Chad Hughes; Please help re: Substrate change out/Nitrates planted Discus tank

Hello Chad~ My husband and I are turning to you for a miracle (no pressure - lol). We really searched this site and both agreed you sound most qualified. Here's what we have, what are concern is, what we think we need to do and are asking for your help with with; We have three tanks. The one we are writing about is our 112 gallon acrylic tank with an overspill and a 20 gallon sump with bio balls underneath. We run a Rio 3100 up from the sump, have a small power head on the opposite side of the overspill, and we have added a blower fan to the bottom (for circulation.) We have adequate air wands and keep the temp between 81-83 degrees. It was a salt water tank we bought used and converted to freshwater. It has been established for 18 months. It houses primarily our beloved Discus (ironically most of which exactly like the same strains you have) but they do have other great tank mates including a black ghost, two large columbian sharks, and angel, two reed/rope fish, one very small pleco. We used to have rams (which bread) but, and here is our nagging problem... NITRATES. (We never feed "live" feeders due to health risks and also to not encourage aggressive behavior - everyone gets along "swimmingly") We feed twice daily a varied healthy diet and did get "over feeding" under control last year. We have tried EVERYTHING and we are NOT shy about maintenance at all. I even keep a water chemistry spread sheet to try to figure out any possible variables in our water quality(s). The tank was originally started with tap water and a bottle of Dr. Tim's One and Only upon the advice of our LFS (we learned the hard way). We quickly started using only R/O and have used nothing but for the last seventeen months doing regular water changes. We have ALWAYS had a problem with Nitrates and phophates. I do have live plants (Amazons and Kyoto grass do best.) and DW. We have T5 lighting. We even bought a poly reactor and have tried EVERY type of media available over time - which we hate adding. And we have also tried "nothing" but nature and time. NOTHING helps. We want to balance our water as naturally as we can and keep these guys as healthy as possible. Seems we are having to "hospital tank" someone every other month. Either PH fluctuated or nitrates hit someone. I've saved most but have also had several heart breaks. So here we are, ready to tear down and remove the petco gravel substrate and replace it all with pool filter silica sand as our last hope to lower our nitrates (and?). One week in to our new endeavour and, no kidding, twelve stores, and at least fifty phone calls later, we can NOT find any PFS silica (we'd like white). We've searched it all, Pool supplies, Home centers, even sand blasters and quarries... Nothing but a bunch of don't-know-it-alls. Can you please offer ANY advice? Are we even heading in the right direction? We just want our tank to look like and mostly, be as healthy as your 150 gal planted Discus tank. WHAT'S YOUR SECRET? Thank you kindly for your time. I deeply apologize for such a lengthy message but figured it would beat all the back and forth threads if I gave you as much info as possible. Respectfully, Jody and George Williams

PH usually remains 6.8-7.0. Everyone thrives when it remains stable; though we know it sounds high for discus they are great and well acclimated when it is stable. We also check the PH in the tanks we buy any new discus from. We only have problems if our tank PH fluctuates too much or too often which I finally discovered was due to our R/O water vendor. I solved that problem by checking the new R/O while still in the bottles BEFORE doing water changes and, if needed, adding either Neut. Reg. or Discus Buffer (or combo) to water bottles and letting it adjust BEFORE we change water. It has helped stabilize.

your discus buffer has phosphate in it, and also RO water, mine at the house anyway , does not remove phosphates from the water, a D.I. system does. Nitrates are from overstocking the tank, you would need to do 90 percent water changes to keep them down from that much bio load in the tank. Sorry to chime in but I had the same issues and reliuctantly that is how I got things under control, alot less fish in the tank.

Jim

Maternal1,

First off, welcome to Simply Discus. It's great to have you on board!

Your situation is not a hard fix. Bottom line, keep things simple.

I'd start by taking tap water readings. Draw half gallon of water and test your tap water for pH, nitrate and phosphate. Let that half gallon of water sit for 24 hours with an airstone in it and test again. Record your results and let me know what you get.

Can I ask why you are using RO water? RO water can be tricky to work with. I'd be willing to bet the biggest impact on your discus is pH swing. Discus are pretty hardy but they are very sensitive to large pH swings. If your water tests yield positive results, I'd say that you should begin transitioning your tank to tap water. I wouldn't do that until we know what your tap readings are.

In regard to pH, never try and manipulate it. With tap water, your Ph will be what it is. a GH and KH test will show how readily your water will maintain steady pH. I like to see GH and KH at 4 points or higher. Your water will remain stable between water changes.

As mentioned by jimfur, the discus buffer contains phosphate and nothing will remove phosphate from your tank better than water changes. The problem is your new water has phosphate. Another source of phosphate could be a build up of debris in the gravel bed. This can also drive pH down. Sometimes this condition is referred to as "old tank syndrome". I would recommend a change of substrate. Gravel is never good is a discus tank. It's just too hard to keep clean. Many people use pool filter sand I use play sand. It's clean and cheap. Your choice.

You're on the right track. Let me know what your water readings are and I can make further recommendations.

Best wishes!

Hello All,

Not to hijack this thread in anyway as I am finding it very informative. You are suggesting Chad to keep discus in plain tap water providing the ph is a stable one? Many questions come up though as far as soft water for discus, TDS count around 100 (which you can't accomplish with straight tap water) and low gh and kh. Thanks for your advice and for helping clear things up for Maternal1 and everyone else.

DiscusLoverJeff,

No worries my friend.

Yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting. The OP stated that they keep domesticated discus. Domestic discus can readily adapt to tap water. All of my fish are kept in tap with a pH of near 8 and a TDS that ranges between 300 and 600, depending on the time of year.

Unless you are attempting to house wilds directly from the wild or are trying to get better hatch out rates during breeding, soft water is simply not necessary. Your tap water is far more consistent, easier to use and better for the fish in the long run.

Hope that helps!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DiscusLoverJeff

Hello All,

Not to hijack this thread in anyway as I am finding it very informative. You are suggesting Chad to keep discus in plain tap water providing the ph is a stable one? Many questions come up though as far as soft water for discus, TDS count around 100 (which you can't accomplish with straight tap water) and low gh and kh. Thanks for your advice and for helping clear things up for Maternal1 and everyone else.

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Chad, I will offer my input here too. My 18 domestic discus all live and thrive in our tap water which is way over ph8 and hardness so high I don't even measure it anymore. I drain half the tank every 72 hrs, add Safe, and put tap water (at correct temp) straight into the tank via a hose connected to my kitchen sink. I have raised these discus from 2" size or less. I have sand on the tank floor and plants attached to driftwood. Easy to maintain and I think it looks beautiful! I do realize there won't be any successful breeding in the tank but I don't want that anyway.
Barb

Barb,

Thank you for that input! You and I have similar water. Your methods are what I recommend as long as the tap pH doesn't swing after a day. I'll assume yours is stable since you don't need to age.

Thanks again Barb!

Yep, very stable, or I would have to age it. For additional info regarding water, today I finished turning my angelfish tank into the same set up as my discus tank. Removed gravel, put in sand, plants on wood and some plants planted in sand in pottery dishes. Same water changes and all that nasty gravel with foul stuff in it is gone forever!
Barb

Nice! Yeah, gravel is just too hard to maintain. Been there and done that over the years. :D

Thanks again Barb!

Well this is one great thread and has given me food for thought for my main tank. I age my ro/tap over a 24/48 hour period in 2 34 gallon holding barrels and add ph buffer if needed to keep things stable (around 6.5 ph and TDS under 150). So there is a lot of work going in to discus care but I never would have thought that tap water was a perfect solution for domestic discus or any other "Amazon" fish.

I am planning a tank for F1 wilds, but you would not advise tap for them correct?

Also, sand bottom sounds good and easy to clean, are you using pool filter sand? How much are you using in depth about an inch?

Thanks again for the advice!

Tap water works! I'd recommend aging if your pH shifts overnight. I would not recommend it for your F1 wilds unless their source water was tap. Are they captive bread?

Sand bottom of an inch or two works great! I use play sand. Others prefer pool sand. Your choice.

Best wishes!

No one has addressed your bio-balls so far. How often do you clean them? Unmaintained bioballs are nitrate factories. If you don't already do so routinely once a month, turn off the pump, pull them out of the sump, drain and wipe clean the sump, rinse the balls in a bucket of tank water, and replace all.