Getting the WOW Affect with Allot Less Work- Design and Servicing the Purigen Reactor

Paul,

Thanks for the in depth response. I will ponder your comments and make updates every few days.

For testing, I am using API 6-1 Test Strips and API Ammonia Test Strips. I was seeing some nitrite shortly after adding the purigen. I think the feces was dissolving and settling on the bottom like dust between daily water changes. The two large sponge filters were also trapping the dissolved feces. Twice I tested the water just after squeezing the sponges and saw signs of nitrite. Since removing the sponges and making the changes listed above, the parameters have been a flat 0. I also use an ammonia alert in my tank to signal me if anything is happening that I haven't noticed.

Thanks again for your help.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OC Discus

Paul,

Thanks for the in depth response. I will ponder your comments and make updates every few days.

For testing, I am using API 6-1 Test Strips and API Ammonia Test Strips. I was seeing some nitrite shortly after adding the purigen. I think the feces was dissolving and settling on the bottom like dust between daily water changes. The two large sponge filters were also trapping the dissolved feces. Twice I tested the water just after squeezing the sponges and saw signs of nitrite. Since removing the sponges and making the changes listed above, the parameters have been a flat 0. I also use an ammonia alert in my tank to signal me if anything is happening that I haven't noticed.

Thanks again for your help.

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OC Discus,

Sounds as if you are making significant progress. My understanding of where you are right now is that the water is crystal clear, that the nitrates are zero, algae and slime are no longer forming on the glass, and that the feces, while not entirely dissolving, is breaking up. Please let me know if any of this is not accurate.

Would suggest that you keep close monitoring of the Purigen beads to assure that they are still moving around in the bags. It's quite possible that the fine mesh of the bags will begin to become clogged because there is no mechanical filter on the intake. I expect that you will get improved results with the feces if water circulation is increased and the sand is removed from the tank.

Good luck with your experiment. I feel pretty sure that your headed in the right direction.

Paul

Quote:

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Originally Posted by afriend

OC Discus,

Sounds as if you are making significant progress. My understanding of where you are right now is that the water is crystal clear, that the nitrates are zero, algae and slime are no longer forming on the glass, and that the feces, while not entirely dissolving, is breaking up. Please let me know if any of this is not accurate.

Would suggest that you keep close monitoring of the Purigen beads to assure that they are still moving around in the bags. It's quite possible that the fine mesh of the bags will begin to become clogged because there is no mechanical filter on the intake. I expect that you will get improved results with the feces if water circulation is increased and the sand is removed from the tank.

Good luck with your experiment. I feel pretty sure that your headed in the right direction.

Paul

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Paul,

Thanks again for your suggestions. You are correct that the water is crystal clear, nitrates are 0 and the glass is staying clean. The feces are also dissolving, floating up, breaking apart, and going into the filters. The purigen beads are actually circulating better today than they were in the video.

A couple of things different about my setup are: 1) water is not being flushed over the top daily, and 2) I have a smaller bio system. I have three mechanical filters running in the 55g- 2 designed for the system and the Mag 350. All three are doing mechanical filtration. The two Whispers will get clean floss twice per week to keep flow maximized. The mag will get a clean micron filter when it is noticeably darkened or the flow has slowed noticeably. The purigen will also be replaced/recharged when it darkens or becomes clogged. So far the pouches are too small to become clogged, and there is plenty of space around the pouches for larger waste to be pulled into the micron filter.

The only thing I'm not agreeing on is that I am counting on the thin sand bed to host additional beneficial bacteria and help with the nitrification process, since I don't have a canister dedicated for this purpose. The sand, in my opinion, looks better than the dissolving feces that was powdering up the bottom. I observed that the beneficial bacteria needed more space to colonize, and was settling on the bottom between water changes. I think I have enough flow, combined with regular large water changes, to prevent the buildup of solids.

I may be wrong about the sand bed, and feel free to correct me. I previously removed all substrate and sterilized the tank. I know that parasites are no longer an issue. I think a thin layer of sand, in my case, will help with the nitrification process and improve the general appearance. Time will tell.

Today is day 3 since the last 75% water change and all levels are still 0- Including nitrate. I have also, with this experiment, cut back from overfeeding multiple times a day to a good feeding three times a day. This has helped keep waste out of the filters and off the bottom.

I forgot to mention my top three priorities, in order:

1) The Health of the Fish
2) The Appearance of the Tank
3) Reducing My Time Working on It.

If the fish are healthy with the addition of sand, it helps achieve my second and third goals of 2) Appearance, and 3) Less Time...
If the sand becomes unhealthy, I'll reconsider it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OC Discus

I forgot to mention my top three priorities, in order:

1) The Health of the Fish
2) The Appearance of the Tank
3) Reducing My Time Working on It.

If the fish are healthy with the addition of sand, it helps achieve my second and third goals of 2) Appearance, and 3) Less Time...
If the sand becomes unhealthy, I'll reconsider it.

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OC Discus,

Thanks for listing your priorities as this helps. My response here is based on my understanding of your system as it is configured and working now.

Health of the fish: The addition of the Purigen reactor has already accomplished this because it will greatly reduce the dissolved organic compounds (DOCs) in your water. (I believe that the Purigen reactor accomplishes this better than any amount of water exchange. That's because the Purigen works 24/7 while water exchange works intermittently and one cannot replace all of the water anyhow.) Having said that, water exchange is still important, but for reasons other than removing DOCs. Shortly after I added a Purigen reactor to my tank, I noticed that the fish were more colorful, held their fins more erect, and displayed less aggression. I believe that these are signs that the fish are healthier. So from the standpoint of fish health, I think your there.

Appearance of the tank: You have achieved the objective of eliminating algae and slime buildup. This greatly improves tank appearance, especially with the improvement in water clarity. The only objective that you have not fully achieved is to get the feces to dissolve completely. You stated that it breaks up and becomes trapped in your filter system, but there's still some left. At this point, I am 90% certain that improved water circulation in your tank will accomplish this. The circulation should be great enough so that there is some slight motion of the feces. If you can get the feces to move slightly when there is sand in the tank, then by all means leave the sand there. I would suggest adding four bubble lift tubes, one in each corner, to get the improvement in circulation. Make sure the lift tubes go as low as possible without picking up sand. Perhaps this will create enough circulation even though the sand is present.

Time working on it: you are left with a tradeoff. Time spent on trying to get the feces to dissolve vs time spent cleaning it up with a vacuum.

What I would like to tell you is how well this system works in my tank. In the morning when I first observe my fish, there is such a small amount of feces, that I have to look very carefully to find any at all. That's because its been all night since they last ate. After feeding, there is some fresh feces, but it will disappear within an hour or two. Thus the tank is cleaner than I could ever accomplish using the vacuum method.

You may be satisfied with your system the way it is now. I think we can agree that it is better than when you first started. This is of course for you to decide.

Hope this is helpful for you.

Paul

Paul,

Just an update. Today is the second or third day without any vacuuming, as I've had a very bad head and chest cold. As of this moment, all feces has totally dissolved and been removed from the tank except one or two small pieces. This morning there were about 3 fairly large black solid pieces, about half the size of an English Pea. Even those have broken down, dissolved, and been sucked up by the filters. I currently don't have any decorations in the tank, so nothing is obstructing the water flow. Two of my filters pull in water from about 1/2 way up the tank- one on each end. The other filter pulls water from the bottom and is located in the middle. I would like to add a decoration, like an artificial log or tree stump. However, the poop tends to gather around these things and they block the flow of the water. We'll see.

So far I am very happy with the purigen reactor. Tomorrow I'll do a 75% water change, put clean floss in my 2 hang on the back filters, and vacuum the sand. I might wipe the glass one last time for good measure, though it doesn't look like it needs it. Nitrates, ammonia, and nitrite remain at 0. The water and glass remain crystal clear. Also, as you said, the fish look very healthy in their color, fins, eyes, etc. Two of my fish were turning orange after feeding beefheart exclusively for about three weeks. Slowly their color is going back to normal.

I hope the good results continue. We shall see. Thank you again.

BTW- Where did your artificial reef come from? The guys on the tv show "Fish Tank Kings" specialize in those. Their business is called, living color.

Also, you ever get a build up of debris under the reef? How do you maintain that?

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Originally Posted by OC Discus

Paul,

Just an update. Today is the second or third day without any vacuuming, as I've had a very bad head and chest cold. As of this moment, all feces has totally dissolved and been removed from the tank except one or two small pieces. This morning there were about 3 fairly large black solid pieces, about half the size of an English Pea. Even those have broken down, dissolved, and been sucked up by the filters. I currently don't have any decorations in the tank, so nothing is obstructing the water flow. Two of my filters pull in water from about 1/2 way up the tank- one on each end. The other filter pulls water from the bottom and is located in the middle. I would like to add a decoration, like an artificial log or tree stump. However, the poop tends to gather around these things and they block the flow of the water. We'll see.

So far I am very happy with the purigen reactor. Tomorrow I'll do a 75% water change, put clean floss in my 2 hang on the back filters, and vacuum the sand. I might wipe the glass one last time for good measure, though it doesn't look like it needs it. Nitrates, ammonia, and nitrite remain at 0. The water and glass remain crystal clear. Also, as you said, the fish look very healthy in their color, fins, eyes, etc. Two of my fish were turning orange after feeding beefheart exclusively for about three weeks. Slowly their color is going back to normal.

I hope the good results continue. We shall see. Thank you again.

BTW- Where did your artificial reef come from? The guys on the tv show "Fish Tank Kings" specialize in those. Their business is called, living color.

Also, you ever get a build up of debris under the reef? How do you maintain that?

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OC Discus,

Sorry to hear about your cold, hope it gets better real soon.

So as I understand where your tank is right now is that you have pretty much achieved the performance objectives (water clarity, lack of algae/slime and and dissolving/disintegration of feces. The only performance objective that you have not achieved is the ability to clean the surface debris, and this is due to the differences in our methods of water exchange. What you have yet to achieve is the objective of going an entire month without any tank maintenance. This is due to the differences in our approach to mechanical filtration. However, I'm quite sure that you will discover that you can maintain pristine clean conditions in your tank with your existing setup and enjoy a reasonable reduction in the effort to keep it that way.

If you have not already discovered it, there will be a large increase in the amount of debris trapped in your mechanical filters. This is due to the fact that the feces contains a lot of suspended solids. Thats why my system has a very large pleated filter surface area. It's large enough to contain all of the suspended solids for an entire month.

Would like to address your Purigen reactor. I think your approach holds great promise for becoming an effective reactor, and I admire you for coming up with the idea. I considered using a Magnum 350, but dismissed it because I didn't think of the possibility of placing the Purigen bags vertical in the canister. The use of your concept is not fully proven yet because you need to use it for a few months first. One nice thing about your reactor concept is that the motion of the Purigen beads can be observed while in use. I see two possible problems (both of which could probably be overcome with some minor modifications). The first is that the bags that contains the Purigen beads has a very fine mesh. I suspect that this fine mesh may become plugged before the month is over (the material that could possibly plugg it up is too small to be seen). The best way to find out is to try it. I hope my hunch turns out incorrect. As you say, time will tell. The second possible problem is the cost of the Purigen bags. Purigen in loose form is considerably cheaper.

I found that some of the feces tended to gather around the decorations and required longer to dissolve. I solved this problem by moving the bubble lift tubes around and changing the location of the decorations somewhat until I got good results.

I obtained the artificial reef from fishtanksdirect.com. Look under "instant reef artificial". It's model R060. I made changes to it by cutting it with a saw so that it would fit in my tank. It comes apart in four pieces that makes it easy to get in and out of the tank. I think that Living Color either makes these reefs or makes the corals that are contained on it. If you don't like the specific corals that come with the reef, you can cut them off and replace it with others using aquarium silicone to glue it on.

As to debris collecting under the artificial reef, there is some, but it is a very small amount. I remove it when I do my monthly cleaning. One thing that I have stated before, but not emphasized too much, concerns the effectiveness of Purigen to remove organic compounds from everything in the tank. I rather suspect that the debris that does collect under the decorations contain very few organic compounds, and thus do not cause problems in the tank. For example, when I feed my fish with pure beef heart (beef heart with nothing added), it turns white within a minute or so if the fish don't eat it. It does this because the Purigen "sucks" the blood out in a hurry. Then the white stuff dissolves to. So the debris under the decorations probably contain few DOCs. Another example of the effectiveness of Purigen is illustrated by the "sniff" test. When I remove the decorations from the tank, I perform the sniff test by placing the item close to my nose while it is still wet. It passes the sniff test if it still smells fresh. It's the DOCs that will make it smell bad. I have had items in the tank for up to six months without cleaning them and they still pass.

Hope you get better real soon.

Paul

Paul,

Thanks for the good wishes about the cold. I trust it'll be cleared up in a couple of days.

I think I miscommunicated about the surface debris. I am not having any debris on the surface. All 3 filters are stirring the surface and it is crystal clear. I was making reference to the air lift tubes pushing everything to the top where it is flushed out by your automated system. My filters pull from the middle and bottom of the tank instead of the top. And when I change water, I will be removing it from the bottom. I was wondering about the benefit of the lift tubes- I suppose they serve to lift the debris from the bottom, help it break down and be removed by the filters or flushed out by the water change. They would probably be beneficial either way. I have seen airstones, but where do you obtain the tubes? I have a couple of airstones that I've run in the past, and a couple of sponge filters that have tubes on them. I suppose I could get the same effect from the sponge units by just removing the sponge. They have a weighted base rather than suction cups.

As for the mesh bags- I'm sure they won't last a month between cleaning, but should last 2-3 weeks. And I know I'll have to do water changes and put clean floss in the HOB's. I've already bought the four replacement pouches to swap out the purigen while cleaning/recharging. Long term I will have to evaluate whether to replace the pouches or switch to the loose form with a bag. I was confident the pouches would fit around the mag filter, but was not sure how the loose product would work. I saw a media reactor on sale for about $79.00 on one website. I think it is the one Josie posted earlier. That is always another option.

BTW- The flow through the pouches is increasing every day. I'll try to get a pic tomorrow. The whole contents of the pouch are visibly moving rather than just small areas. Is that what you mean by "fluidized"? Suspended in fluid?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OC Discus

Paul,

Thanks for the good wishes about the cold. I trust it'll be cleared up in a couple of days.

I think I miscommunicated about the surface debris. I am not having any debris on the surface. All 3 filters are stirring the surface and it is crystal clear. I was making reference to the air lift tubes pushing everything to the top where it is flushed out by your automated system. My filters pull from the middle and bottom of the tank instead of the top. And when I change water, I will be removing it from the bottom. I was wondering about the benefit of the lift tubes- I suppose they serve to lift the debris from the bottom, help it break down and be removed by the filters or flushed out by the water change. They would probably be beneficial either way. I have seen airstones, but where do you obtain the tubes? I have a couple of airstones that I've run in the past, and a couple of sponge filters that have tubes on them. I suppose I could get the same effect from the sponge units by just removing the sponge. They have a weighted base rather than suction cups.

As for the mesh bags- I'm sure they won't last a month between cleaning, but should last 2-3 weeks. And I know I'll have to do water changes and put clean floss in the HOB's. I've already bought the four replacement pouches to swap out the purigen while cleaning/recharging. Long term I will have to evaluate whether to replace the pouches or switch to the loose form with a bag. I was confident the pouches would fit around the mag filter, but was not sure how the loose product would work. I saw a media reactor on sale for about $79.00 on one website. I think it is the one Josie posted earlier. That is always another option.

BTW- The flow through the pouches is increasing every day. I'll try to get a pic tomorrow. The whole contents of the pouch are visibly moving rather than just small areas. Is that what you mean by "fluidized"? Suspended in fluid?

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O C Discus,

The primary purpose of the lift tubes is to increase circulation of water at the bottom of the tank where the feces is. Let me start by explaining a simple experiment. Take a glass of water and add a teaspoon of rock salt to it, and then wait. It will take along time for the rock salt to dissolve. Now gently stir the water and the rock salt will dissolve much faster. End of experiment. What you are trying to accomplish is to get the organic compounds in the feces to dissolve so that it will breakup (the organic compounds hold it together). This is greatly assisted when there is motion of water near the feces. The bubble lift tube transports water from the bottom of the tank to the top. The water at the top of the tank then flows to the bottom to replace the water going up the tube, thus causing currents. I know for a fact that the bubble lift tubes greatly assist in the breakup of the feces, because I performed a simple experiment: turn off the air supply to the air stones, and the feces takes much longer to dissolve.

You can make your own bubble lift tubes by purchasing the individual parts. Clear rigid thin wall tubing can be obtained at petmountain.com . You will need two sizes, 1" OD and 3/16" OD. The flow spout can be obtained at thatfishplace.com . They call it a an elbow for a underground filter.

Fluidized means suspended in fluid. I have also noticed that the motion of Purigen improves somewhat after it is first used. Thats because Purigen is somewhat "sticky" when it is new. After it is in the reactor for a few days, it looses the stickiness.

I would like to ask you to do something for me. I am very interested in your Purigen reactor. I want you to keep me posted on how well your reactor is working. For example how often you service it and what you do to it when it is serviced. Also, closely monitor the motion of the Purigen beads in each of the four bags. Also, anything else about it.

Thanks Much.

Paul

Good morning Paul. It is good to hear from you. I will be happy to keep you updated on my reactor, as I am learning from you as I go.

Today I did the first large water change 80% since putting the system online. I think it ran 4 days without servicing except vacuum a few large pieces of feces the first two days. Observations after 4 days:
1. The tank glass, bottom, and water were much cleaner at the time of bi-weekly water change,
2. Floss in Hob Filters was less dirty and could go a week without servicing.
3. Purigen is flowing well in the canister and micron filter is ok.
4. Fish are all healthy, hungry and active.

Ive started a new test today. I want to see if the system can run 7 days without service and maintain water quality and appearance.
I added an airstone in each corner of the tank to increase circulation. Now the surface is being broken in 5 different places.

Ill try to post a video or two and a couple of pictures here taken today.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/04/mame3e9u.jpg


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Ive been noticing the clarity of my fish's eyes today:

The gold ring separating the pupil from the red part has come out on this bp

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/04/8y4enupa.jpg

The eyes on the bd have gone from dark to bright red

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/04/vyhy5y8e.jpg

And the eyes on my runt have gone from almost black to red

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/04/hajyjyve.jpg


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Since 80% wc yesterday, almost all poop has dissolved. Below is a vid of the movement of the poop on the bottom before it breaks up, dissolves, and gets filtered out. These small pieces are all there is today, after lunch, about 30 hours since water change.

http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/...psu6mzivoy.jpg

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Originally Posted by OC Discus

Since 80% wc yesterday, almost all poop has dissolved. Below is a vid of the movement of the poop on the bottom before it breaks up, dissolves, and gets filtered out. These small pieces are all there is today, after lunch, about 30 hours since water change.

http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/...psu6mzivoy.jpg

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O C Discus,

Good video. You got good water motion, more than enough to get the feces to dissolve, even with the sand. I would like to know if sand can be included in an aquarium with lots of decorative items, and still allow enough water motion to get the feces to dissolve. I've always wanted to have sand, but was concerned about the build up of crap in it. The Purigen does such a good job of removing organic compounds, that I think the addition of sand can be accomplished if the addition of sand does not hinder the water motion.

Thanks for posting the video.

Paul

Paul,

Pool filter sand is heavy enough that it is not shifted around, but fine enough that it forms a solid bed that keeps large pieces of waste from getting trapped. I think it also provides extra bio filtration- as the bb colonizes the surface of the sand and helps consume the fine waste/helps break down the large waste. My only question at this point is the long term build up of fine particulate matter. But as you suggested with your system, what is left behind probably does not contain much organic matter and a good vacuuming, either weekly or monthly, should remove much of what is there. I think in combination with the other elements of your system, it would not be an issue and may even enhance the filtration system. I'm no expert and welcome correction on this matter. I have just ordered an artificial stump as a centerpiece decoration. The pointed ends are all facing down, creating hiding places for the fish and eliminating potentially dangerous contact.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...m?pcatid=19344

I'm starting to enjoy the hobby again now that I've gotten past issues of disease and water quality. I'm willing to service my micron filter and purigen every couple of weeks if that's what it takes to keep pristine water between water changes. The combination of the micron filter, the purigen reactor, and the sandbed for bio filtration have made my water and tank more attractive than its ever been. The water at the surface, under the LED lights is like clean glass.

I think I will monitor my system before adding any new elements. I like the idea of having dedicated canisters: 1) Pleated Micron Filter, 2) Purigen Reactor, 3) Bio Canister- sand or media. Looks like those moving sand bed filters would be a cost effective way to create the bio filter and the purigen reactor. My mag 350 already has a micron filter.