Test #3 – Growing out discus fry with limited water changes and plants/algae scrubber

Purpose:
Observe Spawning and fry growth with limited water changes. IE: less than 15% / month on average.
Instead of large water changes, water will be filtered using floating plants and an algae scrubber.


Questions:
Will discus thrive and be healthy?
Will discus spawn?
If they spawn, will the fry survive?
If the fry survive, how healthy will they be?



Aquarium setup:
- 40-gallon breeder tank and 80-gallon display tank. Both connected to a 20-gallon sump.
- 3 sock filters
- Eheim Canister filter
- 80-watt Emperor Smart UV High-Output on the main display return pump line with 360 GPH flow
- Aqua Advantage 15-watt sterilizer on Breeder tank with about 50-100 GPH flow
- Algae scrubber in sump
- Added Frogbit floating plants to the display and breeder tank
Attachment 100508



Water specs:
Temperature – 82
TDS - 360
PH - 6.5
KH - 0
Nitrate - 5



Only Water Changes since August 2015:
- 50% August – November 2015
- 5% - December 2015
- 5% - January 2016
- 32% - February 2016
- 50% - March 2016
- 2% - May 2016
- 1% - June 2016
- 3% - July 2016
- 4% - August 2016



Display tank fish:
- 9 Adult discus
- 5 Bristle nose plecos
- 1 Cory

Breeder tank fish:
- Pair of red dragon Discus (parents for this test)
Attachment 100510



3 pairs of discus spawn every 1-2 weeks in the display tank. All fish appear healthy and active except for one male discus that lost some of his color similar to what happened to the fish with spots on 5-11-2016 in test #2
Test #2 link: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...ate-test/page4
I'll continue to monitor this fish.



The red dragon discus pair was moved to the breeder tank and produced approximately 100 wigglers on 8-8-2016. This is the first time, these parents will grow out fry.
picture on 8-9-2016:
Attachment 100505

Pictures on 8-14-2016:
Attachment 100506Attachment 100507




We’ll observe these fry and see how they do. I did not use any methylene blue this time and started to increase the TDS and calcium after fry became wigglers. I’m crossing my fingers that these fry have no deformities during this test.


I do not have a separate tank available for a control group with regular water changes and traditional husbandry but if there is somebody in Phoenix that is interested and willing to commit to the experiment, I’ll give you a portion of the fry. Any takers? :) I do not know how to ship.



Additional information on the aquarium setup and results from the first and second test can be found in “The Laboratory” Here are the links:

1^st test thread “Fry grow out test with an algae scrubber. Water change health and growth rate test”: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...changes-needed

2^nd test “How to grow out large fry experiment - How many water changes needed”: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...owth-rate-test

The blue and red parents from these test are in the display tank now.

Picture from today eating baby brine shrimp:
Attachment 100527

Increased TDS to 440
PH = 6.8
Redox = 390

update:
This is the male fish I mentioned is losing some color. He is an older discus.
He should look like this picture taken a few months ago:
Attachment 100537


He currently looks like this:
Attachment 100538
He might improve with increased TDS nutrients in the water and different food like the fish in test #2 improved that developed the same thing / white spots. If not, and he gets to much worse, I may move him into another tank.



All other fish look great including this pic from yesterday of the Dad from test #1 and #2
Attachment 100539

Update:

TDS: 620
KH: 2 (up from 0)
Redox: 350
Temperature: 83
PH: 7.1-7.2

Nitrates: 0
The nitrates went back down to zero after slowly increasing the minerals in the water. I noticed that when the TDS gets to low and the KH down to 0, the Algae / plants do not grow as well and the nitrates went up to as high as 20.

I was able to get a better count today of the fry. I believe there are about 70.
Fry are about 2 weeks old.
Attachment 100596

I can tell already that some of the fry have the same dorsal fin deformity as in test #2. Some of them may grow out of it as they did in test #2.

Others pairs of discus in display tank continue to spawn.
Attachment 100599

I like this. Definitely going to hit a nerve with folks BUT, when raking a step back, your making a thread for folks to reference. Still a very limited experiment and almost wish you took half of the spawn and did a higher wc rate for them but still a great future reference!

Update: just saw your statement on control group limitation. Rgr!

I don't believe any of this...

I’ve also been surprised at the results as well!

I’ve seen people write about the effectiveness of using plants / algae to filter their aquariums and wanted to see for myself what the possibilities are. This has morphed into a “pushing the limits” test.

Like any experiment, I believe the results can be repeated by anybody. Somebody might have already done so and just never posted about it. I’m willing to accept that it could be a complete failure and post the results anyways even if I look “dumb” so other people can see the results. I have nothing to prove or sell, just doing this to learn and gain knowledge.

So far, for me, the algae scrubber and plants have proven to be a highly useful tool in filtering water and keeping aquariums healthy. How effective that tool can be is up for debate. These test may help other people who are wondering the same thing or debating about implementing a similar system.

Update:

TDS: 630
PH: 7.2
Redox: 350
Temp: 83


Pics of fry from today. They are approximately 16 days old.
Attachment 100624Attachment 100625Attachment 100626Attachment 100627



The older discus looks the same or slightly better as of today.
Attachment 100628

3 weeks old today.

TDS - 660
Redox - 355

Mom removed from tank earlier this week.
Father removed yesterday.
Started to feed them beefheart / seafood mix today.

I was surprised that after reconnecting the mom and dad yesterday, they already spawned and laid eggs today in the display tank.
Older discus continues to improve.

Pics from today:
Attachment 100711Attachment 100712Attachment 100713

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Luke in Phoenix

I’ve also been surprised at the results as well!

I’ve seen people write about the effectiveness of using plants / algae to filter their aquariums and wanted to see for myself what the possibilities are. This has morphed into a “pushing the limits” test.

Like any experiment, I believe the results can be repeated by anybody. Somebody might have already done so and just never posted about it. I’m willing to accept that it could be a complete failure and post the results anyways even if I look “dumb” so other people can see the results. I have nothing to prove or sell, just doing this to learn and gain knowledge.

So far, for me, the algae scrubber and plants have proven to be a highly useful tool in filtering water and keeping aquariums healthy. How effective that tool can be is up for debate. These test may help other people who are wondering the same thing or debating about implementing a similar system.

---

With all do respect, I think your overplaying the plants a bit and at the same time underplaying the UV, It's an interesting test, but all that crap/uneaten food on the bottom of the fry tank will be your downfall, as it doesn't pass through the uv filter. Oh and as you increase your calcium/pH, your bacteria will flourish.

I agree this type of system would be very different without the UV. That's one of the reasons I post the redox numbers because I believe the UV helps to increase those.

The tank receives a daily eheim gravel vac. The bottom and sides are cleaned with an algae scrubber pad at least weekly and then vacuumed. I could probably do a better job at this. Usually I keep plecos in there that "clean" the glass. their waste is very easy to vacuum or it goes into the sock filters which I rinse every 1-3 days.

KH = 2
Nitrate = 5
Redox = 360
TDS = 670
PH = 7

Fry pics from today

TDS = 690
Redox = 365

Attachment 100821Attachment 100822Attachment 100823

Update: Fry are approximately 1 month and 3 days old today.


TDS: 340
PH: 6.3
Redox: 389
Nitrate: 15


Only Water Changes since August 2015:
- 50% August – November 2015
- 5% - December 2015
- 5% - January 2016
- 32% - February 2016
- 50% - March 2016
- 2% - May 2016
- 1% - June 2016
- 3% - July 2016
- 4% - August 2016
- 60% - September 2016


Fry are eating vigorously. 90%+ look healthy to my untrained eye.

Nitrates are starting to rise so some of the fry and adults were separated.
42 healthy fry were given away. I should be able to get pics from them for updates later on.
Approximately 49 fry remain, for an approximate total of 91 fry to begin with. I didn’t think this was too bad for the first time this pair raised fry.
No fry culled yet.

6 total adults remain in display tank. The Red dragon pair and the blue turquoise pair from the previous test continue to lay eggs weekly.
Attachment 101386


I pulled a couple of the fry for measuring. They are not very consistent size wise. I tried to pull a larger, average and smaller fry for measuring.

Larger fry:
Attachment 101388
Attachment 101389
Attachment 101390


Average fry:
Attachment 101391


Smaller fry:
Attachment 101392

The older purple discus is back to his normal self and almost healed up all the way. No medications or anything like that was added.

Attachment 101393Attachment 101394

Would you like to share what your algae scrubber looks like, and how much light wattage you are putting into that and into the frogbits? My own thoughts are that it is perhaps a little undersized for your fish quantity, and that plants alone won't break down all the metabolic byproducts that livestock produces in order to achieve optimal health/growth. To achieve that my belief is that you'd need a generous sized biofilter as well as an ozoniser. But best of luck and I'm following how this does turn out!