new set and would like not to fall into the trap of feeding too much and the wrong foods. Just to let you and everyone know I have been successful in having discus, however life situations have cause me to shut down and tend to family matters that have been more pressing. I'm not one to blurt out my personal life, however I have been dealing with a lot, such as my oldest son with a brain tumor and severe seizure for the past two years and in out of the hospital several times. I got custody of my 16 year old granddaughter who is Developmentally challenge and autism who literally did not do anything for herself 3 years ago, and I also have a younger son who is severely autistic with major aggression and last year was dealing with a caretaker who totally did not take care of him and left me picking up his slack.

I also moved and when I did I went to use municipal water and found that it was high in phosphate, couple with the types of foods I found myself with more work then I could handle at the time. So I decided it was time to shut down until I could get a better handle on things. So now I use RO/DI water, which I also use for my saltwater tank, I use it for the 220 discus tank using RO right and up the filter system with better filtration.

So where I appreciate your response, I really would like to get a good handle on what to feed my discus and continue to keep them healthy. I've included some pictures of my last group of discus before I shut down. I don't think they were too shabby.

I just want to let Simply Discus know I value all your post and opinion, I don't ask very many question but when I do I'm like everyone else would like to get info. I have research this site thoroughly and have gotten good info and some I go with my gut instinct which usually goes well for me as well.

http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/...ps50f0f976.jpg

http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/...ps27c86f42.jpg

http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/...ps33687172.jpg

Thanks

Well if you want to be the best that you can be then siphon out the gravel and start feeding a good beef heart mix that you make yourself. It in my opinion is far and away the best food for discus. It has been used since the '60's with great success. On the nutritional value of the other foods you asked about I cannot give you specifics. That is why I posted the link to the other thread. It had at least some of the info that you were looking fir.

Also your fish look nice.

-john

I don't know if this makes any sense, but my thought would be the only true test is to take fry from the same parents and raise them side by side feeding one group solely bloodworms and the other BH and another something else or a combo (except bloodworms) in order to come to any long standing conclusion. Again, that is just how I think and may actually have no bearing whatsoever.

Edt: I agree they look great.

compare the freeze black worms to freeze dried bloodworms.. apples to apples.. look at the labels.. and you will have your answer..

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Originally Posted by John_Nicholson

Well if you want to be the best that you can be then siphon out the gravel and start feeding a good beef heart mix that you make yourself. It in my opinion is far and away the best food for discus. It has been used since the '60's with great success. On the nutritional value of the other foods you asked about I cannot give you specifics. That is why I posted the link to the other thread. It had at least some of the info that you were looking fir.

Also your fish look nice.

-john

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Again I appreciate you pointing me to that post which I read and it was informative. I do agree that the beef heart is very good for the Discus, however that what I was using on my last group was a home beef heart mixture. However it makes a mess and I was trying avoid it this time. That's why I bought Bills BH flakes, I also have develop a vacuum system to easily clean the gravel which is a very thin coat on the bottom to where its almost bare-bottom, can't deal with just strict BB, sorry.

All I want to know if Al's FDBW have a good nutritional value vs. Bloodworms cause they go crazy for them and would like to maybe feed them more of that then the bloodworms which they also go crazy for. I want to order more of his worms but want to figure out how much.

Thanks again

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Originally Posted by Skip

compare the freeze black worms to freeze dried bloodworms.. apples to apples.. look at the labels.. and you will have your answer..

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Thanks Skip, here what I come up with

Al's FDBW
Freeze Dried Australian Blackworms have an excellent nutritional profile..and have a high protein to
fat ratio: [ Dry weight] Crude Protein 66.35% Crude Fat 13.87% Crude Fiber 0.24% Moisture 3%

SFBW
Ingredients:
Bloodworms*, Water and Xanthan Gum.
*Bloodworms are a natural product that may cause allerigic reaction in some people.
Guaranteed Analysis:
Protein 4.0% min
Fat 0.4% min
Fiber 0.7% max
Moisture 95.0% max


Hikari
Ingredients: Blood Worms, Water, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Source of Vitamin B6), L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (Stabilized Vitamin C), Carotene, Riboflavin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Biotin, Choline Chloride, Folic Acid, Calcium Pantothenate, Inositol, Niacin.
Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein 6.0% min
Crude Fat 0.5% min
Crude Fiber 0.9% max
Moisture 89.0% max
Phosphorous 0.01% min

Again thanks Skip good advise, so I thought I pull off the two most common used to get an idea and was able fine on Al's website his values. Hopes this helps others too.

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All I want to know if Al's FDBW have a good nutritional value vs. Bloodworms cause they go crazy for them and would like to maybe feed them more of that then the bloodworms which they also go crazy for. I want to order more of his worms but want to figure out how much

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Bloodworms vs blackworms vs beefheart. IMO, protein is protein, and as long as it is highly digestible for the fish and they get enough of it, it really shouldn't matter. Water quality is always going to be of the utmost importance in regards to good growth rates, and what you feed can impact the water quality quite a bit. I have raised many fish without beefheart, and do not have the problem with them topping out at 5", but I do not feed any one thing exclusively.

Any fish fed solely one food, especially when young, can lead to it's refusal to eat other foods and is not a good practice. Bloodworms do seem to be one of the easier foods for fish to become "addicted" too, and as such can get a bad rap. I primarily only feed bloodworms to my breeding pairs when I will not be able to do a water change within a reasonable amount of time after feeding (aka in the morning before work). Beefheart seems to be the worse at fouling the water if left uneaten for any period of time, but it has the major advantage of also being the most economical. Beefheart mixes can be formulated to also be close to a complete diet. FDBW's seem to be a little bit of both worlds ime, and as so I feed them as a staple.

But the question is, if you are this concerned about the well being of your fish to ask questions about their diet, why do you refuse to remove the gravel from your tank? As I said earlier, water quality is the most important aspect of raising large, healthy fish, and in comparison slight variances in diet often will not matter in the long run.

Thanks for everyone's input and opinion, however found the answer to my question thanks to Skip leading me in the right directions. I also found the value for the freeze dried bloodworms a well.

This info was taken from their website.
Omega One Blood Worms are genuine blood worms, not mosquito larvae, which means their color enhancing ability is superb. Their high protein content makes them particularly effective as a conditioning food for breeding fish. These premium, bacteria-free, blood worms are excellent for discus and all other freshwater fish.

Sizes Available:
.46oz (13g), .96oz (27g)
Ingredients:
Blood Worms, Vitamin E Supplement

Guaranteed Analysis:
Min. Crude Protein….55%
Min. Crude Fat………..3%
Max. Crude Fiber…….5%
Max. Moisture………. 5%

Again thanks for the input and hope this helps others new and old to the trade.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nc0gnet0

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Bloodworms vs blackworms vs beefheart. IMO, protein is protein, and as long as it is highly digestible for the fish and they get enough of it, it really shouldn't matter. Water quality is always going to be of the utmost importance in regards to good growth rates, and what you feed can impact the water quality quite a bit. I have raised many fish without beefheart, and do not have the problem with them topping out at 5", but I do not feed any one thing exclusively.

Any fish fed solely one food, especially when young, can lead to it's refusal to eat other foods and is not a good practice. Bloodworms do seem to be one of the easier foods for fish to become "addicted" too, and as such can get a bad rap. I primarily only feed bloodworms to my breeding pairs when I will not be able to do a water change within a reasonable amount of time after feeding (aka in the morning before work). Beefheart seems to be the worse at fouling the water if left uneaten for any period of time, but it has the major advantage of also being the most economical. Beefheart mixes can be formulated to also be close to a complete diet. FDBW's seem to be a little bit of both worlds ime, and as so I feed them as a staple.

But the question is, if you are this concerned about the well being of your fish to ask questions about their diet, why do you refuse to remove the gravel from your tank? As I said earlier, water quality is the most important aspect of raising large, healthy fish, and in comparison slight variances in diet often will not matter in the long run.

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Thanks for your input, as for my concern for the well being for my discus, I have done bare bottom, sand and my personal preference is the gravel as I said before it is a very thin layer to when I have my bottom feeders and vacuum on a regular basis it has worked. I feel that I have my tank set up for my personal preference which is no different then people who want a planted tank or bare bottom, as you can see in post #3 I don't think my discus were too shabby.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by treemanone2003

I don't know if this makes any sense, but my thought would be the only true test is to take fry from the same parents and raise them side by side feeding one group solely bloodworms and the other BH and another something else or a combo (except bloodworms) in order to come to any long standing conclusion. Again, that is just how I think and may actually have no bearing whatsoever.

Edt: I agree they look great.

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That would make an interesting test, although not interested in raising anymore discus just want to enjoy the ones I have.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LKSDiscus

Thanks for your input, as for my concern for the well being for my discus, I have done bare bottom, sand and my personal preference is the gravel as I said before it is a very thin layer to when I have my bottom feeders and vacuum on a regular basis it has worked. I feel that I have my tank set up for my personal preference which is no different then people who want a planted tank or bare bottom, as you can see in post #3 I don't think my discus were too shabby.

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Fair enough, nice lighthouse btw.

LKS,

Missing from the formulas above ares supplemental vitamins A, B, C, D, and vegetation- spirulina, kelp. Bill's beefheart flake with pro growth has over 50% protein, but also includes some algae and a mix of vitamins. John (and many others) feeds a home made beefheart mix that contains the high protein plus vitamins and greens.

It would be good to supplement the worms with other foods containing vitamins and greens like spirulina. A commercial food that is high in protein (over 50%) that also contains the vitamins and greens is rare. Cobalt Beefheart flakes have all the elements, but I think protein is below 50%.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LKSDiscus

Thanks for everyone's input and opinion, however found the answer to my question thanks to Skip leading me in the right directions. I also found the value for the freeze dried bloodworms a well.

This info was taken from their website.
Omega One Blood Worms are genuine blood worms, not mosquito larvae, which means their color enhancing ability is superb. Their high protein content makes them particularly effective as a conditioning food for breeding fish. These premium, bacteria-free, blood worms are excellent for discus and all other freshwater fish.

Sizes Available:
.46oz (13g), .96oz (27g)
Ingredients:
Blood Worms, Vitamin E Supplement

Guaranteed Analysis:
Min. Crude Protein….55%
Min. Crude Fat………..3%
Max. Crude Fiber…….5%
Max. Moisture………. 5%

Again thanks for the input and hope this helps others new and old to the trade.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by OC Discus

LKS,

Missing from the formulas above ares supplemental vitamins A, B, C, D, and vegetation- spirulina, kelp. Bill's beefheart flake with pro growth has over 50% protein, but also includes some algae and a mix of vitamins. John (and many others) feeds a home made beefheart mix that contains the high protein plus vitamins and greens.

It would be good to supplement the worms with other foods containing vitamins and greens like spirulina. A commercial food that is high in protein (over 50%) that also contains the vitamins and greens is rare. Cobalt Beefheart flakes have all the elements, but I think protein is below 50%.

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I fully agreed, along with BW, FDBW, I also give the flakes mention above, I give the ON Cichlid Vegi Pellets, occassionally Hikari Seaweed Extreme. Also I prepared a Brine Shrimp, Mysis Shrimp seafood mix with other frozen food that I use for my marine tank, I also include in this mix and also at time soak both BW and FDBW with Selcon, Vita Chem Garlic Guard, Vitamin C also with a dose of Beta Gluten. This will be a varied diet once I get them though there acclimation period. I only had this set of Discus for little more then a week. I also do not feed the pellet too much at this point as not to over feed right now as only have a couple of cory cats in the tank.

Guys,
I have to apologize here, I was off the forum the last few weeks.. I take a "vacation" of sorts in the Fall and Spring and help a friend with his landscape business with its annual cleanups...Its like running a marathon.

Future Note.. Please Please please contact me directly at any time with your questions. Its a good thing to do wth all sponsors here as we aren't always online regularly.
My contact info is
Aquaticsuppliers@comcast.net for email
or thru the website contact page at Aquaticsuppliers.com

my phone is 203-464-2869.

As for the question about nutrition of the Mal's freeze Dried Blackworms... the info posted so far is fairly correct , but theres more.

Please see the following....

Attachment 82240

Somethings to note...
Australian Blackworms are farm raised and as such they receive a special commercial diet. What an organism eats affects its nutritional content when eaten. I know of no Bloodworm farms where diet is supplimented.. and due to the life cycle of the bloodworms (these are a type of insect, similar to a mosquitoe) its unlikely that any are "farm raised" in any controlled environment...I do not have proof of this. In short, when you compare Blackworms to blood worms... there is a world of difference between the two.

I do not have nutritional info on Bloodworms to compare against Blackworms... but I have posted the information we have on Australian Blackworms to allow you make an informed decision if you can obtain similar from what ever Bloodworm suppliers you are using.

In closing, I would also advise anyone considering or using bloodworms to research Bloodworm allergies...
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...itch-the-ITCH-!!!!!!!
Polls on Simply show around 25-30% of members either are allergic mildly or severely to bloodworms... and this allergy is something people don't always start with... you develop it over time...and they can be severe. People using BLACKWORMS do not get these allergies as these are 2 different organisms.

So Nutritionally Australian Blackworms are great for your fish and don't cause your eyes to swell shut, hives on your arms, and difficulty breathing as many people experience with Bloodworms.

Just some "FOOD for Thought"

Best always,
al

what is meaning FDBW?

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Originally Posted by tj_718

what is meaning FDBW?

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Freeze dried blackworms

FDBW freeze dried black worms. Blackworms are the best alternative to beefheart.

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