Esha gdex

Hi guys!
I have some questions regarding this medication. I sent this email to esha themself:

Hi! I've been using esha gdex over the last 24 hours as a preventive for a new stock of fish I got a few weeks back. I'm using it for flukes and tapeworm.
I've used praziquantel in powder-form at 5 mg/liter in the past with great sucsess. So I dosed esha gdex accordingly to that from day 1. So about 2 drops/liter of water from day 1. But I have not put in any more medicine after that. So it still dosed at 5 ppm.
From the start my fish did'nt like it too much. I tried to feed them. They ate a little bit, swallowed the food, but a few minutes later they start vomit the food. Today they dont even want to eat. They look at the food and it looks like they just try to vomit just by seeing the food.
In addition they are a bit more shy and acting a bit more aphatic. But not so bad.
The breathing is better. They used to breath very fast, but thats already slowed down. I also see much less screatcing.
The fish was in good condition before I start medicating with esha gdex. As I mentioned I use it as a preventetive for a new stock of fish, but they had some minor symptoms of flukes.
The fish is Heros rotkeil, and Uaru Amph. juveniles.
The tank is 530 liter. Filter eheim professional 3 (biggest one).
Parameters:
Ammonia 0 ppm
Nitrite 0 ppm
Nitrate 0-5 ppm
pH 7
KH 2

Have you ever encountered this behavour? Is it safe to dose like I have done? Accordingly to your dosing protocol you will end up dosing 2 drops per liter on day 3 anyway. So I guessed it would have little to say if I dosed in that strength from day 1.
What should I do? Remove the medication with water change? Or just leave it for two more days?
What are the solvent you are using in esha gdex? What are the additional ingredients in this product?


As you can see the fish is not discus. It's heros and uaru. I've kept discus for a long time in the past, mainly wild ones. And as I know we discus keepers tend to have a bit more understanding when it comes to flukes and sicknesses. So I guessed it would be worth asking here for tips.
Have any of you used esha gdex and encountered this problem? Or have any of you encountered this problem just using pure praziquantel powder or any other prazi-based medication dosed at 2.5 ppm or 5 ppm?
Accordingly to esha's instruction you should dose 2 ppm the first day and add 1 ppm on day two, and then again add 1 ppm on day three without any water changes. So you end up with 4 ppm on day three. Then you do a 50% water change. Wait two days and you do the same dosing protocol again.

Thanks for reading all this and giving me an answere :)

And sorry for bad english, I'm from Norway :)

Kind regards :)

Temperature 28 degrees celsius

Hi Uaru and welcome to our forum .
I have used pure praziquantel powder in the past on the usuall recomended dose of 2.5 mg per liter and NOT 5 mg/l / ppm .
At the dose of 2.5 ppm I have experienced non eating or lowered appetite on my discus and some less activity . Other members here have also reported loss of appetite on discus during the treat , that comes back to normal right after stopping the treatment , so I guess its an expected reaction to this med.

But since you have double dosed the med . I guess this more severe fish reaction you've experienced was normal .

According to its dosing instructions and user manual esha gdex aims at maimtaining a constant 2 Ppm per liter solution and youve dosed 4 -5 ppm straight away and I guess that was the main culprit for its adverse reaction .

I would do a large WC to reset the Prazi / gdex dose in water column and redose again but this time strictly following their dosing manual .

My guess is that esha gdex is just trying to maintain the initial 2 ppm dose with their redosing instructions on day 2 and 3 . , and not doubling it .
They are counting on medication partial denature/ deactivation hence advising us to dose only half dose on day 2 and 3 .

I'm glad it worked on your fast breathing / flukes problems though.
Good luck with your fish Uaru.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Filip

Hi Uaru and welcome to our forum .
I have used pure praziquantel powder in the past on the usuall recomended dose of 2.5 mg per liter and NOT 5 mg/l / ppm .
At the dose of 2.5 ppm I have experienced non eating or lowered appetite on my discus and some less activity . Other members here have also reported loss of appetite on discus during the treat , that comes back to normal right after stopping the treatment , so I guess its an expected reaction to this med.

But since you have double dosed the med . I guess this more severe fish reaction you've experienced was normal .

According to its dosing instructions and user manual esha gdex aims at maimtaining a constant 2 Ppm per liter solution and youve dosed 4 -5 ppm straight away and I guess that was the main culprit for its adverse reaction .

I would do a large WC to reset the Prazi / gdex dose in water column and redose again but this time strictly following their dosing manual .

My guess is that esha gdex is just trying to maintain the initial 2 ppm dose with their redosing instructions on day 2 and 3 . , and not doubling it .
They are counting on medication partial denature/ deactivation hence advising us to dose only half dose on day 2 and 3 .

I'm glad it worked on your fast breathing / flukes problems though.
Good luck with your fish Uaru.

---

Thank you for your reply! It make sence what you are saying. But here in Norway it's common to use praziquantel at a strength of 5 ppm. Even the most famous discus breeders recommend that dose as well. Maybe because of resistanse have been building up in the few years. I also understand that praziquantel is more or less useless on discus today because of this problem. Discus breeders in Norway tend to use more and more PP and it have shown good sucsess. But I dont have good enough quarantine setup to be able to do a PP cure. To be able to do 100% water changes each day is impossible to me. And since PP kill all the beneficial bacteria I obviously cant use it in the main tank with filter and all. So then the only option for me would be prazi or flubendazole. And since prazi is the only one of those that are avaible in Norway I went for that. So I cross my fingers for it will be working. But I guess it does when I already see some improvements?

Here is the answer I got from Esha Labs:

"Thank you for your interest in eSHa products.

The difference between Praziquantel powder and eSHa gdex is large.
Praziquantel powder does not dissolve well in water and if you dose eSHa
gdex the praziquantel is much more available. Also there can be a
'difference' in the purity of the powder. For your information, there
are praziquantel powders especially for aquatic applications and
'regular' praziquantel , the powders for aquaculture are fine and
dissolve quickly and others are less fine and the praziquantel does not
dissolve quickly.

The vomiting could be caused by a higher dosage, but we have not
observed this behaviour in our laboratory and because of governmental
regulations we have to investigate higher dosages. It could also be
caused by parasites being killed by the praziquantel, which can be an
effect of killing some species of tapeworms or some species of gill
worms, which are irritating the fish. This is something rare.

We do not recommend higher dosages also because the product is more
effective than powder. The reason to dose several days is to maintain a
constant level of active, praziquantel is biologically degraded and if
you do not dose on day 2 and 3 the time of the appropriate dosage needed
for some parasites may be too short. Most parasites will be gone after
the first dose but not all.

If you used eSHa gdex as a preventive measure, I would recommend you do
a water change and take no further action.

I assume the fish will quickly show their normal behaviour but if not
please let us know."


So you had right regarding adding more each day was for keeping up the strength of the dose at aroung 2 ppm.
What I will do today is to change 50% of the water that is dosed properly according to Eshas instructions. And tomorrow (day 3) I will add 1 ppm of praziquantel. And then change 100% water over 48 hours, and then start the dosing protocol accordingly to their instruction and add a little bit more so I get to 2.5 ppm. And do this yet again so I will end up with three courses and the full treatment will last 15 days. What do you think about this strategy?

But I see lately that people talking about that fluke eggs wont hatch if there is prazi in the water. So you should take a break for 24 - 48 hours to let them hatch and then dose again. Is there any scientifacly proof that can back this up? Or is it just "bro-science"?

Its not uncommon for Discus to go off their feed and lose appetite when being treating with medications. That "throwing up " may be from the prazi's action on the flukes. Its thought that prazi causes the flukes to contract and rupture. After treatment images show nothing but the hooks left often time..these hooks are imbedded in sensitive gill tissue... the "throwing up" could be related to the gill irritation.
hth,
Al

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Uaru

Thank you for your reply! It make sence what you are saying. But here in Norway it's common to use praziquantel at a strength of 5 ppm. Even the most famous discus breeders recommend that dose as well. Maybe because of resistanse have been building up in the few years. I also understand that praziquantel is more or less useless on discus today because of this problem. Discus breeders in Norway tend to use more and more PP and it have shown good sucsess. But I dont have good enough quarantine setup to be able to do a PP cure. To be able to do 100% water changes each day is impossible to me. And since PP kill all the beneficial bacteria I obviously cant use it in the main tank with filter and all. So then the only option for me would be prazi or flubendazole. And since prazi is the only one of those that are avaible in Norway I went for that. So I cross my fingers for it will be working. But I guess it does when I already see some improvements?

Here is the answer I got from Esha Labs:

"Thank you for your interest in eSHa products.

The difference between Praziquantel powder and eSHa gdex is large.
Praziquantel powder does not dissolve well in water and if you dose eSHa
gdex the praziquantel is much more available. Also there can be a
'difference' in the purity of the powder. For your information, there
are praziquantel powders especially for aquatic applications and
'regular' praziquantel , the powders for aquaculture are fine and
dissolve quickly and others are less fine and the praziquantel does not
dissolve quickly.

The vomiting could be caused by a higher dosage, but we have not
observed this behaviour in our laboratory and because of governmental
regulations we have to investigate higher dosages. It could also be
caused by parasites being killed by the praziquantel, which can be an
effect of killing some species of tapeworms or some species of gill
worms, which are irritating the fish. This is something rare.

We do not recommend higher dosages also because the product is more
effective than powder. The reason to dose several days is to maintain a
constant level of active, praziquantel is biologically degraded and if
you do not dose on day 2 and 3 the time of the appropriate dosage needed
for some parasites may be too short. Most parasites will be gone after
the first dose but not all.

If you used eSHa gdex as a preventive measure, I would recommend you do
a water change and take no further action.

I assume the fish will quickly show their normal behaviour but if not
please let us know."


So you had right regarding adding more each day was for keeping up the strength of the dose at aroung 2 ppm.
What I will do today is to change 50% of the water that is dosed properly according to Eshas instructions. And tomorrow (day 3) I will add 1 ppm of praziquantel. And then change 100% water over 48 hours, and then start the dosing protocol accordingly to their instruction and add a little bit more so I get to 2.5 ppm. And do this yet again so I will end up with three courses and the full treatment will last 15 days. What do you think about this strategy?

But I see lately that people talking about that fluke eggs wont hatch if there is prazi in the water. So you should take a break for 24 - 48 hours to let them hatch and then dose again. Is there any scientifacly proof that can back this up? Or is it just "bro-science"?

---

Thanks for sharing the Esha's original response with us Uaru .
About the use of PP on flukes , you are not suppose to have it 24/7 in your water for the whole duration of the treatment but just maintain 2 ppm per liter in your tank for 4 hours . You repeat only this 4 hour 2 ppm bath every 4th day for 4-5 treatments in total (that's 15-20 days total). You deactivate the PP after the bath with dechlorinator or H2O2 slowly , and than you change water , 50-100% . It only knocks an established filter down but does not kill all the bacteria from it .

Pazi treats for flukes ussualy last from 15-21 day course , so I think you'll do fine with 15 days course .

I've read books and articles claiming protozoan egg cysts can go dormant when exposed to extreme conditions such as complete dry out , and come back alive when put back in water , but I have never read this could happen during a prazi treat though .

Please report and share your results and your experience about Esha Gdex on flukes with us Uaru .