Sick discus despite my efforts
I've read a lot on this magnificent forum and have been trying to implement it, but somehow I have ended up with several sick fish.
They eat and are active. But the sick ones are a bit darker and have "foggy" eyes, not the clear red eyes they used to have. One fish also spits out a lot of the food. Sometimes they rub their sides against driftwood, but not excessively. This probably started a year ago. Also they have never started to breed despite me having them for 2 years and since juvies.
The tank is bare bottom 110 gallons with 9 discus. I haven't changed anything for at least a year. I clean filters (2 canisters and one sponge) regularly in tank water and change 50% water daily. I don't age water but pH swing is below 0.2 and I dose Seachem Safe for chloramine.
The water and tank looks really clean. I wipe the glass and siphon everywhere at least every week.
I've thought that maybe just clean water will cure them, but it has not. After a year I resorted to trying metro (in water and home made food mix) and also Prazipro. The treatment did not change anything. The kept eating and behaving like always but still look sick. No wormes sighted.
Experienced discus keepers, please advice me what to do.
Here are some photos of my fish from today:
https://i.postimg.cc/jqnhN34R/20181125-171036.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/PJnv1ydq/20181125-171247.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/85RzgSV1/20181125-171310.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/yx7YVbV0/20181125-171349.jpg
Re: Sick discus despite my efforts
Hi Jörgen, when did the foggy eyes become apparent? The discus in the second appears thin. Is this the one spitting out food? Also is it at the bottom of the pecking order. When they rub their sides is it just after a water change?
My first recommendation would be to age your water. Can you do this?
Pat
Re: Sick discus despite my efforts
Hi Pat. I would like to age the water but I don't have room for it. On the other hand, why would it help? The pH-swing is very small and the water contains monochloramine which is removed with Seachem Safe.
The fish do not seem to bother at water change at all, and do not rub more or become darker afterwards. There are no micro bubbles to irritate them.
I think the foggy eyes started at least a year ago.
I agree some of them are thin. The one spitting food is even thinner than the ones in the photos. That one also shakes/wiggles with large movements after spitting out.
They have always eaten a lot and still turned out kind of small. I have two fish that have never been sick and have clear eyes, and they are larger and thicker than the rest.
I have never observed any weird looking poop. However some white pimples appear from time to time.
Re: Sick discus despite my efforts
Also, they seem a little bit happier during times when I have changed even larger amounts of water daily and cleaned the filters every second week. But it's not enough.
Re: Sick discus despite my efforts
Eating a lot but remaining on the small and thin side may be an intestinal parassite, thinking more worms than protozoa. Ideally you would have the feces checked for worm eggs under the microscope to see if there is anything to be seen
Re: Sick discus despite my efforts
Re: Sick discus despite my efforts
I was thinking worms also, Paul. If you don't have access to a scope I would try 100% levamasole. I may have the dose written on my old container of it somewhere. If not, It's been posted here before.
Re: Sick discus despite my efforts
Don’t give up on them yet. They look like they grew nicely. How long ago did you stop dosing medicine and how much time passed in between the different medications? You might have to fill out the questionnaire so the gurus can help. Questionnaire stops a lot of the questions and is an efficient way for them to provide a remedy.
What temp is the water going in when performing water changes? I had a similar issue where it seemed like medicine wasn’t helping me. First, my water was going extremely cold and I believe this disturbed the slime coat process and allowed bacteria. Second, my well water had bacteria in it. After I went with heated, aged tap water, my problems dissapeared. Do you clean both canisters at the same time?
I guess knowing your ammonia, nitrite, etc, may help.
I was able to get one of my fish to eat frozen blood worms. I would thaw it out with garlic and tank water.
Re: Sick discus despite my efforts
Paul and Liz, yes maybe they have worms.
Mando, I tried the medication just a couple of days ago. Prazipro (actually it's sold as eSha gdex here in Sweden) at recommended dose for a week, and Metro for a couple of days.
Temperature is 27.5-28 Celsius. At water change I let it drop to 26.5 C.
I don't test the water often but have had no ammonia or nitrite when I've tested. I have large bio filtration and never forget to change water (automatic system).
Re: Sick discus despite my efforts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Paul Sabucchi
Eating a lot but remaining on the small and thin side may be an intestinal parassite, thinking more worms than protozoa. Ideally you would have the feces checked for worm eggs under the microscope to see if there is anything to be seen
One symptom of internal parasites can be foggy eyes.
Re: Sick discus despite my efforts
1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?
Described in previous posts. Foggy eyes, some with dark bodies and one that spits food. Nothing unusual happened. Maybe periods with less frequent water changes.
2. Symptoms
Some dark and sometimes scratching against driftwood.
3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.
eSha gdex at recommended dose for one week.
Metro powder in water like three days at 2 tsp for 450l.
Temperature 27.5 Celsius.
Tank/Water
4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.
450l Juwel Rio. 9 discus, 2+ years old and two Bristlenose Plecos 1.5 years old.
5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
50% daily. Siphoning and wiping of glass once a week.
6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?
Maybe 1.5 years. Bare bottom but large driftwoods with Anubias and Java Fern.
7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.
No. pH goes up 0.2 at water change 50%.
8. Parameters and water source;
- temp 27.5-28.0 C
- ph ~7.5
- ammonia reading 0
- nitrite reading 0
- nitrate reading 0
What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.
- municipal water treated with Seachem Safe dosed after water change
9. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.
No.
10. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.
Twice a day. Lunch time Tetra Bits or freeze dried blackworms. Evening home made mix (fish, banana, garlic, spinach, multivitamin, spirulina).
Re: Sick discus despite my efforts
Any more ideas regarding my sick fish? I will probably try Liz recommendation and treat with levamisole soon.
Re: Sick discus despite my efforts
Treating with a broad spectrum dewormer like levamisole is a quick and easy way to deal with it if its worms. Before you go that route though.
Quote:
3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.
eSha gdex at recommended dose for one week.
Metro powder in water like three days at 2 tsp for 450l.
Temperature 27.5 Celsius.
More info here .. whats the concentration of the medication? It doesnt sound like your dosed metro long enough. 7-10 days daily dosing at 500 mg per 10 gals is generally whats used with Discus.. shorter dosing durations generally lead you to relapses and drug resistance.
hth,
Al
Re: Sick discus despite my efforts
How much Safe are you dosing? I found the recommended dose is very optimistic and removes less than half the chloramine in my water. And I have only 1.37 mg/L...
Re: Sick discus despite my efforts
Thanks Al! I have searched in the forum and done the math and my 2 teaspoons equals around 400 mg/10gallons. I'll get right back to metro and try to keep 500 mg/10gallons for 7-10 days.