Whirling Disease?

[Hoppo1979]

Hi all, some help required for a newbie if possible. I have had my 180L tank for tropicals about 4 years. I decided to research and change to discus about 4 months ago. Having sought advice, read some books etc I took the plunge having made sure all parameters such as stronger heater, Ph etc were ok. Ran the tank for 4 weeks with 5 cardinal tetra, 5 black phantom tetra and a clown loach. My tank has never had any disease issues and other fishes such as gourami and silver dollars were transferred to a friend prior to the introduction of any discus.

I gradually added 6 discus on the advice of Maidenhead aquatics Derby. Ph is 7, no ammonia in a mature planted setup. Everything was perfect for about 6 weeks until the Blue discus about 3 inch in size started flying through the tank, smashing into the sides. It gradually got worse until the fish was clearly distressed and badly damaged. I removed the fish and euthanised it humanely. No other fish has shown this behaviour but I have lost two more fish in mysterious circumstances (fine one day, dead the next) things have been stable for 4 days and the other fish seem calm and normal. I am feeding a mixture of quality flake and sinking cichlids pellet from Wharf Aquatics Nottingham.

Water changes are up to 30% + a week, using treated tap water. Filtration is a Fluval 306 external canister running bioflow and active carbon, plus internal Juwel rIo 180 filter running standard sponges. carbon has been changed monthly.

I am baffled, there are no visible symptoms, I hope that this information is sufficient to gain some advice. I am down to 3 fish from the 6.

[Eddie]

For them to die off with no symptoms seems strange. Do you just find them floating?

[discuspaul]

That type of behavior can usually be attributed to a small number of things:

1.- An actual problem with water quality - dashing madly across the tank, ramming into the glass sides, trying to jump out, dark coloration - can be a sign of ammonia or nitrite poisoning. Sometimes, it only affects one or two fish out of a group at a time.

Perhaps you have had a mini-spike of some kind - is your test kit current (not expired) - it may not be accurate/reliable, particularly if you don't precisely follow the directions - make sure all your test kit chemical containers are very well shaken before usage.

I have had this problem and I narrowed it down to ammonia poisoning. As soon as I rectified this with large daily wcs, usage of Seachem Prime, and fixing the lack of sufficient beneficial bacterial colonization, the problem disappeared - almost overnite, and the fish returned to normal.

2.- Or, it could be due to the toxicity of sulphur dioxide, emanating from gas pocket(s) in the substrate (if you have some) that has surfaced in your tank.

3.- At times it can be attributed to some form of chemical toxicity from some spray or other product used in the household which has settled on the water surface.

4. In some less likely cases, it can be symptons of an internal parasitic invasion.

Have a look at plymouthdiscus.com (a U.K. website) in the section "Discus Health" - see the last, bottom-most article/section.

Hope this helps.

[Hoppo1979]

Thanks for the advice guys. I have been working very hard at water changes, doing much more than EVER as I am acutely aware of the requirement for clean water for Discus, so I would be surprised if this was the issue, that said I am very aware that all roads generally point to this. I am concerned I have bought a dodgy fish, although its one of the sole survivors thats shown no issues! It looks very skinny, usually quite dark in colour and I thought I saw a tiny white spot on its skin last night. The only thing that stopped me from removing it last night is my wifes words of wisdom - "surely that would have died first if infected with parasites" so I have left him in their. I carried out a 40% water change on Monday morning so I would say the last 2 weeks changes are up to 50% a week.

Substrate is a white coarse sand type. The decor is driftwood. I have always ensured that we never spray any aerosols near the tank so I am pretty sure it wont be that. I will check the dates on the test kits but I am sure they are valid until mid-2013. That said I have no Nitrate test kit so I may go and purchase one at lunch.

I really appreciate the replies so far. I love these fish and just hope I have the capability to keep them!

[Eddie]

Thanks for the advice guys. I have been working very hard at water changes, doing much more than EVER as I am acutely aware of the requirement for clean water for Discus, so I would be surprised if this was the issue, that said I am very aware that all roads generally point to this. I am concerned I have bought a dodgy fish, although its one of the sole survivors thats shown no issues! It looks very skinny, usually quite dark in colour and I thought I saw a tiny white spot on its skin last night. The only thing that stopped me from removing it last night is my wifes words of wisdom - "surely that would have died first if infected with parasites" so I have left him in their. I carried out a 40% water change on Monday morning so I would say the last 2 weeks changes are up to 50% a week.

Substrate is a white coarse sand type. The decor is driftwood. I have always ensured that we never spray any aerosols near the tank so I am pretty sure it wont be that. I will check the dates on the test kits but I am sure they are valid until mid-2013. That said I have no Nitrate test kit so I may go and purchase one at lunch.

I really appreciate the replies so far. I love these fish and just hope I have the capability to keep them!

Not necessarily, the sick fish (carrier) might be hanging on if it has a better immune system. Ill fish should always be isolated unless the entire tank is showing symptoms. This is especially true for internal parasites (flagellates, roundworms), because the parasite is transferred from fish to fish over time.

[Eddie]

Reported

[Skip]

no telling what kind of junk is in the water.. 30% water change per week is not good.. for 6 weeks may have weaken him.. and allowed a bug to get to him.. you added discus into a tank that already had fish.. and you said you added the 6 gradually.. did that mean.. you added additional fish at different times?

if you area really concerned.. you need to up it to at least 50% daily.. to make a real difference.

[Hoppo1979]

no telling what kind of junk is in the water.. 30% water change per week is not good.. for 6 weeks may have weaken him.. and allowed a bug to get to him.. you added discus into a tank that already had fish.. and you said you added the 6 gradually.. did that mean.. you added additional fish at different times?

if you area really concerned.. you need to up it to at least 50% daily.. to make a real difference.

Wow! If I need to change half the tank water a day I'm in a mess as I have a full time job! Maybe the remaining fish are going up for adoption! Might be converting it back to a community tank and sticking a shoal of tiger barbs in it or something!

I have just carried out a full water check using a brand new API kit. Water parameters are;

Nitrates 0
Nitrites 0
Ammonia 0
Ph 6.8
Water temp 82 degrees

I was half expecting a nitrate spike but now I'm really baffled!

[Skip]

20 gallons of water change per day.. for a week is nothing..

Most discus problems are caused by water quality..

Most Discus problems are cured by water quality..

[Hoppo1979]

20 gallons of water change per day.. for a week is nothing..

Most discus problems are caused by water quality..

Most Discus problems are cured by water quality..

Well that's made my decision then, I shall go to the shop on Saturday and strike a deal. Although the water tests are all good if a 40-50% water change per week isn't good enough then its not fair on the fish and I can't maintain any more. Thanks for your advice guys.

[Teshi]

I've had this "mad" dashing about the tank right after water changes. It started more right after the cold weather set in. I wasn't aging my water. I started aging my water and no more issues with it. BUT.. something I've noticed when seeing reports of the Mad dashing.. they all seem to be of a "blue" variety of fish. Just my observations.. The 2 that went dashing from my fish were both blue.. and in separate tanks.

[Skip]

i had a Red Turq do this..

upped water changes.. never saw him do it again.. turned into a very nice fish

[discuspaul]

And I had a Red Snake Skin, a Blue diamond, and 2 Golden Lollipops do this.

[Hoppo1979]

And I had a Red Snake Skin, a Blue diamond, and 2 Golden Lollipops do this.

Ok I thought I would update you all on the situation. Treated the tank with aquatic salt and de-wormed and anti gill fluked. The remaining fish seemed fine but the dark pinched discus wasn't improving. Tonight I looked at it closely and it had a 4mm worm like parasite on it so I have removed it and humanely euthanised it.

I have carried out a 50% water change. The last couple of weeks I have noticed the water out of the tank was rather smelly, but I put it down to our drain. Well tonight I decided to remove a grass I purchased from a fish show and upon removing it the stench of rotten egg nearly made me throw up. Oddly a small tetra was in the corner where this grass plant was and I noticed a bubble erupt from the substrate. I thought it was a bit odd at the time. I think this stupid plant has grown under the substrate, died and been releasing sulphur into the water poisoning my fish.

It's now a waiting game to see if my remaining 2 discus can survive. The lights are off to keep things subdued as there has been a lot of stress on them tonight. I will be doing another water change tomorrow to freshen things up.nmany thanks for the advice every one.