Re: Small, Small, Daily WCs
I don’t think anyone’s coming after you. Everybody’s does what works for them. Pretty sure peewee does it the same way. As to the big water changes. Your adding new minerals to the water with these changes. Still plenty in there for bacteria to eat. Also most who do those huge changes are just using sponge filters.
My question is how do you keep your hands out of the tanks? Been doing fish for 40+ years and I need help to figure that out. My hand are in all the tanks. After my cc problem I’m now washing them between tanks. I’ve got to reach in to clean the sponge filters. To put the fdbw on the glass and to vacume the tank.
Re: Small, Small, Daily WCs
Hehehe. You're on, Vinni!
Where I differ from you is mostly one of perspective, although there are clear technical differences as well. To say something works best for you implies you've tried different things. What you really means is that you're satisfied with the results - which is very different than what's best. Back in the day, I changed 100% of the water once a week because I wasn't set up otherwise. My family knew that they had to shower the previous night because there wasn't going to be any hot water one weekend day. Now I have a tankless system and hot water is always available - even though the children have gone on to their own lives.
Back then, I raised and bred a lot of discus. I made a ton of $$ with a dear friend. I bred them and he raised them. What I learned from him was that young discus grew incredibly well with large water changes. I brought spawns over once a month. What he raised was always better than what I kept for myself. My friend had an incurable disease and seldom left his apartment. All he did was change 30% - 40% of the water after every meal: breakfast, lunch and dinner. I set him up with tanks, fry and brought over some beefheart. But he was mostly feeding flake food. The spawns grew so uniformly well that you couldn't pick the males from the females. So I don't think you need to make large water changes with adult discus. But if you want young discus to grow up into spectacular fish, daily water changes are absolutely necessary. I understand not everyone can, nor want, to make daily water changes. Just don't expect to get show quality fish based solely on genetics.
Even though my grow out tanks get 100% water changes daily, the bacteria grow perfectly fine. My sponges very quickly get slimy with microbial growth, even though I squeeze them once a week (that part is OCD). I offer free cycled sponges to aquarists in the Twin Cities who are having trouble with cycling. Some people on Simply have also gotten them. You drop one of my sponges in and your tank is immediately cycled. Even then, daily 100% water changes will make young discus grow better. A good friend and angelfish expert explained it this way. "How often should you change water? How often do you flush your toilet?"
Finally, I'm going to address the matter anaerobic growth. I've read all the threads here and stayed away because people get so emotional about this. Let me be absolutely clear - anaerobic filtration in the aquarium is mass hysteria. Occasionally, there will be a little anaerobic activity is very deep (4" sand) substrates. Otherwise, there is no such thing as anaerobic growth!
The so-called Dr. Novak on YouTube has zero credentials in this area. I've watched 5 - 6 videos and he has yet to produce a single measurement showing that his system lowers nitrate. All scientists know that the only way to prove a hypothesis is to measure results, which he has never done. It turns out that Dr. Novak has a Ph.D. in aeronautic engineering! I have a Ph.D. in microbiology. (I don't use the Dr. honorific because no Ph.D. uses that terminology). His Ph.D. has as much relevance as if I used mine to design a spaceship to Mars. My lab mate researched anaerobic bacteria for his Ph.D. For four years, I watched my friend's techniques and know what it takes in terms of specialized glassware, oxygen absorbing reagents, etc., to achieve anaerobic growth. That doesn't happen in an aquarium with Rube Goldberg devices. Frankly, it's laughable.
Like you, I also love angelfish. (Sometimes I think I like angels better than discus.) But the longer I keep them, the more I appreciate the dramatic difference between these two species. Underwater videos show discus habits with zero plants, rushing water and no other fish in their vicinity. Underwater videos of angelfish show lots of plants, placid water and lots of other fish around. These two species, which people like to keep together, evolved in completely different environments. After thousands of generations of inbreeding in hatcheries, both fish have learned to make do in glass boxes. They're not thriving, they're just making do. So if you want to optimize for the best growth, then you need to consider their needs.
I keep a small fish room with ~10 tanks going, including 2 quarantine tanks. Most people who visit are underwhelmed by what they see versus what they expect. I don't keep many fish, but I want every single one to be a fish I can be proud to show off. If not, they go into the auction - or the freezer. Back when we had local fish shows, I want my fish to win every category I enter. I want my fish to place at NADA shows. At this age, I probably can't sustain this hobby for another decade. So I have very clear objectives as to what I want to accomplish.
Re: Small, Small, Daily WCs
Water change myth...... To better understand what is needed in the way of water changes with discus you must first divide them into three distinct groups. Juvies under the age of 4 to 5 months, juvies age 5 months to 1 year and adults. IMO, each of these three groups have very different requirements when it comes to water changes. .....post #5.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...er-Change-Myth
Re: Small, Small, Daily WCs
Vinnie, we all do what works for us. Heck, I give my last feeding after I do WC in the evenings. Nobody does that! Stick with what you're doing for as long as it works for you.
Re: Small, Small, Daily WCs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
seanyuki
Water change myth...... To better understand what is needed in the way of water changes with discus you must first divide them into three distinct groups. Juvies under the age of 4 to 5 months, juvies age 5 months to 1 year and adults. IMO, each of these three groups have very different requirements when it comes to water changes. .....post #5.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...er-Change-Myth
That's why I like Larry.
My only disagreement is with adult discus. Even though growth slows down a lot after 18 months, I find constant large water changes is often the difference between a 6" discus and a 7" fish. And the problem with having 7" discus swimming in your tanks is ... that 6" fish look stunted. :p
Re: Small, Small, Daily WCs
That’s great if it works for you.
I think observing what a farm does generally gives a good indication of requirements. Yes I know their tanks are usually overcrowded and heavily fed. But they also change 300-400% water daily. I guess it also depends on what you want to get out of the hobby. I want monster sized discus in a monster sized tank, so monster wcs it is. My local distributors here in Aus also run the daily wc and the results are in their fish, and reputation. I often notice if I do say 150% daily wcs, you’d swear I was keeping piranhas lol.
Bacteria have plenty to feed on, as fish are always producing waste, and it being instantly converted down the nitrogen cycle. My tap water also contains small amounts of nitrites,so it’s important that it can be quickly converted by a large BB colony.
Re: Small, Small, Daily WCs
Vinnie, I LOOOVE these type of threads... it's not controversial at all but ignites many opinions and experiences (7-10+ years ago you would've been lynched upside down with the rope around your nutters... I HATED those responses).
My random, misc thoughts:
When in Hampton Roads, VA in mid 90s, I had discus (and shouldn't have... I was 12 and kept them until leaving for college) and I did old school WCs with buckets and short siphon while refilling with tap. Discus were happy, not shy, ate EVERYTHING... but sucked regarding growth rate. HOWEVER, I gave a few "early stunted" fish to neighborhood buddy (Craig) who's parents used well water only. Within 4 months those discus had a 1-1.5" growth spurt with only 1 50% WC a week... in an overcrowded 20 gallon tamk!!!!!:eek: (plants were growing OUT of the tank as well + even 4 blue rams were well over 3").
-not all well water is created equal... but Craig's well water was like if the fountain of youth and Viagra had a baby.
You're in TN, right? Even if on tap, I'm betting your water has more minerals and harder than mine (and I bet the minerals you have are heavy in the categories of the ones you want if keeping discus...)
-That said, what's the average size discus you have that you first got when they were 2.5-4 months old?
Regardless, I'd love to see you do an experiment that I wish a LOT of us would do --> from same hatch, pick 16 2 month old fry (ALL of same size with only a deviation of +/_ .25mm), split into 2 groups with each having their own 40 gallon, and do your daily WC regime in one but 80% in the other. Do it for 10 months then show: average size, smallest size, then largest (to show dispersion of legnths).
Re: Small, Small, Daily WCs
I wholeheartedly agree with Francis and Willie's post #3 and 4. It all depends on what you want to get out of the fish.
If you want giant full rounded big healthy discus - water changes are absolutely a necessity.
If you want them to just survive and possibly grow large (but not to full capacity) you need large frequent water changes.
In fact I'll go one up on that. Not only water changes, but a stable CLEAN system with adequate biofiltration that can properly cycle. When I did my large water changes, my fish grew from 2.5 to 4.5 SO fast. But when I started to hit issues with my water chemistry, they took a hit to their growth. I still have some that are near 6" but I will always know that their growth was hampered due to my lack of experience.
Like what Elliot said about experimenting - if I had the resources, space, and time, I would definitely do something like that and document.
Re: Small, Small, Daily WCs
Shan, I was like you only a matter of months ago and didn't have the space but now with the new house I do! If I can get a batch going then I will see what I can do so that you can live vicariously through me!
Re: Small, Small, Daily WCs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pastry
Vinnie, I LOOOVE these type of threads... it's not controversial at all but ignites many opinions and experiences (7-10+ years ago you would've been lynched upside down with the rope around your nutters... I HATED those responses).
My random, misc thoughts:
When in Hampton Roads, VA in mid 90s, I had discus (and shouldn't have... I was 12 and kept them until leaving for college) and I did old school WCs with buckets and short siphon while refilling with tap. Discus were happy, not shy, ate EVERYTHING... but sucked regarding growth rate. HOWEVER, I gave a few "early stunted" fish to neighborhood buddy (Craig) who's parents used well water only. Within 4 months those discus had a 1-1.5" growth spurt with only 1 50% WC a week... in an overcrowded 20 gallon tamk!!!!!:eek: (plants were growing OUT of the tank as well + even 4 blue rams were well over 3").
-not all well water is created equal... but Craig's well water was like if the fountain of youth and Viagra had a baby.
You're in TN, right? Even if on tap, I'm betting your water has more minerals and harder than mine (and I bet the minerals you have are heavy in the categories of the ones you want if keeping discus...)
-That said, what's the average size discus you have that you first got when they were 2.5-4 months old?
Regardless, I'd love to see you do an experiment that I wish a LOT of us would do --> from same hatch, pick 16 2 month old fry (ALL of same size with only a deviation of +/_ .25mm), split into 2 groups with each having their own 40 gallon, and do your daily WC regime in one but 80% in the other. Do it for 10 months then show: average size, smallest size, then largest (to show dispersion of legnths).
Thanks Bro.
I think you are right. Where you are in the world and your water chemistry plays a huge part in what you can and cannot do.
I don't like to catch my fish to measure them, but I can tell you this. I bought a few 5" from Miranda and all the others have caught up in size. Everyone is as big as my hand or bigger.
That would indeed to be a good experiment to try. Please know however, I am just to lazy to do stuff like that! ; ^ )
Again, I am not out to make dinner sized fish nor would I want them that big. Just more and bigger tanks that way. I just want them happy, healthy and alert. When I was in the koi hobby, I never strived to have "show quality" koi. First of all I could not afford them and secondly, I cannot see having a fish worth $10K swimming around in my backyard, unprotected while I was at work. I knew folks that spent a lot more than that on one fish. Tens of thousands of $$$. Fun to look at but wow, what a responsibility.
I am the same way with my guitars. I can make just about any guitar sound like I want it to. Cheap or expensive. I have a couple of very expensive pieces. However, I hardly ever play them. My friends know me for playing 3-$500 guitars. And I get to play right along side with some of the big boys. One of the most admired players in Nashville plays a $250 guitar (Fender Squier) and a cheap solid state amp as well. Even Vince Gill looks up to this guy. Not really sure why I said all that other than I am really not out to knock myself out over any hobby or craft. Fun is fun, but it can also become work and an obsession. That's just not me. I am NOT saying people here are obsessed. Most everyone here is enjoying the hobby just as they wish, and hopefully they are getting out of the hobby exactly what they want. This is obviously a hobby that you get out of it as much as you put in, never more.
Nancy does bees out on the back of the ranch. She goes to the bee meetings monthly. They are always talking about doing this and that. Trying to get rid of the mites, going to great lengths of work and effort and risk. Just one thing after another. Nancy hardly ever opens our hives at all. A couple of weeks ago, one bee member came over and they opened our hives, only to find thousands and thousands of healthy, happy, productive bees with a MESS of honey. Again, Nancy just keeps her hands out of there and lets the bees do their thing with little help other than she set up their environment correctly to begin with.
I guess I am a lazy hobbyist. I do enjoy the work that is required. But I try not to let it control me to the point of me serving the hobby instead of the other way around.
Re: Small, Small, Daily WCs
Good thread guys, just wanted to add my two cents to it. First I'm using Dr. Novak's anoxic filtration system (BCB) in my 125-gallon discus tank with 10 discus plus tankmates. also have a 40-gallon breeder tank with a slow moving plenum with four discus and a few tankmates. I don't test my tanks and just do a 50% weekly WC straight from the tap treated with Seachem safe. Both tanks are doing great and negative fish issues. This works for me and I've been keeping discus for about 11 yrs now and I won't change a thing in this stage of the game.....
Re: Small, Small, Daily WCs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pastry
Regardless, I'd love to see you do an experiment that I wish a LOT of us would do --> from same hatch, pick 16 2 month old fry (ALL of same size with only a deviation of +/_ .25mm), split into 2 groups with each having their own 40 gallon, and do your daily WC regime in one but 80% in the other. Do it for 10 months then show: average size, smallest size, then largest (to show dispersion of legnths).
This was done back in 2018. Read "Forum: Discus Grow Out Challenger Contest 2018" threads. The results clearly showed the impact of large, daily water changes on young discus.
Re: Small, Small, Daily WCs
Willie, similar to the 2018 contest (which I loved!) but definitely different. Each person would have 2 groups.
Vinnie, I already love the hell out of your honesty! Usually I am too lazy as well but with the extra space I have just come into, I am in the mindset of " working and thinking hard and order to be lazy and not think much at all" :P. I am almost done hard Plumbing my new water change system and it is so much easier! As for tanks for raising a few groups, I will definitely put them in my detached garage and I already have extra water aging barrels and water aging barrel right there and can simply believe everything set up so all I have to do is the drain, hit a button to turn the pump on to refill, and then turn on nozzle to refill Barrel. All while picking my nose, taking a shot of Fireball, kicking out the neighborhood kids that my kids constantly have over, and listening play whatever game is on! I am currently in heaven and usually don't have this luck so I am totally awaiting getting hit by lightning on a sunny day or hit by a Mack truck when going to the mailbox :antlers: I won't always be raising breathe, but I know my lucky and certainly cannot say I want to do at once because I never get something right on the first try. Might take two or three for me to crack the code but I will document each one so any value out of my failures can be passed along! I just really want certain brown base red strains with a little bit of striations on some (and Heckle bars a bonus but not counting on it) so I can eventually populate my show Tanked with a group of discus and I create. After that, I don't see myself to continue raising any that is regularly at all. Maybe once or twice more in my lifetime but I'm good. As long as I set it up so that it is easy for me to do on days that I don't feel like doing what I'm supposed to do, then I will meet my personal mark on being successful with raising a spawn ( the right way, because I've raised several in the past but really all I did was leave several pairs in a community tank who spawned and were awesome and raised fry themselves without any help... but the young ones didn't develop good at all sense I sucked at the last house on setting up a system that didn't require me to haul out hoses and pumps and whatnot). As for big discus... I've definitely add some happy fish that didn't make it to 6 in buy it because when I started off a while back, and wild discus for cheaper than domestic discus, I fell in love with big discus. To me, it knocks me out of my socks when I see a pair or a group of discus where they are all 6.5 to 7 plus inches. I can't explain why, and I don't know I, but they just have that effect on me. He would think I'd be a much better hobbyist saying that but I just have to keep working harder to be lazy yet do you say that I set it up for big discus. I'm getting there! But like I tell everyone about anything I do, set the bar low for me! That way I can always exceed your expectations! LMAO
Roland, I definitely want to experiment with that and the future! I don't contribute much to that thread that is pretty long but I am silently following it! I am still a skeptic by I have followed you long enough that I always love seeing what you put out there and definitely push the I believe button often with what you say. If I can knock out my own little personal two group experiment then afterwards I might give you a shout over private message to see how to do another experiment with anorexic filtration
