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Awww congrats!!! Is it your first time as a potential momma?
Yup. I have done lots of reading on this forum but not in the breeding section because I did not think this would happen. lol
Is it common for the discus to get darker than normal? (she/he is not as dark as my picture makes it look like though)
Does the female or male do the most guarding of the eggs? I see they take turns but one does the most; I do not know which is the female. :(
Since this is their first attempt I am not expecting it to work but when they are successful what will the offspring of a virgin red and a blue SS/Scorpion be?
I only saw the virgin red doing the shimmy but not the blue so I did not think I would find eggs!
Well in the picture the eggs appear almost white already, so might only have a confirmed female in there but hard to say yet. My males tend to be the better parents overall and I think thats the general concensus. I breed mostly pigeon based fish and do not see much if any change in color usually, however, the dark angels I just got in... they change COMPLETELY for their fry, turning dark which helps with attachment and such down the road. My female turned BRIGHT almost cobalt blue, and the male's whole top half turned a dark purple, so it probably is due to the spawn. Im not a breeding pro yet, and am just dabbling my feet into genetics which is why I will defer your third question, especially since I only breed pigeon based strains at the moment. If what Im thinking is correct though I dont see any real issue with those potential fry, could be very interesting to see. Rick and Rod would be great to ask that question too, hopefully they will see this thread. Both of them have been invaluable to me with the genetics/breeding part of this journey. The virgin red is non-pigeon red, then your turq, Im guessing half and half with some exceptions? Like I said I am not educated enough to make a claim. Thats why I only breed what I know and understand at least half way haha.
The picture does not do a good job at showing the color of the discus or the eggs. I am a poor photographer using a phone camera - any picture I take is doomed!
2 of the eggs are white and not fertalized but the others look like they were fertalized. However, I am only guessing on this based on my experience of breeding apistogrammas a lot.
Well I'll be watching this cute couple make progress, i'm excited for you. Are they in a community tank right now?
In my experience with breeding it will take a few days to determine if they are definitely fertilized.
Yes, that is perhaps why the virgin red parent is darker than normal. The other fish keep coming near and they have to shoo them away. I have a medusa pleco, 3 apistos, 6 discus and 12+ amanos (not sure how many, I started with 12 but they are multiplying).
Tomorrow I will set up a 20 gal and put the pair and the plant they laid the eggs on in the tank. Thank goodness I have it in a terra cotta pot.
I would maybe either put a divider up or just leave them for a few more spawns, they should start going once a week. Let them learn to spawn, get on a schedule, defend the eggs, they probably wont keep any of the eggs or wigglers if they allow them to get that far, but it will help them establish as a breeding pair. Then pull them exactly as you described, I try to do it a day or two before they are scheduled to spawn. It has worked well for me and made for smooth transfers outside of their normal tank. I hope that helps.
They both ate the eggs yesterday, not that I am surprised by this since this was their first time. Still a bummer though.
Sorry to hear that. Also when my BDs starting laying eggs I got excited and it has knocked them off the weekly egg laying cycle they had going on. So might be better off leaving them right where they are until you know they are a confirmed pair and get the wiggler stage a time or two. No experience but from what I read it can help make them better parents. (<---- Dont know if that is true or not)
Also are you sure your Amano's are breeding in there? They typically need brackish water for the little ones to hatch/grow out. I know of a thread I was following on Plantedtank of a guy trying to breed and raise them but could never get them past the larvae stage or whatever they call it. If they are he might care to know your water parameters and such. Not saying its impossible, but would like to see a confirmed case of it without all the salt water since they are great algae eaters and I think they look neat. :) Again just going off the endless hours of pointless research I do when I am bored.
A virgin red and snakeskin pairing is going to give you virgin reds. I previously had a rose rose paired with a snakeskin and they always produced rose reds. Rod thinks the rose and virgin reds have the same origin. There is a very recent thread, within the last few days, discussing this exact pairing and asking the same question and Rod, myself, and a couple others weighed in on it.
I'd considering getting a breeding tank set up adjacent to the current tank soon. I use to think exactly like Ben and Drew that you should let a pair get some experience before you moved them. Then I recently ran into a pair where the male would always eat the eggs. In talking (PMing) with the admin Paul he said as logical as it seemed to leave a pair get experience, sometimes in their little heads they see eating the eggs as the best way to protect them. Unfortunately sometimes when they learn this "protective behavior" they continue it whether there are other threats around or not. Good luck and I hope you're able to confirm they're a pair soon.
Thats a good point Keith that I hadnt really thought about. I suppose my main point was simply that it takes more time if you move them prematurely... they will or at least should start spawning again, however it may take some time. Leaving them in the tank to establish a cycle of sorts seems to eliminate this in my experience. However I could completely see how you could end up in a situation where your having to cage the eggs consistently, which would be a huge pita. I may have to do an experiment next time I shuffle breeders and see what i find out. So far allowing them to establish and then moving them has been beneficial, but usually in my situation I havent had egg eaters, so its completely pheasable that this poor trend could develop.
I wish I had thought of it. I now have the one fish in my growout group that I really wanted to breed that constantly eats eggs as they're being laid. Even caging isn't an option anymore, and as best I can tell this was probably with only about a half dozen spawns. Just when I thought surely the fish should be catching on most anytime. Some probably just never do. Fortunately this is the only fish I've ever had that was nearly this bad.
Yes, I started that thread since Drew thought I should get Rod and Rick's opinions - which I did. :)
I will move them to the 20 G asap but how long can 2 discus stay in there? It just seems so small for 2 discus. Also, what about the 4 left in the 75G? Won't that cause aggression problems since they will not be a group of 6 anymore?
Not necessarily, the remaining group will be a but more skittish I would guess and probably not eat as well. The two in the 20 is no biggy, you could keep them in there indefinitely. I use 29's for my breeder tanks but its just a personal preference, I know plenty that use 20's. They'll be fine, may take a bit for them to eat and a month or more to start breeding successfully but fish are funny so who knows.
OC, regardless of what the outcome was, congrats. It is exciting to see a spawn in your own tank for the first time. Makes it all worth it, doesn't it?
Enjoy.
What Drew said, though I think he's sand bagging a bit on the times it will take your fish to settle in on their new living arrangements. I went from 6 to 3 in a 55 gallon tank recently over a very rapid period of time and the 3 remaining fish pretty much acted like nothing ever happened. A horny pair of discus usually don't waste too much time getting back into their routine either, so I wouldn't be surprised if they spawned within a week of when you moved them. It could take as long as Drew said, but I'd say that's probably pretty close to worst case scenerio.
Well, she spawned again......
I wouldn't be too worried about interrupting that hussies cycle!
Stupid question........last night I moved them into the 20 G along with the amazon sword that has eggs on the rim of the pot, but now I cannot do a large water change without the water level going below the eggs. Do I need to keep water on the eggs at all times or can I do a 90% water change?
from what I have READ, it's ok to drop the water level below the eggs.....for a very short time. altho opinions vary. here's one thread addressing this: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...s+water+change
(keep in mind I am NOT a breeding expert LOL)
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It is so much fun watching them care for the eggs in the 20 gallon. Taking turns, fanning them and watching them. Awesome.
OC instead of 90% WC do 50% twice a day in the breeding tank, this will help you from getting down to the eggs and possibly getting the parents from loosing concentration on the little guys. Best of luck to you.
+1 this is generally what I do, I don't like doing anything that might affect the eggs. I know people do it so this is a personal preference but my breeders stay very clean anyway so even one 50% change is plenty in most instances. I do them twice a day right before they hatch though because during attachment you will minimize water changes for a few days so I get the water as clean as possible before the eggs pop.
OMG, OMG, OMG! I have wrigglers!!!!!
I'm so excited, I have a confirmed pair!
congratulations!!!! :D
Congrats OC, so exciting for you :) Time to learn about hatching BBS.
They may if you can get them to eat it.
Now is not the time to start looking for short cuts. Get to work, set up a bbs hatchery. Get a hold of some good bbs from someplace like brine shrimp direct too, the lfs stuff normally has really poor hatch rates. It's really not that hard to do, you just have to get the process down. Congrats on the wrigglers, any idea how many you have?
Honestly Holly you will be happy if you take the advice and just set up a little brine shrimp hatchery, even if its only one bottle for now, you do need to order artemia cyst's however and get those on the way, kensfish has good ones, brineshrimpdirect, or angelfishusa has some good ones as well. Kieth's set-up with an old 10 gal (yes I coppied it too kieth haha) works like a champ but you can go even simpler than that. Start with one if you want, in which case go to youtube and search "hatching baby brine shrimp" there is a video on making a simple little one out of a one liter bottle, its a small version but probably enough for you honestly speaking since its only one batch. You want to do this Holly I promise, you may not be able to get them to eat the frozen ones for a while, if at all, and even if you do the growth rate just isnt the same. I promise it isnt that complicated, took me about an hour to set-up a full hatchers that can produce up to three batches a day. This should be your biggest focus right now but you have a little bit of time at least so dont stress, you just need to make a list and get the stuff ordered that you will need. Hell Kensfish even sells a readymade BBS Hatchery that you just hook up to air for 8 bucks at the very least. Were here to help you the best we can my friend, and again congrats.
I raised mine w/o bbs because mine wouldnt hatch (just got an order in from bsd thanks to Gary). It was a looot of work and took 3 wc a day. Had to have the fry swimming in ground up food. I had a high rate of culls, I suspect from the lack of bbs. I also left them on the parents for 2 weeks and 150-200 fry took a toll on them.
Yeah see thats what we all want to avoid, but great post Jen, its SO much harder to raise the fry without live BBS, than it would be to just set up a small hatchery. I just wrote you a super long PM Holly so I hope that helps to some degree with some of the adventure ahead!!! Im very excited for you and its awsome you got wigglers on their second round, may be lining up to be good parents you have there!