Re: Discus. Facts and myths
To summarize the long thread about the diet if one can't read the bad translation, this is what's written on seriously fish in shorter words:
To Alan. The diet You wrote about is bollocks It’s a strange thing that rarely anybody thinks about what actually feeding the meet of warm-blooded animals does to the (most of) fish. In case od S. sp the results of such a diet means an outstanding growth, coloration.. Everything bigger and better than in the nature. Well.. it does sound strange, doesn’t it? In the Amazon, where they can eat what they want and need they are smaller, yet they are not underfed.
Another thing, in the natural habitat discus is a rather hardy species. It does well avoiding any problems with parasites. Why is that?
The DIET of course! Becouse DISCUS IS MAINLY A HERBIVORE SPECIES!
How so?! What are You talking abou! Blasphemy! Burn him into a crisp!
There were many dissections of discus in the wild. For polish speakers I hereby present the link:
http://krytykaakwarystyczna.wordpres...don-w-naturze/
The unprocessed food was analised by Crampton, and the result is, that at the wet season 77% of the food was detrytus and plant matter, 5% were decapods, 10% Chironimidae larvae, 8% were composed of wood matter, bugs and Crustacea. In the dry season, the balance drifts towards bugs and crustacea (only 55% were composed ef the detrytus/plant matter).
Their intestines are not built for devouring the flesh of the warm-blooded animals. It’s typical for plant eaters.
What is the CORRECT FOOD ?
-spirulina
-spinach
-peas
-other vegetables
-shrimps
-glassworm
-bloodworm
-krill
No fish meat was ever found in the stomach of a wild discus.
So it’s NOT RECOMMENDED to give them:
-fish
And it WRONG to give them:
-hearts of warm-blooded animals
-or any parts of warm blooded animals.
It makes them sick, destoys their organs, especially livers. The wrong diet is the cause of the discus beeing considered as a hard-to-breed fish. It’s easy! Bit you need to mind their normal diet! The one that they were constantly exposed since thousands of years.
Re: Discus. Facts and myths
Re: Discus. Facts and myths
It probably comes down to wild discus versus tank-bred discus. All South American cichlids will show differences between F0 (wild-caught) and F1 generations. As they've bred and raised in captivity they become more tolerant of wider parameters. A great example of that would be panda uaru, Uaru fernandezyepezi. The wild-caught fish are notoriously difficult to acclimate at a small size and are often shy and timid, requiring very low lighting and extremely soft, acidic water to prevent the development of hole-in-the-head. Several years ago I managed to obtain a group of tank-bred U. fernandezyepezi that were bold, aggressive, and grew extremely well in my harder water. They were totally different than wild-caught specimens. Things like pH, hardness, temperature, and diet are variable -- as we breed hardier fish, the ability to tweak and play with these parameters becomes possible.
We have covered the beefheart topic here many times before and there will never be an agreement on its use. In the early days of discus keeping it was a cheap, easily-made, high protein food that would grow discus fast. While it's probably true that this animal protein could lead to fatty deposits on the liver and reduce the overall lifespan of the fish, there have been many discus keepers who've had their fish 7 or 8+ years and managed to keep them happy and healthy on this diet. Most people these days feed other sources of protein, such as bloodworms, blackworms, red wrigglers, etc. High protein foods will ensure good growth and help discus reach their maximum potential. You don't have to feed them this way; it's strictly up to you. Most people here just choose to feed them this way because it's been proven to work time and time again. I knew a few hobbyists here years ago who grew beautiful, large discus on nothing but Tetra Bits.
On the subject of vegetable matter in their diets, a lot of discus hobbyists do address this by feeding spirulina flakes or by mixing things like spinach, spirulina, and other greens into beefheart or seafood mixes. I would guess that discus ingest a lot of dead vegetation in the form of detritus from the riverbeds while foraging for food. This doesn't happen as frequently in tanks because most people keep their tank bottoms clean. I've never known a discus to seek out and eat plants which makes me question whether they're "mainly herbivores" by design, or by consequence. To go back to the Uaru, for example -- they are truly herbivorous, usually devouring any kind of plants of greenery you offer them.
Temperatures do fluctuate from location to location in Amazonia, and also with the seasons. Still, I would be hesitant to keep discus long-term in anything below 80F. I usually aim for 82F with adults. I follow this same rule of thumb with other South American cichlids (with the exception of some of the southern-most cichlids, like Gymnogeophagus). Keep them for a while and let the temperature dip into the 70s, and you'll see why. They tend to get sluggish and generally act "off." Cooler water is great in the short-term, though. A water change with cool water will usually induce spawning, for instance.
The bottom line is that most people follow what works. Does that mean you cannot deviate from it? No. For people wanting to get into discus for the first time, the advice given here is a guideline that has been proven to be successful. As hobbyists gain more experience they can and do try different methods, some with success and some without. I often mix discus with other cichlids and angels, something discus purists nearly had a heart attack over when I mentioned it in the late 90s on a discus message board. I also got banned from a chat room once because I told a roomful of European discus hobbyists that fishless cycling was the best way to go, and they said I was purposely trying to encourage people to kill their fish by cycling a tank with pure ammonia. As you get comfortable with the fish and your ability as a discus keeper, you branch out and try new things.
Re: Discus. Facts and myths
Well said Ryan! :bandana:
Re: Discus. Facts and myths
Interesting read.....its like keeping Chicken...free range country Hens spend most of their time foraging and eating whatever comes their way,they don't die, but they grow relatively slowly,mature slowly and lay approximately 125 eggs per year...on the other hand commercial laying hens are fed an extremely balanced diet with the optimum amount of Protein, fiber Calcium,Phosphorous Calories etc...are currently they are able to produce around 320 eggs per year !!..
Re: Discus. Facts and myths
It is a great read, but as Ryan said, it has always been trial and error with raising healthy discus.
Are we straying from their natural enviornment? For wilds, yes I would say as they are not getting what they would normally get in the own waters. For domestics, I would say people have seen things like beefheart not only grow your discus fast but they reproduce without any ill effects on their fry.
The one good thing about raising discus or any fish for that matter is experimenting to see what works and keeps them healthy. People don't try and do something that would harm their fish, only make their fish happy.
I am sure you could go back to long time experiments with people like Jack Wattley or Schmidt Focke some 30+ years ago and read some of their books. They were some of the early pioneers in discus keeping and they have done wonders using a variety of tests including foods. And, they grew out some of the most beautiful discus around. Still to this day people still try to obtain a Wattley or Focke discus.
Re: Discus. Facts and myths
I personally think that at least some of the conclusions that the poster is making are poorly thought out and wrong. They are made because he is trying to make a point. As an example "In the Amazon, where they can eat what they want and need "...BS. Like most wild animals they eat whatever they can to fill their stomachs. It is not like the discus are living in a pet store or having fish keepers coming in daily to feed them. They eat what they can.
4 post and already we have decided that 99% of successful discus keepers are wrong. Hey if you what to do it differently then please do, but quit trying to tell everyone else what to do until you test and prove this BS.
-john
Re: Discus. Facts and myths
Yes, it sounds like the chicken story. Those "healthy" grown chickens don't live a normal life actually, but they are bigger alright. If you've ever tasted a home grown chicken and eggs, compared to the "balanced, healthy diet ones" you'd taste the difference. I wouldn't try a discus though :D. It just seems to me not so reasonable to boost a fish's size by feeding such foods. It's like growing a fat child feeding sausages and chips but then again I don't have experience with discus. I was just asking because if I never went on forums, I would have done a totally different approach. Although I still don't know what I'll do. I am just enquiring yet :o
Quote:
I also got banned from a chat room once because I told a roomful of European discus hobbyists that fishless cycling was the best way to go, and they said I was purposely trying to encourage people to kill their fish by cycling a tank with pure ammonia. As you get comfortable with the fish and your ability as a discus keeper, you branch out and try new things.
He, he. My local shop employees, only a few months ago, were looking at me like I was crazy when I mentioned I was cycling a tank with ammonia.
Re: Discus. Facts and myths
Quote:
I personally think that at least some of the conclusions that the poster is making are poorly thought out and wrong. They are made because he is trying to make a point. As an example "In the Amazon, where they can eat what they want and need "...BS. Like most wild animals they eat whatever they can to fill their stomachs. It is not like the discus are living in a pet store or having fish keepers coming in daily to feed them. They eat what they can.
4 post and already we have decided that 99% of successful discus keepers are wrong. Hey if you what to do it differently then please do, but quit trying to tell everyone else what to do until you test and prove this BS.
Fair enough, but if you bothered to read it isn't me claiming that. It's a copy/paste. These are the conclusions of Heiko Bleher. Since I can't ask him to elaborate further, I thought I'd ask here.
Re: Discus. Facts and myths
Your not really asking...you are trying to push your agenda. If you want to try the diet then do so and then report back how it works for you. I am pretty sure you probably hold heiko in much higher esteem then most people that have been around a long time.
-john
Re: Discus. Facts and myths
Quote:
Originally Posted by
John_Nicholson
Your not really asking...you are trying to push your agenda. If you want to try the diet then do so and then report back how it works for you. I am pretty sure you probably hold heiko in much higher esteem then most people that have been around a long time.
-john
Hieko has 3 books! ;) with pictures!!!
Re: Discus. Facts and myths
Quote:
Originally Posted by
warlock4169
Hieko has 3 books! ;) with pictures!!!
LOL...Skip you are killing me here.
-john
Re: Discus. Facts and myths
Quote:
Your not really asking...you are trying to push your agenda. If you want to try the diet then do so and then report back how it works for you. I am pretty sure you probably hold heiko in much higher esteem then most people that have been around a long time.
What agenda? Have you personally, as an experienced discus keeper, provided a different diet and compare the results, growth, health, etc..., then came to your conclusions about what's the best diet? Or were you stuck onto the same thing all those years, denying anything else that comes across as total nonsense just because you are afraid to realize you've been wrong all along, or to prove your point you are right?
If you don't have the experience of both methods, then why comment?
I am looking for experienced opinion from someone that has done it both ways.
Re: Discus. Facts and myths
Quote:
Originally Posted by
warlock4169
Hieko has 3 books! ;) with pictures!!!
How many have you written?