New member looking for help with research (long)

Hi My name is Tammy. I have been in the hobby for about 25 years now with various species. I have been raising discus for over 10 years. We are now looking to begin breeding these beautiful fish.
I do research into various fish illnesses and do studies on medications and their continued effectiveness or lack thereof. About 7 months ago i lost my female BD. She was mate to my Red cover. I am now doing research and information gathering in order to discover exactly what this is.
At this time i have consulted with several others who do some research and have contacted an expert in the field. I am trying to get a sample to Florida for analysis but to date have had no success in getting it. Those of us looking into it believe that it could be some form of columnaris.
Onset is fast and it runs its course in approximately 48 hours. i have 3 visible stages. i will post pictures that show these stages and you will see the difference. If any of you have experienced this or have some idea of what could be causing it please let me know.

Thanks in advance

Tammy

Hi Tammy and welcome to Simply. I am hoping Al will see this.
Pat

Hi Tammy,
Welcome to SimplyDiscus!

Sorry for your lost fish here, terrible when we lose them! One thing you may want to rule out in some of the cases you see is that its not being caused by heater burns. We have seen these alot of the years here. I have a documented one here ... http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...ht=heater+burn note the oval pattern to it. If there are plecos in a tank, they will attack the damaged tissue while the discus sleep..Even bristlenose do this. The resulting damage can easily get infected and kill a fish in few days. I have seen pics of plecos eating into the cavity like your pics.

Generally bacterial eruptions are round on discus. Yours are oval but that may because of their location and side muscles are interfering. If this is bacterial its likely the lesions will look different on various parts of the fish. We have seen quite a few cases of what starts out as a pimple usually in head but also elsewhere. The pimple rupture into a huge crater, and often times kills the fish in days.. I wouldn't be surprised if this was the same pathogen. I'm not sure if Columnaris is your culprit though as I don't think thje pathogen is starting from the outside, attacking as columnaris does, My best guess is its inside, like a cyst that gets too big and ruptures, and sepsis occurs. Mycobacteria like Marine TB would be a likely suspect IMO,

Good luck, please keep us posted on anything you find out.

Al

I had Columnaris about 10 years ago. It doesn't appear to be the same. The whole slim coat was covered with a patchy,webby, haze.

Al, thanks for chiming in. I have documented 7 cases since I lost.my girl. All follow the same exact pattern. Mine was not heater burn as there was no heater in the QT tank. I wish it had been as I know how to treat that with no problem. In all cases the fish were gone in 48 hours except mine. I think mine was different only because she was in QT and being treated when it started. Because of how many cases i have seen in such a short period, i really would like to get this looked into. I am looking at as many avenues as possible to find a sample to send off. At this point i will pay the expenses at UFL to get pathology done. I really want to know what this thing is.

Tammy

Thanks Pat for your time. I was trying to help someone from FB with this again. She had 1 with it and before it was gone 3 more in her tank had it. It breaks my heart seeing it.

Thank you for this description. I have luckily never seen columnaris. It was suspected because of the shape of the wound which seems to be consistent. In my case I had 3 fish exhibiting slime coat issues which prompted the QT. Their slime coat was not webby or patchy just sloughing.

Tammy

When I had it, it sloughed off too. If I remember correctly.

What heaters are the best to "prevent" heater burns? One encased with plastic vs glass?

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Originally Posted by fljones3

What heaters are the best to "prevent" heater burns? One encased with plastic vs glass?

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Frank, I think the best one s are the one that are not secured by suction cups. Every case I ever saw, was one where they were using suction cups, The fish gets wedged against the tank wall and heater, usually when they dart or are asleep. I usually lay them on the tank floor to avoid it.

al

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Originally Posted by bluelagoon

When I had it, it sloughed off too. If I remember correctly.

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That would be classic for columnaris..it sloughs off in sheets and smells foul.,

al

Tammy,
Here is an example of the Sores rupturing that may be related to what you are seeing,,

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...t=hole+in+fish


http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...t=Hole+in+fish


http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...t=Hole+in+fish


http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...ght=Columnaris

If you sort through our disease board and reports of HITH, you will see some cases that are clearly not HITH... These sores rupture into huge holes.. If one were to occur on the side of the fish...I think the result could be the same.

al

Al, I see what you mean with those. They do not look like classic HITH, however i believe they could be from the same pathogen.
I did find a case of what i am researching on here but the lesion, ulcer, wound? Did not look as severe at the time of death. I'm wondering if the fish was euthanized. Since reading your post, I have looked into more of the internal problems that can cause abcesses, ulcer, and lesions. I also have a call in to a researcher to ask more questions. I hope I can find an answer.
I have been recommending kanamycin with nitrofurazone for treatment of this. I was treating with nitro when my female had it and she lived longer. I'm not even sure that there is a treatment once this thing starts though. What are your thoughts on this?

Tia
Tammy

I used Furan 2, maybe half the fish survived. You need to treat columnaris quickly. I had the antibiotic on hand.

Attachment 124852


The end of my search is almost here. My husband phoned me on my way to work and messaged me this photo. Although i have not seen it in angelfish i had guessed that it was possible. This fish has since been euthanized and packed in Formalin for shipping to Florida.

Thank you all for your responses and as soon as i hear back from Dr. Ruth i will let everyone know what was found.

Again, thanks bunches

Tammy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brewmaster15

Frank, I think the best one s are the one that are not secured by suction cups. Every case I ever saw, was one where they were using suction cups, The fish gets wedged against the tank wall and heater, usually when they dart or are asleep. I usually lay them on the tank floor to avoid it.

al

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Thanks Al.
Mine have cups but they are just laying on the bottom. Completely movable.

Looks more like Aeromonas than Columnaris.

Megalodon, that is a very good answer, I wish I had had this answer months ago. After I sent the fish off for necropsy, it was recommended that I read up on this. I saw the resemblance immediately and now that the necropsy is back we have had confirmation.
This wound was caused by aeromonas salmonicida. It was first thought that it might have been aeromonas hydrophila, as that is the tropical strain, however the fact that, in none of the cases I have seen was there a complete loss in the tanks. All cases it was 1 fish. If it had been hydrophila it would have spread into the entire system.
Salmonicida prefers cold water, in a tropical tank it would need the fish to be under stress in order to get a foothold with the fish.
Unfortunately once the disease has begun, it is fatal.
It is unlikely that I will see this again in my tanks and it is the same for the others who have seen it. In order to keep it from spreading further, any fish who show symptoms should be removed from the system and euthanized, this will keep it from spreading to other fish in the tank.

Thanks for your time.

Tammy

Thanks for the up date. Nice to know.