Test #3 – Growing out discus fry with limited water changes and plants/algae scrubber

You could be right. Each aquarium I’ve seen with an algae scrubber or other filtration has a “limit”. When mine is working 100% (optimal light and plant nutrients), I can feed up to 7-9 cubes of food per day and keep nitrates between 0-10. I went with the UV instead of the ozoniser but I’ll have to look into them again.


There are lots of algae scrubber designs out there with a quick google search but this one has worked well for me.
All of the lights I use are designed for growing plants or planted aquariums.

There is a 50 watt LED on the side of the sump that shines on an “upflow” algae scrubber. There is also a 90 watt led that shines down on the sump from above. I noticed this week that some of the 90 watt led lights were burned out and that might have been why the nitrates were rising. Usually I can feed even more and they stay lower. I turned on an additional 90 watts of led above the sump. We’ll know if it worked in a few more days if the nitrates go back down.

Attachment 101428

Post 12 here has some more pics of the sump:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...changes-needed


The display tank has two 54 watt led light fixtures above it.
Attachment 101429Attachment 101430


The top breeder tank has two 23 watt led light fixtures above it.
Attachment 101431

Thanks, and so if you're pumping 300 watts of LED light into that plant/algae growth then perhaps that may well be able to keep up with as large a bioload as that!

But it's not just about nitrates in my understanding, (although this may be a helful indicator to track). It's hard to find specific decent research regarding it, but my understanding which I've arrived at after reviewing many different sources is that there are complex/long-chain organic molecules (organic carbon, of varying forms), that are a byproduct of your bioload's metabolism that can be difficult to break down and used by either plants or bacteria. But ozone will oxidize those compounds down to their basic forms which plants then are able to utilize as their fertilizer. Aquarists don't tend to rely on the use of ozone for the right reasons however, and they seem to believe that it is used primarily just for killing pathogens despite that this might not be its primary benefit in an otherwise generally healthy system.

Are you under the impression that the plants uptake TDS and keep that from climbing by the way, considering that you are regularly harvesting them to cycle nutrients back out? (It's something I've wondered about). Or have you considered other means of dealing with this such as regularly putting quite small filter-bags of DI resin into your filter to gently keep TDS down within whatever range you believe is appropriate?

I think you're right that the ozone can be risky. I will still probably try it eventually.

Yes on the plants / algae consuming TDS. I replace evaporated water with RO water and skim 1-2 cups of water out of the sump every 1-2 days. If I don't add minerals or KH, the TDS will continue to decline. I don't add any additional DI or anything like that.

Pros and cons update. But mostly cons today.

TDS: 370
PH: 6.9
Redox: 360
Phosphate was 0, increased to 2
Nitrate: 30


In my experience, Algae scrubbers do not always perform the same over time. In my opinion, it is because certain minerals and nutrients are used up by the algae more quickly than others. When a certain element, let’s say Iodine (including iodide and iodate) is depleted, it becomes a limiting factor, limiting the performance and filtration efficiency of the algae scrubber.

Over the past few years I’ve acquired various minerals and fertilizers to try and combat this problem:
Attachment 101907


With the extremely low % of water changes, it has been challenging to know what the limiting element is and dose accordingly so that the algae scrubber maintains performance.

Right now the nitrates are all the way up to 30. It wasn’t the lighting. I suspect a lack of iodine currently... I just started dosing and monitoring. We’ll see if that helps bring it back down to 0.


For me, this search and find is a little frustrating at times. I’m thinking that the optimal setup would be to do just enough water changes that the algae scrubber does not have to be supplemented but the work of water changes is still reduced. The current water change schedule is obviously to low (shocker right? I purposefully started at the low end though) Additional trials are needed to find the best water change regime and it will vary tank by tank per feeding.


Update on the older purple fish: He is about 90% healed. I’ll post pics in subsequent post.

Fry are getting big. I will measure and post later on.


Below is a pic of the algae I removed today. This is about how much I remove every couple of days. It mostly floats to the top of the sump and I just scoop it out.

Attachment 101908

2 month fry birthday tomorrow!

Only Water Changes since August 2015:
- 50% August – November 2015
- 5% - December 2015
- 5% - January 2016
- 32% - February 2016
- 50% - March 2016
- 2% - May 2016
- 1% - June 2016
- 3% - July 2016
- 4% - August 2016
- 60% & 40% - September 2016

Current stats:
TDS: 320
Redox: 350
PH: 6.9
Nitrate: 30
Iodine (all forms): <.05
Phosphate: 2 (Increased from 0 by adding monopotassium phosphate)


4 fish pulled for measuring birthday party:
Attachment 102252Attachment 102254Attachment 102253Attachment 102255

Fry are now 3 months old. Pics below on tape measure.

Only Water Changes since August 2015:
- 50% August – November 2015
- 5% - December 2015
- 5% - January 2016
- 32% - February 2016
- 50% - March 2016
- 2% - May 2016
- 1% - June 2016
- 3% - July 2016
- 4% - August 2016
- 60% & 40% - September 2016
- 20% - October 2016

Current stats:
TDS: 280
Redox: 385
PH: 6.7
Nitrate: 10


I wish I could have fed them more often this past month but I' was traveling a lot and the fry were only feed 1-2 / day.

Attachment 103905Attachment 103906Attachment 103907

I'm a beginner but, is that peppering normal or part of the high TDS?

I believe the peppering is genetic. I've never heard of TDS effecting it but others may have.

4 months old pics from yesterday below.

Only Water Changes since August 2015:
- 50% August – November 2015
- 5% - December 2015
- 5% - January 2016
- 32% - February 2016
- 50% - March 2016
- 2% - May 2016
- 1% - June 2016
- 3% - July 2016
- 4% - August 2016
- 60% & 40% - September 2016
- 20% - October 2016
- 30% - November 2016



Temp: 82 (i'm increasing to 83 today)
Nitrates: 25
TDS: 330
Redox: 410
PH: 6


Attachment 104878Attachment 104879

I am way too late with my response on this thread but anyway , nice progress Luke .The fry is 3.5 inch in 4 months with 20-30% WC monthly on average .
What was the number of the fry you are raising , the total number of discus in the whole system and the system tankage in Gallons ?
What do you feed them with ?
What filters do you use for mechanical and bio filtration ?
In what way do you consider UV unit helps maintaining your Redox in check ?

Nice experiment Luke .TFS with us .

The fish are a little small for their age, not too bad though.
Shape is not good at all, the head region is behind in growth, not getting the proper nutrients.
Fins are ragged and show signs of degradation

Hi Filip,
I gave away all but 3 fry now, they are in a 40 gallon tank with a couple of other 4.5” discus. There is also an 80 gallon display tank with around 9 adult discus. Both tanks are connected to a 20 gallon refugium with an upflow algae scrubber in it. Other filtration includes a large eheim canister filter, 2 sock filters and UV Sterilizers on the 40 and 80 gallon tanks.
I’m not an expert on UV but I think this is an interesting article: http://www.americanaquariumproducts....aquarium_redox

I will post my beefheart recipe below.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nc0gnet0

The fish are a little small for their age, not too bad though.
Shape is not good at all, the head region is behind in growth, not getting the proper nutrients.
Fins are ragged and show signs of degradation

---

Hi Rick, fry fins continue to show signs of degradation.

This is my beefheart recipe. It’s usually a little different each time but I always love hearing ways to improve nutrients. For water nutrients, sometimes I add Discus trace, calcium and minerals.

Recipe:
Beef heart - 3 pounds
Fish (saltwater, usually salmon or tuna) - 1 pound
Shrimp - 1 pound, peeled
Egg yolk - 3 egg yolks

Astaxanthin - 1 tablespoon
Lecithin - 2 tablespoons
Garlic - 2 cloves
Paprika - 1 tablespoon
Spirulina - 2 tablespoon
Vita Chem vitamins - 5 tablespoons
Fish oil / krill oil – 10-20 emptied pills
Brewer’s yeast - 1 tablespoon
Gluten powder - 2 tablespoons
Liquid calcium - 3 tablespoons
Discus trace - 12 tablespoons
Gelatin - 1 packet, with discus trace elements mixed in for liquid
Banana - 1

Attachment 105537
Attachment 105538

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Luke in Phoenix

Hi Rick, fry fins continue to show signs of degradation.

This is my beefheart recipe. It’s usually a little different each time but I always love hearing ways to improve nutrients. For water nutrients, sometimes I add Discus trace, calcium and minerals.

Recipe:
Beef heart - 3 pounds
Fish (saltwater, usually salmon or tuna) - 1 pound
Shrimp - 1 pound, peeled
Egg yolk - 3 egg yolks

Astaxanthin - 1 tablespoon
Lecithin - 2 tablespoons
Garlic - 2 cloves
Paprika - 1 tablespoon
Spirulina - 2 tablespoon
Vita Chem vitamins - 5 tablespoons
Fish oil / krill oil – 10-20 emptied pills
Brewer’s yeast - 1 tablespoon
Gluten powder - 2 tablespoons
Liquid calcium - 3 tablespoons
Discus trace - 12 tablespoons
Gelatin - 1 packet, with discus trace elements mixed in for liquid
Banana - 1

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I'm the wrong one to ask on BH recipes, I don't feed the crap ;)

Before I add some more constructive criticism, let me say I like what your trying and your willingness to post results. I do however take issue with the fact you sold some of these fry, IMO, they should have been culled.

Hopefully you will try another batch, and if I may, I would like to suggest some changes to your routine.

1) I would like to see the scrubber only be used on the grow-out tank, not coupled with the display tank.
2) I think most of your problems "might" clear up if you didn't take things to such an extreme, perhaps once weekly WC of 80%. Also, add some crushed coral to the tank.
3) Consider a cleaner food, like Al's FDBW's.
4) Some better parental stock would be nice as well.

Here are a couple of photo's of some juvies of mine, within a week age of yours. These were raised with traditional methods. Nothing special, just some basic browns. The purpose is to compare the regions on my fish to yours that I highlighted.

Attachment 105547
Attachment 105548

just crappy cell phone pics, but you get the idea.